Wormholes

i'm willing to forget bout the RR derp for the fabulous fallout THAT thread will cause.

:popcorn:

Greetings greater wormhole community,

It seems everytime a really poorly thought out CCP idea comes out I decide to write a long reply to some thread, followed by maybe Copy pasting it into my own thread because #relevence. So here it goes...

CCP, What were you thinking? You were probably thinking oh Sleepers aren't actually remote repping, we should probably fix that because it says on EVE-Survival they do. I could harp on how you completly ignore the community for an entire 5000 Characters like I did last threadnought, but I shall spare you the criticism for the most part as your absolute blindness to the issue you keep time and time again putting yourselves into is apparent, and if it is not by now, you should rethink your business model.

Onto the game play that you have so generously added. I am the CEO of a very small C4 Corp, we run sites every so often, more often than we want to because the sites are so abysmal and mind numbingly boring (see Sleepers spawning off the grid in Data Relic Sites). This change once again hurts smaller groups as you have already done with the Hyperion change in the previous update. I will be running C4 Sites tonight to try and provide some numbers behind this, but we shall see if that actually happens. I would be 100% OK with this change if and only if you increased the rewards from lower class sites. For the love of bob, I can now 100% make more whacking off and pressing F1 with some "FC" raging on comms running incursions. This is unacceptable.

I have 2 more points before I'll let you ignore my post competly.
1) Time and time again you make changes without consulting the community and backing your reasoning up with evidence.
2) There has been more responses in a few hours to the nullsec jump range change than there have been on this current issue AND on the Jump Spawn Distance released in Hyperion.

Let that last one sink in members of WH space.

-Luft Reich
Willing to have a forum war with a CCP Member, come at my law degree.

Around two years ago I was living in a C4 and flying a Scorpion, because otherwise we took forever to beat the remote reps (it also was a useful break on incoming DPS, which was good because I got so much aggro and armour-tanked scorpions have near-cruiser EHP). I remember getting sworn at if I permajammed things, because they'd try to burn out of jam-range...


So yeah, this has been broken quite a while, but we already knew how to deal with it back then, we'll be fine from here. C4s are probably going to go back to being naff again, with their ridiculously spread out spawns already being time consuming to deal with.

Maybe because it was set up wrong and now they're fixing it? You guys are no different from the industry pubbies that howled over the Crius changes.

Yeah tbh you are right about the C1/2, it has been a long time since i ran them.

As for C3 yes it is an issue, not everyone running C3's is a max skill pilot and flying bling ships. For a C3 site the Fortification, solar Cell and the Oruze just got slower for a pilot that is already making less then he could in HS safely.

C4's that just got extra risk added with Mass/distance and dual statics have now been nerfed some more with RR. It is a bit rich when we got these changes that we all asked for extra reward to then get things nerfed further for them.

Overall it is just a change that Wh space didn't need after Hyperion. The change we needed and we had asked for was more ISK for low end WH's to bring people in and to make them want to risk ships in the now more dangerous WH space for the extra reward.

But this well i am not sure how it could ever help WH space.

extra risk? c4s are totally broken right now...

Thank you!

While sleeper RR was always intended to exist, the current brokenness of C4s begs for a slight re-balance. All this blatant misdirection by bored nullbears is getting in the way of fixing any problems.

I think the point was that currently sites don't provide enough incentive to be run. I'm talking about solo or small group. It's not just paranoia - there's the issue of that income was too low full stop to make small gangs work either. The break point for wormhole effort=income seems to sit at c3. There in c3 running in pairs or in groups of 3 is practical but not optimal. This is outside of the possibility of getting slam dunked of course.

People look for ganks in wormholesm it's their right to do so I suppose but then they create this barren wasteland of inactivity because operating in wormholes is disproportionately more risky for venture startups than it is profitable. More than just the risks presented by other players (where the outright occlusion of alts would benefit the game immensely) but also a game balanced around incomes that were relevant 5 years ago. Blue loot doesn't pay enough to warrent the cost for most groups.

Yeah no. IMHO, C4's are not now, nor ever were "solo" content. Doesn't mean it can't be done, but it also doesn't mean people need to shout the sky is falling when CCP appears to make a legitimate fix and in the end makes solo running harder. C4's as small-group PVE are quite viable, and when one considers the ISK risk versus reward, they are still competative with C5/C6 escalations, all things considered (setup time, ISK on grid, risk of losing a ship, risk of non-consensual PVP, etc.). Also, with the right fleet comp, Sleeper spawn range is not nor has ever been an issue. In fact, C4 sites have become warp to zero, apply dps, rinse and repeat. Even at times splitting the fleet across 2 sites to minimize the wasting of dps. As a single fleet, the dps and tank on grid are a non-trivial force to reckon with and that alone provides defense from the casual gank, but certainly not the 80 man Gank-O-Rama fleet seen recently.

Proper scanning and scouting minimizes the risk, but by definition this hurts the solo runners due to lack of toons to cover the statics and anything else opening up. And unlike a cap escalation, any competent fleet can make the fight/flight decision in a matter of seconds before the whole plex fleet is committed. Again, bastion makes that impossible in many cases, hurting the solo guys.

What has hurt C4 income potential more than anything else are the nanoribbon prices versus years past. I do remember when 7-8 mil was the going rate, ah the days. Changes in supply and demand have moved the majority of the income potential to the blue loot. As much as I hate the PVP aspect of more empty w-space, it should help the nanoribbon prices by dropping supply and in turn increasing sell prices.

Now, having said all that, if there needs to be a rebalance, it should take place in an obvious manner C1 < C2 < C3 < C4 income. Unfortunately, due to "our", meaning w-space folks, willingness to spend ISK on bling fits, the progression in difficulty is broken. Likely, even C3 were not intended for solo running, but that is easily done now. It will be a difficult rebalance in income versus risk between C3 and C4 for this very reason. So I believe by default, if you want to bring this in line, you must increase C4 site income because lowering C3 income seems foolish.

And let's spice things up a bit more. Give C4's sites with random triggers. Then, after a certain mass of ships is on-grid, escalate with extra Safeguards or Preserver BS. Let's absolutely force group content. This would make C4 running much more fun.

Just my 2 cents, but I and the vast majority of my corp members have dealt with a C4 static for years now, and been very successful making a living from them to fund our PVP habits.

EDIT: And to be clear, I am no fan of all this new connectivity, but it doesn't "break" C4 either...

Good points all.

I think the last WH town hall had someone suggest Marauder escalations in C4s, which I think is a great idea. Hopefully Corbexx's work on lowclass income will yield other fruit (more blue loot or w/e).

We had a C4 stat for over a year and developed into shield RR domis - no MJD/bookmarking required, just a signal amp and a flight of bouncers (and roll if you get a magnetar static).