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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#3361 - 2014-10-02 15:06:03 UTC
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
Shuffle moons around at the same time this comes out!

I'm gonna keep this up...

...

Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#3362 - 2014-10-02 15:06:50 UTC
Joseph Adamamada wrote:
I'm all for nerfing force projection of combat caps, but not so much for logistics/trade.

How about leveling the playing field everywhere in New Eden? Empire and wormhole space should not be excluded from a similar logistic nightmare that's going to hit null come November. Make Jita, Amarr, Hek and all the other hubs in New Eden seem that much further away. Give all haulers everywhere jump fatigue when taking gates/whs. Everyone should feel the pain of moving vast quantities of stuff anywhere.


A game of Chess over snail mail anyone?
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#3363 - 2014-10-02 15:07:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
CCP Greyscale:

First I love these changes. I think they are exactly what Eve needs. Great job for you and the team for putting them together.

Second, I am wondering if you would be open to removing JDC from Eve. As things stand right now the limiting factor for your ability to jump from point A to point B is jump range. JDC is a very valuable skill right now. The issue is that after this goes through the limiting factor will be jump fatigue. This means that JDC, for bring a 53 day train to V, IMO really won't be worth it as it is no longer the limiting factor. A 53 day train to go from 2.2LY to 5 LY (if the 25% bonus stayed) is really underwhelming and not super useful when the limiting factor is jump fatigue.

I would rather you set the base jump range of all ships to 5LY, except BlOps getting 7.5LY, and remove JDC all together. A while back your removed Material Efficiency skill from industry to ensure everyone was competitive from day 1. Please remove JDC, set base jump range to 5LY, and allow everyone to have the same base mobility from day 1.
Raelaem Eudain
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3364 - 2014-10-02 15:08:05 UTC
Just think, for a second... stay with me here

1 world/planet with military forces requires the world powers to project their assets all around the globe. Requires them to carefully plan and place assets where they think they need them. Bases of operations/forward operating posts foreign posts with allies.

Oh jeez thats us IRL OH HEY! So why shouldn't a virtual reality require the same amount of care and planning for its military...

Just saying
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#3365 - 2014-10-02 15:08:09 UTC
Nikki Estemaire wrote:
I like this. How about allow for easy moving of subcaps, perhaps by having JFs and normal (and maybe nerfed) carriers keep the range? Make carriers weaker in DPS and logi and let them carry more assembled subcaps and cargo.

The fleet members still have to fly out to deployment in convoys, creating more fights as well.


A better solution than un-nerfing carriers is, I think, a new breed of JF that solely has a (large) SMA.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#3366 - 2014-10-02 15:08:28 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
After reading a lot of this and elsewhere, I don't see why jump freighters or rorquals should be affected by this in any way. That in itself should shave off most of the hate IMO.


Rapid transit of the 'win fleet' is only one facet of the problem at hand. Rapid safe transit of logistics is another. This clever change adresses both.
ElectronHerd Askulf
Aridia Logistical Misdirection
#3367 - 2014-10-02 15:10:51 UTC  |  Edited by: ElectronHerd Askulf
I like the core fatigue mechanic - it elegantly and consistently nerfs most forms of rapid travel. I believe, however, that you should be more proactive in addressing jump clones. I realize there's a lot more that needs to be considered in addition to the travel implications, but if you're going to nerf suicide cloning, I think you should take a whack at jump clones at the same time. I also think you should take another look at the use of nigh-uncatchable interceptors as a rapid travel option, as they also allow large organizations to get pilots to pre-staged ships rapidly.

Others have mentioned the new-bro joining corp use case for suicide jumping. Please do give us some tool to enable (or replace) that singular usage of the technique.

I believe that you're nerfing jump freighter range too much, or at least too rapidly. Yes, they've not always been in game, but the ecosystem and political geography of Eve have grown around their current capabilities and I ask that you at least give us a bit less of a shock while you nerf them down. An additional, and probably more significant, issue with the 5ly range is that there are pockets of NPC space that will not be reachable without jumps in (probably hostile) sov space. This will interfere with people's ability to conduct harassment and guerilla style operations (the small fights that you intend to encourage). You can tell people to harden up all you like, but it's a bit unfair to allow them to soften over the last few years and not give them a bit of time to adjust to new realities.

Edit: A longer term question I have is how (or if) you intend to support small entities operating independently deep in null sec? That would be one of the goals I'd like to see for a reshaping of null, but I can't see how it would fit with this change. A small organization will have great difficulties in achieving adequate control of that supply chain.
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#3368 - 2014-10-02 15:10:54 UTC
Joseph Adamamada wrote:
I'm all for nerfing force projection of combat caps, but not so much for logistics/trade.

How do you tell a combat archon from a logistics/trade archon?

I would be very, very surprised if the overwhelming majority of carrier jumps was not from one station to another, carrying subcaps in its SMA.
Beta Maoye
#3369 - 2014-10-02 15:11:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Beta Maoye
Rowells wrote:
Ok, so I'm still not understanding how the fatigue works in correlation with the cooldown timer. Anyone have middle-school education way of explaining it?

This is my understanding.

Roughly speaking, the fatigue value is put there to keep track of the total distance you have traveled so far. The longer distance you have traveled, the more the fatigue value is accumulated, but it can slowly decay back to zero. The rate of decay is 0.1 per minutes. After the first jump distance of 4.85LY, assume he has no fatigue initially, the fatigue value is 1+4.85 which is 5.85.

The first cooldown timer(in minute) is equal to the fatigue value after first jump, which is 5.85. He is not able to jump until his cooldown timer return to zero. While he is waiting for his next jump, his fatigue value is decaying slowly at the same time. By the time his cooldown timer reach zero, his fatigue value is decayed by 5.85*0.1 which is 0.585. So the remaining fatigue is 5.85-0.585 equals to 5.265. Note that the rate of fatigue decay is much slower than that of cooldown timer. It creates an accumulated effect for subsequent jumps.

The cooldown timer after second jump behaves differently from that of first jump. It is equal to the fatigue value just before that jump, which is 5.265. Note that this cooldown timer does not take into account the fatigue of this jump. As the second jump distance is 3.57LY, the fatigue value is increased by multiplying effect of 5.265*(1+3.57) which is 24.061. Note that after the second jump, the fatigue value is increased exponentially. While he is waiting for his third jump, his fatigue is decreased to 24.601-(5.265*0.1) which is 23.5345.

After the third jump, the cooldown timer(in minute) is equal to the fatigue just before that jump, which is 23.5345. Since the third jump is 4.19LY, the fatigue is increased to 23.5345*(1+4.19) equals to 122.144. As he watch his cooldown timer to tick down to zero, his fatigue is reduced to 122.144-(23.5345*0.1) which is 119.79.

After fouth jump, cooldown timer should be 119.79 minutes(1 hours 59 minutes 47 seconds). Fourth jump range is 4.9LY, so fatigue is 119.79*(1+4.9) which is 706.761. As cooldown time goes to zero, fatigue is reduced to 706.761-(119.79*0.1) which is 694.782. So his next cooldown timer will be 694.78 minutes (11 hours 34 minutes 46 seconds),

As you can see, if he jump right away when cooldown expire, fatique is increased exponentially for each jump from 5.85 > 24.601 > 122.144 > 706.761. Cooldown timers(in minutes) follows closely from 5.265 > 23.5345 > 119.79 > 694.78. Total time needed is 14 hours 3 minutes 57 seconds.

To avoid the exponentially accumulated fatigue effect, he can wait out the fatigue decay before he make the 2nd and 3rd jump, the time he spent for the journey will be significantly shorter.

1st jump has zero waiting time (assume he has no fatigue)
Before making 2nd jump he wait out the fatigue decay (58.5 minutes)
Before making 3rd jump he wait out the fatigue decay (45.7 minutes)
Before making 4th jump he just wait out the cooldown timer (5.19 minutes)
Before making 5th jump he just wait out the cooldown timer (30.102 minutes)
Total time needed is 2 hours 19 minutes 29 seconds. He will accumulate fatigue for the 4th and 5th jump.

To optimize time required for the journey and balance the risk involved, he has to manage when to wait out fatigue decay, when to wait out cooldown timer and when to use stargates.
Marshmallow Bunny
Aeolus Umbra Industrial Enterprises
#3370 - 2014-10-02 15:12:21 UTC
I applaud these changes and just want to say thank you to CCP and Greyscale for going big and doing something to shake things up and change null and the rest of the game.

I have 5 accounts and will be keeping them subbed with cash to support these changes and the future of the game.

There may be some flaws to this proposal once is it implemented, but it clearly goes in the right direction. Eve is and should be a game that makes you think things through and make choices. I believe people will adapt and the game will be fun for all of us.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3371 - 2014-10-02 15:12:41 UTC
Edgarr Friendly wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something but surely this just makes the bigger corps/alliances stronger?

You take over a corner of space, you only need to protect the borders because nobody has the range to jump in beyond you, and if they do they are stuck with such large timers that you can activate your defense fleet and destroy them before they can get away. which allows you to have minimal forces within the boundary where you can rent away or operate with impunity.

I'm still waiting to see how small corps alliances benefit


Spoiler. They don't.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Loryanna
T.T.S.P Solutions
#3372 - 2014-10-02 15:12:48 UTC
Excellent changes. Please do not back down under the pressure of the Nullsec Crew. These changes mean that groups will actually have to live where they stake a claim. It will also mean that the hot drop crowd will have to actually create goodfights, not sit there playing WoT waiting for someone else to have the balls to create a goodfight before third-partying it.

Brilliant changes, this will bring EvE back to life. Ignore the whingers; if they can't adapt then they're playing the wrong game.
Lisa Sophie d'Elancourt
Empusa.
#3373 - 2014-10-02 15:12:51 UTC
Brilliant idea. Just do not hurt black ops.

All those cries above give us clear evidence how crappy are powerblocks - anything beyond dropping supercaps on T1 cruiser is too demanding for them. Good to know they are just lazy and want everything without effort. Good to know it's beyond their abilities to organize convoys. And good to know things been pushed in right direction - at last.

CCP, good job. And keep that course, don't give up.
The Ironfist
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3374 - 2014-10-02 15:12:57 UTC
CCP Greyscale Do you guys have someone asking the question "is this fun?" during the development process? Just how much time do you think people are willing to spend on a game that is not fun at all. Right now logistics from deep null-sec to empire spaces takes about half an hour. After this change it will be around 7 hours do you really think people are willing to spend that amount of time on a game for literally no progress or reward?

I'm sure this is just a first draft but seriously ask the question is this fun? Will this be fun gameplay? I look forward to your reply.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#3375 - 2014-10-02 15:13:02 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Rommiee wrote:
Will cyno jammers stop caps jumping in through your gate?


Nope, that's what bubbles are for.


You said that there are changes to interdiction bubbles. .. does this mean they will now restrict outgoing stargate jumps?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3376 - 2014-10-02 15:15:25 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Rommiee wrote:
Will cyno jammers stop caps jumping in through your gate?


Nope, that's what bubbles are for.


You said that there are changes to interdiction bubbles. .. does this mean they will now restrict outgoing stargate jumps?


I'm going with bigger bubbles for regional gates.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#3377 - 2014-10-02 15:15:34 UTC
Capqu wrote:
http://puu.sh/bWc5W/06119e52b8.png

thank u based greyscale

Yeah, I am really happy about the ramifications for NPC Delve too. Because of the 5LY max range, in order to restock NPC Delve you have to take the Sakht -> 1-SMEB gate or hoof it through Querious (which, without safe stations in the face of jump fatigue, is probably not going to be very effective.) This means, as sovhavers, we can easily starve out NPC Delve by controlling the 1-SMEB gate.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#3378 - 2014-10-02 15:16:07 UTC
olan2005 wrote:
dont like repeating myself much so a few key points

1 - logistics in null sec is difficult so would you consider giving the jump freighter a range bonus in order to negate the effect of this change on what is a primary logistics ship not combat and therefore has not power projection capacity . Same for the Rorqual.

2 - Add more low ends especially Mexallon and Isogen to null sec as right now most low ends especially those to must be imported damaging self sufficiency in null sec.

3 - in order to allow every to ship build equally and become self sufficient change the moon situation to allow it to spawn everywhere using the same rarity scale as you do for regular minerals. This would enable universal ship building

4 - TO SUMMARIZE UNLESS Self sufficiency is addressed promptly youre going to kill null sec industry . and make what is a minority of the population for worse off .



Logistics has to mean more than (bring stuff from Jita, take stuff to Jita). Yes it makes logistics harder when trying to bring stuff from every point of new Eden to that hub.... But you cannot base logistics solely on where highsec ends. Logistics will take hours, not minutes. Jump freighters are as much to blame for force projection and stagnation as any capital and super (worse in many ways as it created direct access to highsec markets to and from Anywhere in null). Finding stuff and building things became trivial as you could source everything from that hub.

Yaay!!!!

Raelaem Eudain
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3379 - 2014-10-02 15:16:24 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Zifrian wrote:
After reading a lot of this and elsewhere, I don't see why jump freighters or rorquals should be affected by this in any way. That in itself should shave off most of the hate IMO.


Rapid transit of the 'win fleet' is only one facet of the problem at hand. Rapid safe transit of logistics is another. This clever change adresses both.


not to mention with all the intel channels in this game, a capital fleet moving away from home to attack or defend one area has greater implications for another area left open.

Wars on 2 fronts will make alliances work for it, forcing diplomacy to the max.
Emizeko Chai
Freight Club
#3380 - 2014-10-02 15:16:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Emizeko Chai
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Tribal Trogdor wrote:
About caps jumping gates:

1) Carrier gate camps - If they sit 0 on gate, they have more than enough subcap killing potential along with enough RR potential to wait out 60 seconds of aggro if needed. This wouldn't be so bad in null as there are bubbles to keep them on the other side, but in low, how is this to be countered? Breaking a fair amount in under 60 seconds would take a fair amount of dreads, which have to siege and get stuck for 5 minutes, while the carriers are only stuck for 60. If the carriers jump out via the gate, they can align out, blap anything that might be sat on the other side to stop them (as most are stuck next door and the real DPS cant follow) and dock up. Even in null though, the dreads are still stuck out of the fight, unless of course they burn to the gate, jump in, and hope the archons hadn't reapproached in the time O.o

2) Cyno Jammers - Drop cyno next door, warp to gate, jump in. Kinda kills the point of it, yea?


- If you can get tackle on the other side, capitals generally take a while to get back to the gate. It ought to be manageable.

...


Greyscale: No tackle can be achieved if the carrier pilot does things properly, because a ship with a jump drive and gate cloak can always jump out before being targeted.

The carrier gate camp in the example would just cyno out after jumping through gate. There is no counter after a jump from gate cloak. The only possible method would be applying seriously large amounts of neuts to one while it waited aggro before gate jump. With 45000+ GJ capacitors, that is going to require a substantial amount of neuts to put a single carrier out of the group at risk.
EDIT: And can itself be countered by having others remote cap the player waiting to gate jump.

Before you let all capitals use gates, I hope you consider that gate cloak with jump cap is a get out of jail free card.