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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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white male privilege
Doomheim
#4201 - 2014-10-02 20:56:40 UTC
Mr Evill wrote:
Lol yet another CCP tactic to nerf capitals even more.

A supercap that is end game for so many off players who have been getting isk togther for years beeing nerfed to hell.

Just how CCP work instead of fixing the problem they nerf supers even more because they all the prolem of 0.0

Uh you're an idiot supers are even more powerful, you just can't move them safely. There will be regional powers who have capital superiority instead of powers that hold capital superiority that covers all of eve.
Alislanna
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4202 - 2014-10-02 20:56:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Alislanna
Eigenvalue wrote:
This change is essentially the same as the real world suddenly deciding to eliminate all transnational shipping routes and rip up all interstates and highways across every country on earth, putting a ban on air travel of any sort, and informing everyone that the goal is to create more localism.

After the global starvation and famine settled down we would find ourselves in a global dark age not seen since the fall of the western roman empire in europe.

It'll have a hugely chilling impact on industry across new eden and create massive market distortions. It'll force everyone to contract their deployments to as close to highsec as they possibly can get and put all major powers concentrated at those staging points into null sec.

It will only allow "neighbor vs neighbor" combat, so better hope your neighbor provides decent combat because moving to a new neighborhood will be practically impossible. It'll prevent escalation and make the metagame lame and uninteresting.

It'll end B-R's and related mega-events in the game that drove so much new player inflow.

All the grrrr goon and grrrr PL and grrr whatever is, I believe, driving this whole "force projection" nerf desire and makes me scratch my head and think ... didn't PL goons and other powers provide a lot of content and story in eve? What's the problem with there existing major powers and minor powers? Why must all powers be equally crappy?

Are we sure we need nuclear level changes immediately? Why aren't the changes starting small and escalating based on evaluation of the impact? Why start top end and readdress after a spring of rage?

Why are we repeating the same sort of mistakes CCP has made time and time again with its poorly thought out and poorly metriced major shakeups?


A-bloody-men.

People have trained skills for 6 months, a year, 5 years... all to carve out a nitch of fun they have in this game. CCP has decided to ham-fistedly destroy those efforts in time and real world money all in the name of what, exactly? And there is all this wonderment about why soooo many people are outraged over these changes? Years down the tube for many. Corps, alliances, coaltions all now having to fundamentally change how they play a game they've been playing and training their toons towards for the better part of a DECADE.

Truly don't understand why this makes sense to any decision maker at CCP. Upset a strong majority of your player base with massive fundamental changes in how they now have to play an already tedious game - lets make that worse. Sounds great!

CCP made this new release cycle and it was mentioned many times how this would allow them to make incremental changes and see where adjustments were needed. Many good examples of this, small changes to industry, small adjustments to Ishtar etc. That was working. Why now this? There are no words to describe my state of bewilderment after reading your plans to throw out the 'incremental' tool from your toolbox and just go for broke. All good things die I suppose... But this is being done intentionally.... sigh.
Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#4203 - 2014-10-02 20:57:32 UTC
Shing Thsu wrote:
sory i didnt get it, how long will i have to wait after 5ly jump to get timers and all back to zero ?

and will these timers be affected by TiDi ?


60 minutes. Your fatigue level will be 6 after a 5 LY jump (light years jumped + 1). That fatigue level drops by 0.1 every minute. So to get it back to zero will take you 6/0.1 = 60.

Of course, you can just wait till it is below 1 in which case 51 minutes in which case it will be 0.9. Then the multiplicative effects are avoided.
Ginger Barbarella
#4204 - 2014-10-02 20:57:32 UTC
Demonfist wrote:
Everyone in the game: Please fix game nao?!
CCP: OK We Fix Nao.
Everyone in the game: NO! FIX BAD!

Shocked


You, sir, have a very strange definition for "everyone". Try, "everyone = cap pilots in large null alliances"

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Endo Saissore
Afterburners of Eve'il Inc.
#4205 - 2014-10-02 20:58:22 UTC
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
Endo Saissore wrote:
Iece Quaan wrote:
If there is an optimal jump frequency that you've calculated as being the best for the fatigue curve..

I don't see why you wouldn't just set a static jump cooldown timer to that value and just call it a day.

Why use this insane system where people can lock their characters for 30 days? As a penalty for playing your game? In what world does this make sense?



If you lock your character for thirty days then you are doing it on purpose or you don't understand how to properly jump. If you wait out the jump fatigue after every single jump then you can do the jumps in the devblog example in under 14 hourssss!!!!!

So again, if you reach the limit then you deserve it


Yes because doing the jumps in the Dev Blog in 14 hours is totally reasonable!!

Roll

Since you'll not get the point here I'll elucidate: We can still put a serious dent into power projection without going to this extreme. The problem with power projection is that people will hot drop from half a galaxy away in a few minutes. You don't need to make jumping several times take days or even weeks to solve that problem.



Why do you NEED to cover this much distance each day!? Because you control swathes of empty space?
Because your coalition needs help maintaining its blue donut on the other side of the map?


Don't say say for logistical purposes. JFs need to only wait 1.5 minutes between jumps.

Coalitions will be useless and break up. Null sec will be filled with several ongoing wars between smaller alliances. Like we've dreamed
ugly inside
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#4206 - 2014-10-02 20:58:24 UTC
Eigenvalue wrote:
This change is essentially the same as the real world suddenly deciding to eliminate all transnational shipping routes and rip up all interstates and highways across every country on earth, putting a ban on air travel of any sort, and informing everyone that the goal is to create more localism.

After the global starvation and famine settled down we would find ourselves in a global dark age not seen since the fall of the western roman empire in europe.

It'll have a hugely chilling impact on industry across new eden and create massive market distortions. It'll force everyone to contract their deployments to as close to highsec as they possibly can get and put all major powers concentrated at those staging points into null sec.

It will only allow "neighbor vs neighbor" combat, so better hope your neighbor provides decent combat because moving to a new neighborhood will be practically impossible. It'll prevent escalation and make the metagame lame and uninteresting.

It'll end B-R's and related mega-events in the game that drove so much new player inflow.

All the grrrr goon and grrrr PL and grrr whatever is, I believe, driving this whole "force projection" nerf desire and makes me scratch my head and think ... didn't PL goons and other powers provide a lot of content and story in eve? What's the problem with there existing major powers and minor powers? Why must all powers be equally crappy?

Are we sure we need nuclear level changes immediately? Why aren't the changes starting small and escalating based on evaluation of the impact? Why start top end and readdress after a spring of rage?

Why are we repeating the same sort of mistakes CCP has made time and time again with its poorly thought out and poorly metriced major shakeups?


you work really far from home.. and one day.. your car.. decides.. on its own... to only go 5 roads over.. and then stops..

COMING TO A THEATER NEAR YOU
Engines with a moral bar! the movie
staring 8 cylinder
and his evil brother.. diesil engine

someone isnt coming home this Christmas
#MakeThisMovieAParodyOfEve
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4207 - 2014-10-02 20:58:27 UTC
Demonfist wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:

An incremental change like that, followed by a Development pause, and then additional Public Discussion/ Iteration/ and planning is far less 'burn it with fire' than this proposal.

This is an incremental change. They've already said there will be more done down the road to work towards some murky unexplained goal. In CCP We Trust. *shrugs*



This is not incremental in how it affects the targeted player segment, as well as the unintended consequences to New Eden. Don't misunderstand, their development model is incremental; but the impact of the proposed Phoebe update for Capitals is anything but incremental.

If the second decade of EVE is turning it into a themepark styled sandbox then be careful who you "Trust. *shrug*", because in a few years time it my be all of your hard Meta-level work that is suddenly found under the axe.

It's like the minute CCP lost it's economist and a few developers, everyone who got promoted also got stupid? Seems like the 'Stewardship CCP' just gave way to the 'OP Dev-Crush-It-with-a-Viking-Hammer CCP'

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Kalissis
#4208 - 2014-10-02 20:58:29 UTC
Dalia Rensini wrote:
Dalia Rensini wrote:
Kalissis wrote:
[quote=Suzuka A1][quote=CCP Greyscale]




Seriously, please do understand that making people wait in front of a computer screen for a timer to tick down is not

''Playing a game''

it is torture / job / a chore / cleaning toilets / unpleasant experience

So if that is what you desire for the future of Eve Online please do us all reasonable people a big favour and go **** yourselfie



See its not how you should play EVE, currently thausends of players are waiting in stations spinning ships, just to hear later "we are standing down".

You will not need to wait, take your fleet go out and fight, no need to wait for anything, no "blue balls", no nothing, just good old fun!



Sorry but you are clearly and totally missing the point here mate. Put yourself in the shoes of the line member of any entity in NPC or sov null corp and move around the map say 50 LY safely with your two subbed accounts without wanting to suicide yourself or biomass the **** out of your character.

The purpose / intent of these changes is spot on. Limit power projection.

The idea / method proposed is not.



What are you talking about, if you fly 50ly just to have some fights, thats whats wrong with EVE right now, that should never ever be the case!

1. Deploy
2. Fight

No need for 50ly jumps. Problem solved.
Klown Walk
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#4209 - 2014-10-02 20:58:31 UTC
Why is it so bad that your supply chain can actually get disrupted now in 0.0?
Opsblitz
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#4210 - 2014-10-02 20:59:00 UTC
Thats it....All null sec players be prepared to move to highsec and reak havoc on the new player basis....If we are going down we are taking CCP with us.....Shocked

In all seriousness,

Why the fatigue thing?
Why not place a timer on the amount of LY you jump across the board?
It takes a long time to train to level 5 JDC and other supporting skills not to mention even longer time if your in a titan so lets just place a 2 minuet timer for ever LY you jump meaning that if I am in my Carrier and I jump 14LY in one jump then I have to wait 28 minuets till I can jump again

Problem solved!!!

I bet a subcap fleet could travel that far in 28 minuets.

Good Luck with this one CCP...I truley hope it works.
Sheeana Harb
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4211 - 2014-10-02 20:59:18 UTC
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:

Yes because doing the jumps in the Dev Blog in 14 hours is totally reasonable!!

Roll

Since you'll not get the point here I'll elucidate: We can still put a serious dent into power projection without going to this extreme. The problem with power projection is that people will hot drop from half a galaxy away in a few minutes. You don't need to make jumping several times take days or even weeks to solve that problem.

To be clear for the completely dumb, chances are that 14 hour jump time the previous commenter noted will likely mean you take 2 days to do it. If you have to jump even more, for example you are doing logistics work, it will take several days if you are moving several loads.

Or, as I noted previously big alliances/coaltions will get around the problem by using multiple pilots and station traing the ships with full cargo bays. Smaller alliances and/or groups with newer players...they'll suffer the most.



The whole point of jump fatigue changes is that you are not supposed to make those jumps in the first place. They are discouraged and unpleasant (timewasting) experience on purpose and by design.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4212 - 2014-10-02 20:59:28 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
I really don't understand the need for this nerf/mechanic in the first place. I agree with most people that as the years have progressed the sandbox keeps getting smaller and smaller for the "allowed" behavior. I honestly think that this previous mechanic already had some balance to it. Moving by death by clone already has a cost associated with it, clones aren't cheap especially when you get to the 100mil sp range. You this a couple times in a day and the cost is going to be significantly more than what it would have been in fuel to move a cap.

1) Most people don't have 100m SP and deathclone back and forth.
2) You probably won't ever do this "a couple times a day".


Point 2 seems to be contradicted by point one. You just said deathclone back and forth followed by saying that most people wouldn't do it a couple times a day.

Nah, point 1's focus is mainly on the number of SP, point 2 is mainly focusing on back and forth.

I mean, there will be times when this does happen, but today's situation doesn't really warrant deathcloning back and forth, most of the time you can actually deathclone to your staging system and then just jumpclone back and forth within the mechanics already setup for that, and that's utterly sufficient.

Valterra Craven wrote:
I'm not disagreeing with your points per se though, just that I'm still not seeing a real need to change this "feature"

I do. Right now we just need to get one person to a station and add one single corp office, and everyone can deathclone over. With this change you have to actually get people transported there before they can latch onto the station.
Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#4213 - 2014-10-02 20:59:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Kun'ii Zenya
ugly inside wrote:
Endo Saissore wrote:
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
Gospadin wrote:
Rarnak Ki wrote:
One big problem is that these changes have the unintended consequence of nerfing multiple jumps over short ranges, say back and forth between two nearby systems. That has nothing to do with force projection and yet will still incur the same penalties as jumping all the way across the universe.


Two jumps (back and forth) gives you a few hours of fatigue.

How often do you plan to jump back and forth?


Jump to the target system; kill target; jump out to your staging system.

There you go, two jumps "back and forth". Roll


Jump in, engage your target. Wait five minutes (most of that time should be reduced while you were killing your target)

Jump out with no fatigue.

Problem solved.


its so simple.. why didn't i think of this!!


Because the person doesn't understand fatigue.

You jump 5 years. Your fatigue is 6. You have to wait 6 minutes to jump again. But your fatigue will be 5.4. If you jump another 5 light years youre fatigue will now be 5.4**6 = 32.4. That means you can't jump again for 32.4 minutes. To get ride of all that fatigue will take 324 minutes just under 5.5 HOURS.
Kalissis
#4214 - 2014-10-02 21:00:36 UTC
Klown Walk wrote:
Why is it so bad that your supply chain can actually get disrupted now in 0.0?


Nothing, logistics should never be risk free, its part of EvE where everything should drive some kind of conflict.
Vhaine Vhindiscar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4215 - 2014-10-02 21:00:47 UTC
Dalia Rensini wrote:
[quote=Dalia Rensini][quote=Kalissis][quote=Suzuka A1][quote=CCP Greyscale]



The purpose / intent of these changes is spot on. Limit power projection.

The idea / method proposed is not.


Nobody is arguing against doing something. We're only arguing that this something is worse then the problem. The solution to making eve fun is to make eve less fun. Not a single change listed is going to make eve more fun for the affected player. It's just more useless bandaid timers and opaque mechanics shotgunned to the face of 100% of the population to fix an issue generated by 5% of us.

It's bad policy. It's bad design. Worst of all, it's not fun. We have enough 'not fun' in eve now.
Nucleus Maximus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4216 - 2014-10-02 21:01:05 UTC
Suzuka A1 wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Fonac wrote:
You've nerfed rapidly deploying over vast distances to a complete impossibility.


Hopefully, yes.


I've always had the opinion that anything should be possible in EVE, maybe extremely difficult/painful but still possible.



Deploying over vast distances is STILL possible...just not in a RAPID amount of time. That goes to show it is difficult and painful to deploy far away, but still possible. Reading Comprehension 5 FTW!
Eigenvalue
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#4217 - 2014-10-02 21:01:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Eigenvalue
Quote:

1. Just because you don't like the solution, doesn't mean it's not a solution to the problem they're looking to solve. None of the changes as written introduce boredom IMO. If you choose to sit on your hands waiting all the time rather than using the mechanics available - you know, gates - then that's your own fault, not CCP's.


Please. The gate feature is absurd. No one is going to move capitals through gates as part of a strategy. They may tactically do it if they have full confidence on the space being safe, but no one will devise a strategy that ever includes a capital fleet gate jump. It's too hard to keep gates secure for the flight times and align times of capitals and the value/risk ratio on a 4B per ship fleet of mega slow ships just doesn't make sense.

Quote:

4. Supers and Titans will still have a role. Invulnerable hotdropo'clock mobiles won't be it - but they will have a role. Inventive players (which may or may not include you) can probably find all kinds of ways to use them effectively. Like, say, notice they have Clone Vats and SMAs.


Really? wouldn't it be just you know 10 times cheaper to just use a rorqual - which can dock in stations by the way and get the .1 fatigue modifier?

It would make more sense to just remove Titans and reimburse material costs to the pilot and declare the titan a bad idea that should never have been added to the game if that's the view.
Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#4218 - 2014-10-02 21:01:37 UTC
Sheeana Harb wrote:
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:

Yes because doing the jumps in the Dev Blog in 14 hours is totally reasonable!!

Roll

Since you'll not get the point here I'll elucidate: We can still put a serious dent into power projection without going to this extreme. The problem with power projection is that people will hot drop from half a galaxy away in a few minutes. You don't need to make jumping several times take days or even weeks to solve that problem.

To be clear for the completely dumb, chances are that 14 hour jump time the previous commenter noted will likely mean you take 2 days to do it. If you have to jump even more, for example you are doing logistics work, it will take several days if you are moving several loads.

Or, as I noted previously big alliances/coaltions will get around the problem by using multiple pilots and station traing the ships with full cargo bays. Smaller alliances and/or groups with newer players...they'll suffer the most.



The whole point of jump fatigue changes is that you are not supposed to make those jumps in the first place. They are discouraged and unpleasant (timewasting) experience on purpose and by design.


The point is to find a way to curb power projection. I agree with that. What I'm saying, and which you completely missed, is that the currently suggested mechanic is excessive for the purpose of curbing power projection.
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#4219 - 2014-10-02 21:03:41 UTC
I;m way too drunk to reply right n ow.

HAve fun.

Night

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Eigenvalue
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#4220 - 2014-10-02 21:03:48 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Demonfist wrote:
Everyone in the game: Please fix game nao?!
CCP: OK We Fix Nao.
Everyone in the game: NO! FIX BAD!

Shocked


You, sir, have a very strange definition for "everyone". Try, "everyone = cap pilots in large null alliances"


I think you mean "cap pilots in small alliances"

Large alliances won't be impacted, they'll just establish cross regional caches with jump clones installed at the currently meaningful caches.