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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Endo Saissore
Afterburners of Eve'il Inc.
#4341 - 2014-10-02 21:54:15 UTC
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
Mc Cormeg wrote:
Endo Saissore wrote:

I agree it gimps JFs, but if you wait 15 minutes between jumps then you don't accumulate fatigue. Not the end of the world and the trade off is worth it IMO.

This is assuming that you gain 1.5 fatigue per jump. I would quote me with those numbers. I'm not the best with math.


As i understand you only have to wait 1 minute per ly you had traveled with your last jump because if your current jump fatigue is below 1 and that's the case you want to have, you only gain a fix 1+ly for the next one.



Bzzt wrong.

You jump 1 light year. Your fatigue was 0. After the jump your fatigue is no 2 (1 light year + 1). Fatigue reduces by 0.1/minute. So to reduce fatigue to zero it will take 20 minutes. To reduce it below 1 to avoid the multiplicative effects you have to wait 11 minutes.


Again, I'm not the guy to go for this. But am I correct in understanding that a JF pilot will only accumulate 1.1 fatigue after a 1ly jump? Because of the role bonus
Brittney Calm
Escape from Darkness
#4342 - 2014-10-02 21:54:40 UTC
I can see FC's going hey if you were on the OP earlier this week you will have to sit this one out. Or X in fleet if you have fatigue and cant go on todays op..

Suddenly fleet #'s go from 100+ down to 50 or less in seconds.

They should have in fleet window for FC's a check by pilots that cannot jump so fc can kick them from fleet.

Another thought is will TIDI in a big cap fleet affect fatigue, since everything for example is at 10% would a normal 6 minutes to be able to jump turn into 60+ minutes?

-BC
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#4343 - 2014-10-02 21:54:55 UTC
McBorsk wrote:
218 pages? Calm down, people.



I am calm and im trying my best to prvide reasonable comprimises

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.
Sheeana Harb
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4344 - 2014-10-02 21:55:15 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
RasTrent wrote:
in before plex for fatigue reduction.


Sooooo mudderfugggin' THIS!!



It wouldn't go well with the majority of playerbase. Thankfully.
Aeydan Condit
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4345 - 2014-10-02 21:56:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Aeydan Condit
I like a lot of the changes but seriously a bonus needs to be given for JF range (I'm okay with the fatigue). I've trained forever to get into this thing on my Hauler and now THIS? Cmon, I see the entire point of what you're trying to do but it seems like JF and the Rorq are getting the shaft JUST because they happen to have jump drives and you guys said, well we need to punish them just because. You guys can do better than this, I know that.
Mc Cormeg
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4346 - 2014-10-02 21:56:42 UTC
Endo Saissore wrote:
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
Mc Cormeg wrote:
Endo Saissore wrote:

I agree it gimps JFs, but if you wait 15 minutes between jumps then you don't accumulate fatigue. Not the end of the world and the trade off is worth it IMO.

This is assuming that you gain 1.5 fatigue per jump. I would quote me with those numbers. I'm not the best with math.


As i understand you only have to wait 1 minute per ly you had traveled with your last jump because if your current jump fatigue is below 1 and that's the case you want to have, you only gain a fix 1+ly for the next one.



Bzzt wrong.

You jump 1 light year. Your fatigue was 0. After the jump your fatigue is no 2 (1 light year + 1). Fatigue reduces by 0.1/minute. So to reduce fatigue to zero it will take 20 minutes. To reduce it below 1 to avoid the multiplicative effects you have to wait 11 minutes.


Again, I'm not the guy to go for this. But am I correct in understanding that a JF pilot will only accumulate 1.1 fatigue after a 1ly jump? Because of the role bonus


Thats what i understand from the dev blog. Right.
Sigras
Conglomo
#4347 - 2014-10-02 21:57:52 UTC
Murauke wrote:
I slept on it and I think that CCP's focus on solving the challenge of force projection is on the wrong part of the over all problem.

Punishing people for jumping ships around space in search of enjoyment shouldn't be the focal point of reducing force projection.

In my opinion the cyno mechanic should be the focal point. After all this is what makes it possible to jump capitals around our fictitious universe.

By changing the ease by which a cyno can be deployed this will affect the ease to which a force can projected across the universe .

I worry that by imposing a "time bound" penalty to a branch of the game that has always been about the "sandbox" and the" immediate enjoyment" you will push Eve down a path where it will lose its identity as one of the best MMORPG's in the world.

Focus on the cyno step of jumping ships and this opens up an array of avenues from specific cyno ships, modules, fleet roles, limitations and certain requirements.

Cyno-ing requires 5 days with a new character and that pilot can cyno an entire fleet into a system with next to no difficulty. Personally this is part of the act of force projection that should be the focus, not the punishment to a pilot of jumping his/her ship around space in search for fun.

The problem is, exactly as CCP stated, that limiting cynos to X ships or Y mass doesnt fix the problem

The CFC has more than enough cyno alts to continue to hot drop the entire galaxy unless you make it ridiculous like 1 ship per cyno or something crazy like that.

right now you have to jump your ship around the galaxy looking for "enjoyment" because you CAN jump your ship around the galaxy looking for enjoyment. Everyone has surrounded themselves with allies and friends because they know that if they want to fight someone, they're only 20 minutes away (7 cynos)

Here's a radical idea... set the people one jump away from you to red, then you get to fight with them and get your enjoyment from right next door instead of half way across the galaxy.

Lastly, when has Eve ever been about "immediate enjoyment"? What game have you been playing? because the game Ive been enjoying for the past almost decade is about anything but immediate enjoyment.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#4348 - 2014-10-02 21:58:44 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
Komi Toran wrote:
Yes, you can have scouts. Yes, you can have escorts. But, you can't have these things all the time (Unless you're telling me to buy another account, in which case, #$%& you as there's too much of that BS in the game already; if CCP wants to require multiple alts to play the game, then that's what the base subscription should cover)

I hear this is a "massively multiplayer" game. Maybe you should utilize that.

Way to miss the point completely. Bravo. I applaud your complete obtuseness. I mean, the "solution" you point was explicitly mentioned in the very part you quoted. It takes a special talent for brainlessness to do that.

There is a choice: 1) wait around for enough people to drop what they're doing and get in a fleet so you can perform your routine housekeeping task 2) buy PLEX for multiple accounts so you can perform your routine housekeeping tasks when convenient for you and in less time and 3) wait around for slightly less time than in (1) without multiple accounts but still accomplish your routine housekeeping task in the window you have to play the game.

2 and 3 will be the primary modes of operation. Expecting 1 to be how things will happen on a normal basis is wishful thinking.
TimeDrawsNigh
Time Industries Inc.
#4349 - 2014-10-02 21:59:18 UTC
Endo Saissore wrote:
TimeDrawsNigh wrote:
Counter proposal for the jump delay timer.

Link below is a google excel doc. of cumulative delay timer that incrementally gets longer with each jump.

http://bit.ly/1rOpzTs

It’s a logarithmic scale.

So when you jump you get two timers.

First timer is the jump drive timer; the second timer is jump drive activation delay.

The jump drive timer is a base 30 minutes and every time you make a jump it will record the amount and add +1 to the "Jumps Made Since Timer Began" value. The jump drive timer will reset back to 30 min every time you make a new jump.
The jump drive activation delay is the timer you get once you have jumped. It’s the time you have to wait till the next jump can be made.

The equation for this is below.

http://i.imgur.com/EQpv4Cv.png

The principal of what happens here is that your delay timer gets bigger with each jump. The increment between each subsequent timer gets smaller, causing the graph to plateau out into a logarithmic curve. Eventually after so many jumps the delay timer will reach the same value as the jump drive timer, at which point it’s better with it out entirely and then start the process over.

Initially we found a problem with the function where doing three really short distance jumps would make the times later overall shorter but that has been fixed with the “Jump Amount Modifier.”

So e.g.
Jump 1 > 4.19 LY > delay timer of 6.42min > cumulative time 6.42min
Jump 2 > 4.7 LY > delay timer of 9.72 min > cumulative time 16.14min
Jump 3 > 4.206 LY > delay timer of 11.73 min > cumulative time 27.86min
Jump 5 > 4.564 LY > delay timer of 13.28 min > cumulative time 41.14min
Jump 6 > 1.855 LY > delay timer of 14.15 min > cumulative time 55.29min

Notice the increase in time getting smaller but the time overall still get longer. Bit like the diminishing returns of stacking nerf.

This Post and Equation was worked on by Sieonigh and myself.

Edit: We made this formula under the assumption that Jump Freighters and Rorquals do NOT have the 90% reduction, rather we think Black Ops should have this reduction (which we're implementing).



Are you waiting until fatigue hits zero between each jump?


No. This proposal takes away fatigue and inserts a 30 Minutes Jump Drive timer (ie: 1 Minute Aggression Timer) that is reset everytime you make a jump within the 30 Minute timer which gives you the next Jump Activation Delay you see on the spreadsheet.

"Darkness thrives in the void, but always yields to purifying light."
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4350 - 2014-10-02 21:59:41 UTC
Iece Quaan wrote:
If there is an optimal jump frequency that you've calculated as being the best for the fatigue curve..

I don't see why you wouldn't just set a static jump cooldown timer to that value and just call it a day.

Why use this insane system where people can lock their characters for 30 days? As a penalty for playing your game? In what world does this make sense?



Because this system allows people to take risk. IF they NEED in an emergency they can jump earlier.. paying a higher price.

The concept of the systme is not bad. THe values they decided altough are atrocious.

Fatigue needs to cooldown about 2 times faster if the formula is to keep same way.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Athay Huren
Bad Taste Aquarium
#4351 - 2014-10-02 22:00:25 UTC
TimeDrawsNigh wrote:
Counter proposal for the jump delay timer.

Link below is a google excel doc. of cumulative delay timer that incrementally gets longer with each jump.

http://bit.ly/1rOpzTs

It’s a logarithmic scale.

So when you jump you get two timers.

First timer is the jump drive timer; the second timer is jump drive activation delay.

The jump drive timer is a base 30 minutes and every time you make a jump it will record the amount and add +1 to the "Jumps Made Since Timer Began" value. The jump drive timer will reset back to 30 min every time you make a new jump.
The jump drive activation delay is the timer you get once you have jumped. It’s the time you have to wait till the next jump can be made.

The equation for this is below.

http://i.imgur.com/EQpv4Cv.png

The principal of what happens here is that your delay timer gets bigger with each jump. The increment between each subsequent timer gets smaller, causing the graph to plateau out into a logarithmic curve. Eventually after so many jumps the delay timer will reach the same value as the jump drive timer, at which point it’s better with it out entirely and then start the process over.

Initially we found a problem with the function where doing three really short distance jumps would make the times later overall shorter but that has been fixed with the “Jump Amount Modifier.”

So e.g.
Jump 1 > 4.19 LY > delay timer of 6.42min > cumulative time 6.42min
Jump 2 > 4.7 LY > delay timer of 9.72 min > cumulative time 16.14min
Jump 3 > 4.206 LY > delay timer of 11.73 min > cumulative time 27.86min
Jump 5 > 4.564 LY > delay timer of 13.28 min > cumulative time 41.14min
Jump 6 > 1.855 LY > delay timer of 14.15 min > cumulative time 55.29min

Notice the increase in time getting smaller but the time overall still get longer. Bit like the diminishing returns of stacking nerf.

This Post and Equation was worked on by Sieonigh and myself.

Edit: We made this formula under the assumption that Jump Freighters and Rorquals do NOT have the 90% reduction, rather we think Black Ops should have this reduction (which we're implementing).


+1 CCP do this instead
RasTrent
Boom.Roasted
#4352 - 2014-10-02 22:00:28 UTC
Sheeana Harb wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
RasTrent wrote:
in before plex for fatigue reduction.


Sooooo mudderfugggin' THIS!!



It wouldn't go well with the majority of playerbase. Thankfully.


And these proposed changes are going well? This is 2011 all over again.. but this time they have the chance to retract.
Catt Stevens
Karusaka Family
#4353 - 2014-10-02 22:01:37 UTC
AttentionAttentionAttentionWARNING WARNINGAttentionAttentionAttention

THREADNAUGHTICAL COLLAPSE DETECTED

All staff please evacuate to bunker 117


LEVEL 5 SECURITY MEASURES INTRODUCED
LOCKING THREAD TO PREVENT OVERFLOW OF TEARS



On a slightly more serious note, this is one GIANT thread.... possibly the largest I have ever seen on the EVE-O
P4nty w44d
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4354 - 2014-10-02 22:03:03 UTC
TimeDrawsNigh wrote:
Endo Saissore wrote:
TimeDrawsNigh wrote:
Counter proposal for the jump delay timer.

Link below is a google excel doc. of cumulative delay timer that incrementally gets longer with each jump.

http://bit.ly/1rOpzTs

It’s a logarithmic scale.

So when you jump you get two timers.

First timer is the jump drive timer; the second timer is jump drive activation delay.

The jump drive timer is a base 30 minutes and every time you make a jump it will record the amount and add +1 to the "Jumps Made Since Timer Began" value. The jump drive timer will reset back to 30 min every time you make a new jump.
The jump drive activation delay is the timer you get once you have jumped. It’s the time you have to wait till the next jump can be made.

The equation for this is below.

http://i.imgur.com/EQpv4Cv.png

The principal of what happens here is that your delay timer gets bigger with each jump. The increment between each subsequent timer gets smaller, causing the graph to plateau out into a logarithmic curve. Eventually after so many jumps the delay timer will reach the same value as the jump drive timer, at which point it’s better with it out entirely and then start the process over.

Initially we found a problem with the function where doing three really short distance jumps would make the times later overall shorter but that has been fixed with the “Jump Amount Modifier.”

So e.g.
Jump 1 > 4.19 LY > delay timer of 6.42min > cumulative time 6.42min
Jump 2 > 4.7 LY > delay timer of 9.72 min > cumulative time 16.14min
Jump 3 > 4.206 LY > delay timer of 11.73 min > cumulative time 27.86min
Jump 5 > 4.564 LY > delay timer of 13.28 min > cumulative time 41.14min
Jump 6 > 1.855 LY > delay timer of 14.15 min > cumulative time 55.29min

Notice the increase in time getting smaller but the time overall still get longer. Bit like the diminishing returns of stacking nerf.

This Post and Equation was worked on by Sieonigh and myself.

Edit: We made this formula under the assumption that Jump Freighters and Rorquals do NOT have the 90% reduction, rather we think Black Ops should have this reduction (which we're implementing).



Are you waiting until fatigue hits zero between each jump?


No. This proposal takes away fatigue and inserts a 30 Minutes Jump Drive timer (ie: 1 Minute Aggression Timer) that is reset everytime you make a jump within the 30 Minute timer which gives you the next Jump Activation Delay you see on the spreadsheet.


yes this is a far better idea
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4355 - 2014-10-02 22:03:16 UTC
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#4356 - 2014-10-02 22:04:40 UTC
Catt Stevens wrote:
On a slightly more serious note, this is one GIANT thread.... possibly the largest I have ever seen on the EVE-O



Not quite. Still need to work on getting to T20 levels. Yes, only straight cheating by a dev is more debatable.


5096 - T20 - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=526462&page=170
3156 - T20 response - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=473335&page=106
4304 - speed nerf - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=831524&page=144
3552 - dominion sov - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1210267&page=119
3276 - fighter bombers - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=618279&page=110
BuddyKnife
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4357 - 2014-10-02 22:04:52 UTC
All problems in the game can be traced to players moving to where other players are so gates and capitals should be removed from the game.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4358 - 2014-10-02 22:06:48 UTC
Kismeteer wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Kismeteer wrote:
Just want to make it clear that this gives the current blocks an easy 'I win' button as people will have to be organized with lots of allies to stand against an invasion. And the current blocks are organized already. It slows the game down, makes it tougher to get huge fights, and leads to pointless difficulties to newbies and logi people alike.

Any small group that thinks this will help them might want to look closer if you think this will stop people from taking gates to kill you.

Just want to make it clear the above post is called 'fear mongering' and should be laughed at.


Hey, the change is good for goons (blocs) the game, I just think it is bad for goons (blocs) the game.


Corrected.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4359 - 2014-10-02 22:07:02 UTC
Komi Toran wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
Komi Toran wrote:
Yes, you can have scouts. Yes, you can have escorts. But, you can't have these things all the time (Unless you're telling me to buy another account, in which case, #$%& you as there's too much of that BS in the game already; if CCP wants to require multiple alts to play the game, then that's what the base subscription should cover)

I hear this is a "massively multiplayer" game. Maybe you should utilize that.

Way to miss the point completely. Bravo. I applaud your complete obtuseness. I mean, the "solution" you point was explicitly mentioned in the very part you quoted. It takes a special talent for brainlessness to do that.

There is a choice: 1) wait around for enough people to drop what they're doing and get in a fleet so you can perform your routine housekeeping task 2) buy PLEX for multiple accounts so you can perform your routine housekeeping tasks when convenient for you and in less time and 3) wait around for slightly less time than in (1) without multiple accounts but still accomplish your routine housekeeping task in the window you have to play the game.

2 and 3 will be the primary modes of operation. Expecting 1 to be how things will happen on a normal basis is wishful thinking.

You can choose to ignore everyone else, at your own risk, or you can be asocial and use your own alts. Or you could just ask in intel channels for intel, or get some friends in your corp and actually have them help you.
smokeydapot
Moon Of The Pheonix
#4360 - 2014-10-02 22:07:49 UTC  |  Edited by: smokeydapot
Kismeteer wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Kismeteer wrote:
Another 40 posts, and this will be the highest replied to topic in this entire set of forums. The only other one was the Reasonable Things megathread awhile back with 4,282 replies.


I still think the biggest ever was the T20 thread... back in the old forums... can anyone find out?


You are correct, there were actually two threads. I only went through the current forums, not the old ones,:
5096 - T20 - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=526462&page=170
3156 - T20 response - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=473335&page=106

Some other important ones.
4304 - speed nerf - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=831524&page=144
3552 - dominion sov - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1210267&page=119
3276 - fighter bombers - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=618279&page=110

e: So we are now past the last major implementation threadnaught, the speed nerf, which was huge. Congrats. We'll see if CCP considers anything, or just blindly implements stuff as they usually do, promising to 'fix it' later. Like the Dominion Sov system.



I remember Dominion wasn't that the expansion where ccp where going to take a look at POS's because they where not used to take or hold SOV anymore.

Did they ever do that or are we still waiting.

Ahh well it was only promised about 5 years ago no rush
It's not like POS's need it right ????

I'm tired of so much being promised and so little delivered...