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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Mrs Comfortable
Doomheim
#4561 - 2014-10-03 00:13:34 UTC
I'm quite comfortable with these changes, as I am with most things and am in favour of making space bigger.

I would like to know if you would consider a couple of things?


  1. Watch lists - free intel on a fast moving force was acceptable, is it still?
  2. Locator agents - free intel on the location of fast moving forces was acceptable, is it still?


I would like to see watch lists become mutual acceptance and for locator agents to return the last station you docked in rather than your current system or only return your location if you are in a dockable ship/pod or already docked.

My opinion is free intel on slow moving forces is not a good mechanic and reduces strategic game play options and player interactions.

Thanks for the change and reading this beast of a thread, o7.
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#4562 - 2014-10-03 00:13:43 UTC
Adwokat Diabla wrote:
The idea that I cannot jump for a month at a time WILL make me unsub. I do not think this is an unrealistic response from any cap pilot. Limit this to a day or two at most, otherwise I see no point in continuing to subscribe a super pilot if I literally cannot play the game absent gates. (Which is NOT acceptable for a super) I guarantee you that you will lose enough subscriptions from super/titan pilots from this change that it will ultimately hurt the game much more then it will benefit it.


BIO or it didn't happen.
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#4563 - 2014-10-03 00:14:05 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:
I didn't find out until just last week that they weren't allowed to be in null sec. That was a shocker, but did explain a few things.


That statement is not accurate. EVE developers are definitely permitted to play the game in any region on their personal accounts.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#4564 - 2014-10-03 00:15:06 UTC
Talvorian Dex wrote:

Your statement is true only if demand is inelastic, but it's not. No one is forcing people to play Eve. No one is forcing players to use certain ships or fly in certain areas. When you make logistics and resupplying too difficult, you don't see increased costs, you see demand go away as people screw off and do something else.

This is an easy solution that doesn't actually solve anything. Fix the damn sov code, don't nerf things that have second-, third- and fourth-order consequences that will screw up the game.

After two years of players saying, "this is going to hell, here's how" and CCP doing nothing, they no longer have the goodwill and time to do something like this. Exempt jump freighters and find a way to move subcaps more easily (subcap blobs aren't as big of an issue, and can be countered, unlike super blobs), or this move is a catastrophe.


This isn't such a change that it's going to be prohibit people playing the game. Again, the tears and the melodrama.

Most of black/red frog services are to low sec anyways. What you'll see is the other major trade hubs outside of jita open up more, that's about it (and yay, also good for the game)

Talvorian Dex wrote:

Have you ever done a logistics run? Back and forth in a jump freighter can be 12 jumps. That's no longer possible. I don't care a bit about combat capitals jumping - I actually like that. It's the non-combat capital jumps that cause this thing to be ill-thought out and the consequence of a drunken brainstorming session, not a measured mechanic change.


Yes, you name it and I've done it.

What you're bitching about is doing it at a massive scale and across a massive distance. And that's what you don't get.

For once they recognized one of the more terrible abilities in this game and what's preventing a good regional environment. Who says YOU SHOULD BE ABLE to do such a thing quickly and easily, if at all.

These changes are most certainly going to be followed up with those to make null more self-sustaining. That's blatantly obvious.

Black frog will die, people will stop playing entirely and the sky will fall.
Write it down on a piece of paper so in 6 months you can read about how completely over the top and wrong you were here today.

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
smokeydapot
Moon Of The Pheonix
#4565 - 2014-10-03 00:15:10 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
smokeydapot wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Looking forward to getting this significant set of improvements for Nullsec released!

Big thanks to the whole CSM for their help with this process so far and the good work I know they'll continue to do as we consult with them going forward.

I want to remind people that this is just one step. We're not expecting it to fix everything overnight but it will be a very valuable step forward that we will keep building upon.


CCP Greyscale wrote:
Black ops we will look at again, definitely. Can't say what we'll decide, but it's clear from the discussion thus far that they need another pass.


To quote a previous dev from a news story i’ve just been reading I don’t hold my breath for future iterations of this “feature” this is also based on previous years of experience with eve and the devs of old and new.

previous dev wrote:
Without the time or resources to properly do so, many things were left half-delivered, to be iterated upon later – which never happened. CCP has an extensive track record of promising to return to features and never doing so


News article

My confidence is at an all time low in the belief that this "feature" will be visited upon any time within the next 5 years and they where working on 6 month schedules.

I see a future of battle rorqs and mass black ops fleets it looks funny but an industrial and a T2 BS projecting force rarther than capitals no that just sounds wrong to me.


If your really set on hitting jump drives hit them ALL before we end up with more "unintended gameplay".

Waits for the tears of the HTFU crowdCoolCoolCool


This however is the point of the new release cycle. It means that a team that did a feature can follow it and make changes based on what they are seeing. We JUST had them do another pass over the ceptors because they needed some tweeking, they also revisted the nestor rescently as well and made a few minor adjustments there. In addition we should see a second pass of industry soon with the invention and RE changes, as well as a few other things that have been revised. The old 6 month cycle made doing a second pass extremely difficult, in theory the new cycle makes doing a second or more pass very easy. I am quite happy with CCP's direction atm.


They are still to convince me and this is the last chance I give CCP and the Dev's ( don't believe me ccp check my overall sub time this year ).

And I'm teaching new players your game because you can't document it properly.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#4566 - 2014-10-03 00:15:30 UTC
Sigras wrote:

The CFC has more than enough cyno alts to continue to hot drop the entire galaxy unless you make it ridiculous like 1 ship per cyno or something crazy like that.


Fun fact: we have more than enough capital pilots to do that with these changes - and now that we'll be able to take gates with those capitals, we can move them around w/out your cyno-watchers' knowledge.
Hayley Enaka
Bookmark Both Sides
#4567 - 2014-10-03 00:15:31 UTC
The way people to choose to fight and operate in nullsec is now going to be alot more interesting when you can't have every able pilot in your alliance/coalition behind you at a moments notice. I'll be keeping a close eye on how the larger nullsec entities choose to react to these changes in game.
Talvorian Dex
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4568 - 2014-10-03 00:15:50 UTC
Quote:
People moved equipment before jump freighters existed.


If we're turning the clock back to where the game was before, can CCP design a POS code and sov mechanics that are actually somewhat decent instead of the garbage we have now?

Don't tell us to go back to the past when you've introduced new features, got us to subscribe and pay for them for the purpose of exploiting them, and don't be prepared to have us throw all your flaws and mistakes back in your face. It's insulting to us as players. We don't play this game five years ago, we play it now.

hell, if you're going to "go back to" where we were, why not just remove supers and titans entirely? Problem solved.

Writer of Target Caller, an Eve Online PvP blog, at http://targetcaller.blogspot.com
Viceversa
Cancer Therapy
Ginnungagap
#4569 - 2014-10-03 00:15:51 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
KIller Wabbit wrote:
I didn't find out until just last week that they weren't allowed to be in null sec. That was a shocker, but did explain a few things.


That statement is not accurate. EVE developers are definitely permitted to play the game in any region on their personal accounts.


Has anyone done JF run among any of you?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4570 - 2014-10-03 00:15:53 UTC
Adwokat Diabla wrote:
The idea that I cannot jump for a month at a time WILL make me unsub. I do not think this is an unrealistic response from any cap pilot. Limit this to a day or two at most, otherwise I see no point in continuing to subscribe a super pilot if I literally cannot play the game absent gates. (Which is NOT acceptable for a super) I guarantee you that you will lose enough subscriptions from super/titan pilots from this change that it will ultimately hurt the game much more then it will benefit it.



Then learn to dead the current values cap you at 3 days unable to jump at MOST. with 30 days of fatigue I fyou want the timemr betweenjumps to reach ZERO.

THE decay should increase I still think, moslty to help blackops.

No JF cannot be immune. The best cahnges is exacltyt hat groups will need to act as GROUPS to move logistics. No MOre solo supplying an entire region.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#4571 - 2014-10-03 00:16:07 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
KIller Wabbit wrote:
I didn't find out until just last week that they weren't allowed to be in null sec. That was a shocker, but did explain a few things.


That statement is not accurate. EVE developers are definitely permitted to play the game in any region on their personal accounts.


Hmm interesting. I was pretty sure a dev said that on Reddit. Thanks for the correction.

Now I'm back wondering about the "things" What?
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#4572 - 2014-10-03 00:17:06 UTC
Talvorian Dex wrote:

Let me ask you something. If you drive 20 miles a day to work, and suddenly you can only drive to work 1 day a week, and have to ride a scooter the rest of the days (Because of your jump fatigue), are you going to work 20 miles away? No, you're going to get a new job right next door.


Actually, you'll probably just telecommute.

And we've officially entered the 'RL examples' stage of the tears.

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Vinyl Scrattch
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#4573 - 2014-10-03 00:17:13 UTC
Adwokat Diabla wrote:
The idea that I cannot jump for a month at a time WILL make me unsub. I do not think this is an unrealistic response from any cap pilot. Limit this to a day or two at most, otherwise I see no point in continuing to subscribe a super pilot if I literally cannot play the game absent gates. (Which is NOT acceptable for a super) I guarantee you that you will lose enough subscriptions from super/titan pilots from this change that it will ultimately hurt the game much more then it will benefit it.

Look mate you have to own a hel in order to get mad about fatigue
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#4574 - 2014-10-03 00:17:42 UTC
Ronin Silfar wrote:
Quote:
You WILL loose at least 30% of the Playerbase.


Man cannot count how many times similar statements have been made. May I please direct your attention to exhibit A:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve_Online#Subscribers

Anyone who thinks these changes are being made without serious and rational forethought need to confirm that their IQ is above room temperature. Just like any other major change in EVE there will be growing pains, and iterations. No amount of QQ or subscription threats is going to change that. Instead, consider having a little faith that CCP has the health of the game and our best interests at heart. If it doesn't work out they'll fix it. If they really do make a mistake so terrible as to cause that graph to go down, then you can say "I told you so" afterward and rub it in all you want. Show some faith and have a mature conversation about the problem.

P.S. The tiny dip in that graph was Incarna. If you know anything about Incarna you know much people hated it. People still came back.

You. I like you. There aren't nearly enough people in this thread looking at things with a level head. Things were looking grim before. CCP saw that, and they understood a change was necessary, very likely a huge change. They're trying a huge change, and if it doesn't work, will continue to iterate on it until there's a working balance.

This isn't some "gun and done" change, it's a single (albeit massive) building block in a house of changes (one might even say it's the foundation, though I think the Tiericide initiative was the real foundation, this is more akin to the joints in the walls).

 Talk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.
Murauke
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#4575 - 2014-10-03 00:17:55 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
KIller Wabbit wrote:
I didn't find out until just last week that they weren't allowed to be in null sec. That was a shocker, but did explain a few things.


That statement is not accurate. EVE developers are definitely permitted to play the game in any region on their personal accounts.


Darwin did you take the act of cyno out of the overall process of jumping ships and brain storm this important step of force projection?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4576 - 2014-10-03 00:18:14 UTC
Talvorian Dex wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Talvorian Dex wrote:

The ability of an APEX force to move, yes. But this nerf obliterates the ability of ANY force to move more than one subcap at a time.

Hi. There's these things called stargates. Any ship of any size can use them now, in low and null security space.

You should look into the implications of that.

P.S. Hint - this means securing your lines of communication and not relying on mass teleportation for fleet mobility.

P.P.S. Pro Tip - HTFU.

Edit: a word.


Let me ask you something. If you drive 20 miles a day to work, and suddenly you can only drive to work 1 day a week, and have to ride a scooter the rest of the days (Because of your jump fatigue), are you going to work 20 miles away? No, you're going to get a new job right next door.

When your job is running logistics for an alliance, that means the alliance is screwed completely.

Don't forget... everyone here is a player of a game. When an activity isn't fun anymore, it's not going to get done. Why - after Seagull got up and said she wanted to help the content enablers - are they destroying the ability of dedicated logistics players (supplying null alliances) to do what they do?

"But they can always take gates!" No, that only works if the chance of being ganked is 1% or so. When it's about 50% (as it would be on EVERY pipeline to null), those players will simply stop doing it.



Use somethign called ESCORT. We used back when there were no JF. Normal freighters traveled with 5-6 interceptor scouts and a guard force of another dozen combat ships. Lilkely freighters will be escorted by a few carriers now.


Jsut stop thinkignyou can live in 0.0 and playing alone.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#4577 - 2014-10-03 00:18:32 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Sigras wrote:

The CFC has more than enough cyno alts to continue to hot drop the entire galaxy unless you make it ridiculous like 1 ship per cyno or something crazy like that.


Fun fact: we have more than enough capital pilots to do that with these changes - and now that we'll be able to take gates with those capitals, we can move them around w/out your cyno-watchers' knowledge.


It's going to be so awkward for you when one of your allies stabs you in the back doing exactly that Lol

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Adwokat Diabla
WeebFleet
Tsundere Triad
#4578 - 2014-10-03 00:18:45 UTC
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Talvorian Dex wrote:
I'm going to make one post, with the hope that the devs are still reading this thread. I'm gonna say this once.

Nerfing capitals into the ground is one thing (and that's what you're doing). I'm fine with that. But this is draconian.

More importantly, you're also obliterating so much more that relies on jump bridges, jump engines, and high-volume movement.

What happened to CCP Seagull saying, "We want to support content enablers!" (those who handle logistics, fuel, etc. that allow others to enjoy their gameplay)? With these changes, you've basically put your arm around them, cuddled them gently, then threw them to the ground and curbstomped them until they had a mouthful of broken teeth and bloody gums.



Here is your content enabler. Form a fleet and escort a freighter.


Yeah so to fuel the PL renter program and just keep it MAINTAINED we have to do freighter ops where we get 10+ freighters to help maintain our renters. This is not to establish it. Saying "form an escort yo" is just not realistic when forming nullsec infrastructure requires such a massive m3 of hauling for people who want to pvp and not spend their free time escorting haulers.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4579 - 2014-10-03 00:19:26 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:
CCP Darwin wrote:
KIller Wabbit wrote:
I didn't find out until just last week that they weren't allowed to be in null sec. That was a shocker, but did explain a few things.


That statement is not accurate. EVE developers are definitely permitted to play the game in any region on their personal accounts.


Hmm interesting. I was pretty sure a dev said that on Reddit. Thanks for the correction.

Now I'm back wondering about the "things" What?



If I know what statement you are talking about.. was about devs not being allowed to be inthe LEADERSHIP of alliances

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Talvorian Dex
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4580 - 2014-10-03 00:20:13 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
Talvorian Dex wrote:

Your statement is true only if demand is inelastic, but it's not. No one is forcing people to play Eve. No one is forcing players to use certain ships or fly in certain areas. When you make logistics and resupplying too difficult, you don't see increased costs, you see demand go away as people screw off and do something else.

This is an easy solution that doesn't actually solve anything. Fix the damn sov code, don't nerf things that have second-, third- and fourth-order consequences that will screw up the game.

After two years of players saying, "this is going to hell, here's how" and CCP doing nothing, they no longer have the goodwill and time to do something like this. Exempt jump freighters and find a way to move subcaps more easily (subcap blobs aren't as big of an issue, and can be countered, unlike super blobs), or this move is a catastrophe.


This isn't such a change that it's going to be prohibit people playing the game. Again, the tears and the melodrama.

Most of black/red frog services are to low sec anyways. What you'll see is the other major trade hubs outside of jita open up more, that's about it (and yay, also good for the game)

Talvorian Dex wrote:

Have you ever done a logistics run? Back and forth in a jump freighter can be 12 jumps. That's no longer possible. I don't care a bit about combat capitals jumping - I actually like that. It's the non-combat capital jumps that cause this thing to be ill-thought out and the consequence of a drunken brainstorming session, not a measured mechanic change.


Yes, you name it and I've done it.

What you're bitching about is doing it at a massive scale and across a massive distance. And that's what you don't get.

For once they recognized one of the more terrible abilities in this game and what's preventing a good regional environment. Who says YOU SHOULD BE ABLE to do such a thing quickly and easily, if at all.

These changes are most certainly going to be followed up with those to make null more self-sustaining. That's blatantly obvious.

Black frog will die, people will stop playing entirely and the sky will fall.
Write it down on a piece of paper so in 6 months you can read about how completely over the top and wrong you were here today.


Yes, I think you should be able to supply a null-sec region quickly and easily. Why? Because the products you sell get used in all the content in null-sec. If you shut down the suppliers, you shut down the content. As a person who likes null-sec, I have a problem with that.

If the problem is with people moving capitals to engage in battles, you address capitals that engage in battles, not capitals that enable the existence of null-sec.

Writer of Target Caller, an Eve Online PvP blog, at http://targetcaller.blogspot.com