These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
Hiply Rustic
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1581 - 2014-10-01 22:16:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Hiply Rustic
What entities are either not seriously impacted or stand to gain from the changes?

And wtf does this even mean?

"We expect the impact of these changes to be emergent, and as a consequence are unpredictable and will take a while to develop on TQ. This plays into our longer-term plans, as you’ll see in a second!"

How can something whose effects you bluntly state you don't know fit in with your long term plans, unless your long term plans are being built on a dart board?

Ralph King-Griffin wrote: "Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied." EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.

Aleks Cave
TheAuthority
#1582 - 2014-10-01 22:17:01 UTC
I think Sir Molle cooked up all this hocus pocus!!!

Is the era of BoB on our doorsteps again?
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#1583 - 2014-10-01 22:17:08 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
Quote:
Yes, caching is going to be something of a thing, but the amount of caches you need to get good coverage of the bulk of the cluster is large (somewhere on the order of 1 per region), and the effort involved in restocking them is distinctly non-trivial.


It's cute how you think that we can't/wont do that.

This is nothing but a massive nerf to attackers. I have always been a fan of your game design ideas and decisions. But this is complete and utter bullshit that goes exactly in the opposite direction of where things should go. We need things to attack that are not sov. Not reasons to not attack anything at all.


We know you *can*, if you apply yourselves. The intent is that you will find that you don't *need* to and you actually don't *want* to either.

Oh, rest assured, players will not *want* to. Just as players do not *want* to take a high SP-character, spend 120 Billion ISK, and then lock it away in a POS for the rest of its existence. Just as players do not *want* to manually fly a freighter from Metropolis to Jita and back again. Just as players do not *want* to grind anomalies day-in, day-out to make ISK. Players do a lot of things in this game they do not *want* to do, and they do them because it allows them the capability to do what they actually *do* want to do.

If caching is advantageous, then it will be done, whether players *want* to or not. And the non-trivial nature of it makes it all the more attractive, as an organized logistics train will still make it feasible, even easy, for a large group to maintain supply. Smaller groups simply won't have the infrastructure to compete.
iskflakes
#1584 - 2014-10-01 22:17:26 UTC
CCP you have fundamentally misunderstood why nullsec has reached it's current state. It is not because forming a coalition is easy, it's because there's no cost in doing so. There is no reason not to bring more people.

After these changes, there is STILL no reason not to bring more people, and so the coalitions will remain.

This game was not dieing due to a lack of freighter escort operations and 7 month cooldowns, it was dieing due to the stagnant meta of "bring more people" and "not fighting is more rewarded than fighting".

CCP, fix the actual problem please. Six months from now you will be looking at subscriber numbers that are still declining, power blocks which still exist, and an even more blue doughnut with no capitals to counteract the subcap blob (oh and half your capital owning hub players will be gone).

-

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1585 - 2014-10-01 22:17:28 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


Ok fine....if they are willing to pay you just for the right to farm, with no involved force projection or protection, then you can carry on. But I think part of the expectation of renters is that the sov holder takes action to make the rented area safe, including hotdropping when necessary. The goons definitely made defense fleets to hunt down MOA. These changes make it a lot more painful to move around, and will at the very least force the renters to more actively protect themselves, putting downward pressure on the rental fees, and somewhat financially harming the large nullblocks.


We use fast cruiser gangs, if someone tries to take sov we deploy the main fleets. This isn't going to be hard to adapt to.

Why are some of your members whinging and rage quitting on this thread then if it doesn't affect you. I agree, goonswarm will still be able to easily protect its empire with subcapitals, but your line soldiers all seem to be throwing toys out the pram and quitting, in which case you wont have pilots to fly said sub capitals.


You do know Goons have thousands of people and most of them (like most eve players) will never post on a forum right?
Torneach Structor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1586 - 2014-10-01 22:17:46 UTC
This will be an interesting change indeed.

However, there are a few things to consider, both for the people in nullsec and CCP.

For those of you in nullsec, I've seen a few posts about getting to a "hot region" for fights and how that will be incredibly difficult. That's the entire point. CCP wants to make every region a "hot region" - you should be focusing on your own little patch of grass and the ones right next to it, not the one across town.

Now for CCP, resource distribution is a massive thing to consider here. Logistics will be made quite a bit more difficult with this change, as I'm sure you're aware. Right now nullsec is lacking in mexallon and isogen, which are kind of important for building stuff, and there just isn't enough of it to meet demand, thus resulting in needing to import either it or the ships/mods themselves. You'll need to fix that somehow to make local industry viable in nullsec without hisec logistics backup.

Also, you need to look at the moon distribution - as it stands, moons are distributed mostly by area of space. If you made it so that every region had a handful of each moon type, and a special type that is more common in particular areas, that would probably be a help. The same goes for ice.

But anyway, things will be very interesting. Nullsec people: don't freak out, and give CCP good feedback. CCP: Listen to the feedback - don't get all tunnelvisioned here.

The next few months are going to be incredibly crucial for the future of EVE - don't goof it up.
CanIHave YourStuff
In Praise Of Shadows
#1587 - 2014-10-01 22:17:46 UTC
Hi,

Please see my character name and contract me in-game you massive babbies. LMAO not since the nano nerf have I seen such sperging.

Adapt or cry Grandad.
cpu flag
The Replicators
#1588 - 2014-10-01 22:17:52 UTC
dont do that.. that suck...... ccp vil only loss player's alot...

let all the big alliance be big us the small must just be smartere whit we are...


ccp dont do it.... the small alliance vil conquer...




ccp let us get more new Region's the game in sted of making the jumpin think

Shojin Askulf
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1589 - 2014-10-01 22:18:14 UTC
As we have seen in many different blogs CCP can be classed as out of touch with 0.0 life especially the sov mechanic but who is to blame ? we all are, it is actually quite simple, in the distant past a certain event happened I will not go into details the info is out there for all to see when an employee of CCP was a little enthusiastic with gifts to his corp and alliance mates.

At that time from what I understand most if not all member of the company were forbidden from having alts in the major alliances.

How can a set of developers ever have a good idea or knowledge of game play they are unable to take part in ?

Bring back the good old days where we only had to worry about corruption and bias at least then they made decisions on actual first hand knowledge.
Raptor McGee
BRIGADA UNO
#1590 - 2014-10-01 22:18:14 UTC
Min Mar wrote:
I'm sorry to say that you are (once again) penalizing the small entrepreneurial groups with your changes and it's going to kill the game.

My current JF route is slightly over 30 LYs and requires 3 jumps with maximum skills. As I understand it, I am now going to need seven (7) jumps to get to my destination, aside from cool down timers. Please do not tell me to use gates, that is simply absurd since I can't have a subcap fleet with me every time I need to bring fuel/supplies back to null.

I am sure there are many pilots who have to jump even longer distances with JFs and while I understand your logic for trying to slow down bat phone deployments, this change will impact the average null bear in a detrimental way for the game. Why are JFs being penalized in the same way as SCs or caps?

I am afraid that if this change goes through as announced, I'll be looking for something else to do with my spare time. It was fun while it lasted.


If I can't use my jump freighters I can't move good out of null, so what is the point of producing locally. I will NOT move a jump freighter through a normal gate. 6 billion isk taclked by 2000 isk. That is what I look for in fun.
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#1591 - 2014-10-01 22:18:54 UTC
Want to hear a true story about me? When i was in Frege i flew a resupply hauler from jita to ngm in the drone region without jump bridges or pos bridges. Instead my ALLIANCE came out and escorted me until i got to home base. So thats called teamwork. Granted the logistics was hard, but we did it. And people enjoyed doing that more than ratting. Logistics ops were anniying but were fun since we were working as a team to accomplish something.

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.

Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#1592 - 2014-10-01 22:18:56 UTC
Budan Kado wrote:
CCP you are trying to kill the smaller alliances while allowing the major power blocks to rat in peace.

how about you change the values of the cool down timer and jump distance and make them tie in with the amount of people in your alliance and blue list.

the more people you have the cool down timer gets longer and the jump range gets shorter. for smaller alliances it would scale the other way allowing longer jumps and shorter cool down period.

your, CCP, changes will do nothing to break up the major blocks in nullsec, it will only allow them to defend their space since no one in their right mind will spend days waiting on cool down timers to expire.


It cuts both ways....sure it takes longer to get to the ratters and kill them. On the other hand, it's going to take a lot longer for the sov holders to respond, if they bother to do so at all. Plus they will often need to take gates rather than hotdropping on top of you, which makes it even hard to get surprised. So once you do catch some ratters, the chances of them getting saved approach 0.
Grant Sirus
Maekon Mercenaries
#1593 - 2014-10-01 22:20:02 UTC
Scarlet Intelis wrote:
Dominique Vasilkovsky wrote:
Excellent changes, can't wait to see how the sov map will look like in 6 months.


Spoiler Alert : About the same. Sov, is a completely different problem to power projection. Sov flipping takes a lot of time, this changes nothing about that.


No, it changes it a bit in the fact that it will take days to move a cap fleet to a system to kill any true sov structures.

If CCP does this, I believe that it wouldn't be that hard to allow Supers and Titans the ability to dock as well as use the gates.
Glen Morange
Perkone
Caldari State
#1594 - 2014-10-01 22:20:15 UTC
So, the clonejumping wrongheadedness aside, the following are problems:

Obvious Problems:

1. This eliminates the ability for re-enforcement fleets to be mustered from the fallen. The first round you could take two bridges and make it to a fight.

2. This only IMPROVES defence. Attackers cannot easily move in to a region, you have to capture gateway systems (3 days) and then you start to push in. Defenders already have ships and supplies in the area, but the attackers cannot move things because they either need to move them from outside (and how do you do that when you ? Have fun. The issue in NULL is not on the defence, it is on offence.

3. Single accounts should be able to do more than just be on the front lines waiting for the next Clarion Call (welp, it was fun RNK, no more pipebombs!)

4. Players now MUST have multiple accounts. It goes from this "have more so you can train in to new things" to "you can only ever be in one area ever."

Obvious BETTER solution:

Make the cooldown on the ships. Treat it like damage so you cannot repackage the ship to get rid of it.

This eliminates so many of the issues with the jump change. The flavor make sense, the logic is better, and it allows supplies to move and pilots (players) move without massive "now quit playing while your cooldown goes away" penalties.

It also makes the whole podjumping change unnecessary.


Aleks Cave
TheAuthority
#1595 - 2014-10-01 22:20:30 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
Want to hear a true story about me? When i was in Frege i flew a resupply hauler from jita to ngm in the drone region without jump bridges or pos bridges. Instead my ALLIANCE came out and escorted me until i got to home base. So thats called teamwork. Granted the logistics was hard, but we did it. And people enjoyed doing that more than ratting. Logistics ops were anniying but were fun since we were working as a team to accomplish something.



who the **** wants to listen about FREGE?!?!
Glen Morange
Perkone
Caldari State
#1596 - 2014-10-01 22:21:12 UTC
Grant Sirus wrote:
Scarlet Intelis wrote:
Dominique Vasilkovsky wrote:
Excellent changes, can't wait to see how the sov map will look like in 6 months.


Spoiler Alert : About the same. Sov, is a completely different problem to power projection. Sov flipping takes a lot of time, this changes nothing about that.


No, it changes it a bit in the fact that it will take days to move a cap fleet to a system to kill any true sov structures.

If CCP does this, I believe that it wouldn't be that hard to allow Supers and Titans the ability to dock as well as use the gates.



So, sov will change even less because nobody can attack it?
Ehud Gera
Wildcard.
Boundary Experts
#1597 - 2014-10-01 22:22:02 UTC
Octoven wrote:
Force projection IS the catalyst for many large scale engagements, the problem you are running into CCP is not that there are too many large fights and not enough smaller ones, its that you keep making changes like this and forcing vet players out of the game.


Or maybe you aren't thinking about it long term? More content is created by more friction between a varied number of entities.

If you localize space then it becomes harder to buddy up with large groups (blue donuts) cause you logistically can't rely on each other for support, therefore more people form separate groups which fight for more things which creates more overall content, not massive TIDI fleet battles between the two big players who've been fighting for years over nothing because "spaceships".

Maybe Eve needs more new players getting involved in it's politics and landscape. Maybe that would keep it vibrant. Maybe that would give it life. I'm all for that.

#goontearsbesttears #downwiththeman
Knerf
Original Sinners
Pandemic Legion
#1598 - 2014-10-01 22:22:51 UTC
Sooo basically every major alliance will pick their entrance system to live in so they are close to resources. Any alliance that wishes to have sov has to get past those powerhouses hugging high sec?
Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad
Against ALL Authorities
#1599 - 2014-10-01 22:23:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Schmell
Quote:
The length of this timer is a number of minutes equal to your jump fatigue (before being increased by that jump!), and you are unable to make another jump of any kind until this timer expires.


Can you clarify this please? Does that mean that if i take a jumpbridge with any ship, i will be unable to jump through gates, or this "jump of any kind" is only about jumpdrives/bridges?
Kenneth Skybound
Gallifrey Resources
#1600 - 2014-10-01 22:23:41 UTC
SUGGESTION

Limit fatigue to 1 month.

Firstly, a penalty of more than a month is not seen in any other game mechanic aside from losing something forever. T3's cost you a few days training tops, alpha clones at most a month, kill rights last a month etc.

Secondly, a 1 month fatigue would produce a jump cooldown of 3 days. This is sufficiently penalizing for any situation to stop excessive movement. I doubt anyone is going to say 5 LY per 3 days is OP.

Thirdly, reaching such a fatigue require a couple days and multiple back to back jumps under the currently proposed system. You'd have to know what you're getting yourself into and be dedicated to it.

A max of 1 month of fatigue cooldown, thus 3 days of jump cool down, is sufficient. Especially when careful time management can lead to 8 jumps a day at max range in 2 jump pairs.

BLOPs adjustments

Enh, you've seen a million people state this one already, I'll just reiterate it. They kinda live on jumping around, so perhaps a range scaling similar to the JF one, though not as nice neither. Perhaps a exponential scale, where 1 LY is treated like a 0.1 LY (10% range influence) while 7.875 LY is treated like 5 LY (a 63.5% range influence). The mid ground of about 4 LY would then want to be around 30% influence, giving a fatigue multiplier of 2.2 which shouldn't be anywhere near as prohibitive as a multiplier of 5.