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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Praal
Bearded BattleBears
#1481 - 2014-10-01 21:50:22 UTC
flakeys wrote:
So you're saying you rather have one massive brawl once a year then a crapload of better fights throughout the whole year?Seems odd as BRAVE allways says they are about fun-fights , especially as if i recall right one of your main FC's for example wasn't too happy with PL interfering with your fights vs provi , you know the type of interfering this whole ''nerf'''is trying to solve.Not to mention the station-egg that got supered out of existance ....

Except they are not better fights. Groups that have an advantage in skill / numbers / SP / ISK / organization will still have that advantage. PL will still intervene, probably with T3 fleets.

Should the overall projection be somewhat nerfed? Definetely. But to a point where you can use caps for one fight a day, max, if it's very close (in your corner of your own region), is way overboard. Imo any real fix combines projection nerfs with power nerfs. Right now slowcat / dread / super fleets are too powerful to be contested by subcap fleets (that don't overwhelm them in numbers). Their power compounds too well thanks to reps. They need to be more susceptible to subcaps, reducing their power and perhaps by improving battleships as a counter.

Ncc 1709 wrote:
Big alliances wont be screwed at all for power projection. youll just see a fleet of 250 nullified ceptors burning around going to a system where theres 250 fitted carriers waiting that's within a jump or two of the destination.

alliances already do this with cyno toons and they have the income these days to start setting up cache's of such ships.

bubble the station to stop them I hear. ceptors are bubble immune, and 250 carriers undocking and letting lose drones is enough to scare off most camps.

Exactly. This hurts everyone who uses jump ships (be it for battle or supply), wether they're a corp of 10, an alliance of 1000 or a coalition of 10000. The thing is the coaltions, especially the richer, more experienced ones have more tools to circumven it through ISK/time/organization.
marVLs
#1482 - 2014-10-01 21:50:42 UTC
It's so cool, just think about how much this will create new gamplay,cool situations, storys etc
Hicksimus
Torgue
#1483 - 2014-10-01 21:51:29 UTC
Lucrii Dei wrote:

Renting is why you have no content.



We have a winner!

Recruitment Officer: What type of a pilot are you? Me: I've been described as a Ray Charles with Parkinsons and a drinking problem.
h4kun4
Senkawa Tactical Division
Crimson Citadel
#1484 - 2014-10-01 21:51:32 UTC
A jump range nerf is a legitimate idea to make power projection slower, also the cooldown can be acceptable, but the fatigue is the most terrible idea i have ever heared since i play eve. I would rather accept one year development effort in "Walking in Stations" than a jump fatigue which makes your account useless for a day after three jumps, i certainly dont play and pay this awesome game to wait.

(altough cooldwons are a very terrible gameplay element and only nice on certain modules like cloaks, MJDs and so on)

If all ships with a Jump Drive would recieve a nerf to the current minimum Jump distance of 7 LJ and all fuel costs staying the same the basic speed of power projection would change notably without totally killing it.

Funfact: All people i talked with who liked the change never used a jump drive.

No whine, i am just really concerned you guys at CCP are being too drastic again with the "change all the things".
Travelling all over new eden in one day, next day dont even leave the region due to cooldwons.
Many old players will probably unsub which is not a good deal, and i am quite unsure about how i will go on playing in nullsec.

The thing with the "remove the deathclone speed travelling" is actually a pretty nice idea to limit power projection. Many large entitys will lose many moons and pocos in lowesc and will unrent all those shiny offices all over new eden.

Question i have:
Will the fatigue go with sold characters? I just imagine i would buy a supercap char with a fatigue of a few weeks...i would be reasonably pissed off pretty much xD
Laboratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1485 - 2014-10-01 21:51:36 UTC
Bamboozlement wrote:

Enjoy your no-content and more and more small pvp entities like PIZZA will spawn around you, if you call that winning then yes you'll win.

LolLolLolLol


That's the point.
With fatigue accruing from simple JB movement there will be less and less reason to hang around as you can't get back to your combat ships after doing _anything_ else.
With the small non-sov holding entities not being able to supply at NPC stations, they will die out and not be around.
Delve has been awesome in the past months in it's "undock for instant pvp" aspects. But the proposed patch will end all the small scale pvp.
No more casual access to small gang pvp. In the future since the west is 100% secure from any outside incursions only deployments will result in pvp. And those won't be small scale.

This patch will fail in all it's intended goals I'm afraid :(
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#1486 - 2014-10-01 21:51:52 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


More than enough time for all the ratting carriers to be reduced to rubble, and the MOA folks to be long gone. 20 minute trip by megathrons >> 1 minute deployment by cyno.

So who exactly is going to pay rental fees to you if you are going to be completely unable to protect them?


Implying that we protect dumb renters ratting in carriers now.


Ok fine....if they are willing to pay you just for the right to farm, with no involved force projection or protection, then you can carry on. But I think part of the expectation of renters is that the sov holder takes action to make the rented area safe, including hotdropping when necessary. The goons definitely made defense fleets to hunt down MOA. These changes make it a lot more painful to move around, and will at the very least force the renters to more actively protect themselves, putting downward pressure on the rental fees, and somewhat financially harming the large nullblocks.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1487 - 2014-10-01 21:52:09 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Jenn aSide wrote:


Reducing the number of hot drops in a game whose economy depends on ships going boom is not and never can be a good thing. CCP is making a bad move here, it remains to be seen how long after it's implemented for this to sit in with them. I expect 'un-nerfs' within 6 to 12 weeks of this change.


That logic also suggests that giving ships a 10% chance to explode every minute would be a good change. I don't wholly trust that logic.



It's good that you don't trust it as I never said anything of the sort. I'm someone who gains from what you are doing. I'm saying that the thought process here is fatally flawed, and that the result will likely be the opposite of what you should be wanting. Fewer ships exploding instead of more. More stagnation in stead of less. Higher barrier for non-established groups rather than lower. Basically the anom nerf all over again.

I don't expect you all to not proceed with this change nor do I feel like it will be the end of EVE, null sec and rainbows after a spring shower. I do think that you guys are making an (avoidable) error that will have mostly negative (and only a few positive) results. of course I could be wrong and it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

But I don't think I am wrong here, so this post is bookmark for future space-bludgeoning.
Shepard Skor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1488 - 2014-10-01 21:52:23 UTC
I really like CCPs new update rythm. They make Eve a better game for us nearly every month. Thank you for that :)

I don't understand all that rage here since it's one of the best changes I've ever seen so far.
Pls. bring this update live asap so that new players finally have at least sort of a chance against old players and pvp gets a step closer to balance.
Also it will probably bring more life to high- and low-sec (since 0.0 life gets harder, like it should) where the greatest part of the game should take place.
Maybe there will be fights between large incursion groups and FW maybe really comes to life. Thats the only real lategame content anyway ( not the booring nullsec carebearing/renting/botting ).
And last but not least it may end booring blop fights and turns the game into more intensive small scale fights where pilot skills count isntead of numbers. May also solve TiDi probs.
So all in all I'm really looking foward to the new update.
Doctor Fabulous MD
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1489 - 2014-10-01 21:52:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctor Fabulous MD
Veers Belvar wrote:


So who exactly is going to pay rental fees to you if you are going to be completely unable to protect them?



You do realize that we don't protect renters from roaming gangs in any way already right?

And that to harass us the smaller entities will need to actually deploy (which has become a massively massively tedious "id rather kill myself" proposition)

And any sov timers will be far more than long enough for us to respond?
Iori Asano
Bodacious Space Pirates
#1490 - 2014-10-01 21:52:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Iori Asano
The drone regions will now become the largest group of regions that can be easily defended with bubbles.
Blind D'Runk
Perkone
Caldari State
#1491 - 2014-10-01 21:53:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Blind D'Runk
RDevz wrote:
Mona Zoid wrote:

Remember when eve had no JF?


We had a nyx full of haulers, with the haulers full of stuff. Before that, we had carriers full of haulers. Good times~


Remember when EVE have no Nyx or Carriers or Warp to 0?
Bad times.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#1492 - 2014-10-01 21:53:12 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Speaking of renters, we're going to expand our rental program with these changes. Thanks!

So I am guessing your going to switch to a sub capital doctrine and deploy them in multiple locations where you have renters. Still a positive change for the game so fine by me. Your still going to have to make a choice which area to defend unless you want to use interceptors to travel between due to the jump clone timer.
Hoshi
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#1493 - 2014-10-01 21:53:32 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Burneddi wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Summer Isle wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Does this make it too difficult for new pilots to get out into 0.0?
Yes, it probably does. We are going to look at this tomorrow to try and make this easier.

Make it so you can only change stations if your clone is currently an Alpha clone, but you can only upgrade your clone if you're currently in the station with it. A new character, still in their Alpha clone, could jump into nulsec without difficulty (or anywhere, for that matter), but an older character will either have to sacrifice some SP, or will have to hoof it the long way.


Interesting idea.

You'll have to change SP loss mechanics if you do this, because as they stand that's a false choice; no one will ever pick the SP loss.

Getting podded in an Alpha clone if you have a few dozen million SP means you lose 2-3 weeks of training. That's more than "some SP", and no one will ever pick that option voluntarily.


Yup, in practice I wouldn't expect anyone to use it, but it gives a fairly straightforward way to cap the ability to use this sort of technique to genuine new players only. I'm not saying we'll do it, I just think it's an interesting suggestion to consider :)

I keep all my cyno alts in an alpha clone SP level as that gives me option to deathclone to stations without a medical facility without fearing loss of important skills. So not only genuine new players have only alpha clones. But considering how limited cap jumping are going to be anyway with this I don't really see a problem with allowing cyno alts to pod jump like genuine new players.

"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
Lucrii Dei
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1494 - 2014-10-01 21:53:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucrii Dei
Doctor Fabulous MD wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


So who exactly is going to pay rental fees to you if you are going to be completely unable to protect them?



You do realize that we don't protect renters from roaming gangs in any way already right?

And that to harass us the smaller entities will need to actually deploy (which has become a massively massively tedious "id rather kill myself" proposition)

And any sov timers will be far more than long enough for us to respond?

Right?


Again, this is why you have no content. Stop renting and give up those empty swathes of space you're not even using so that people can perhaps move in and generate content! Smile

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EVEcandy™; An EVE Gallery!

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Kraizer793
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1495 - 2014-10-01 21:53:45 UTC
No.

No.

I don't mind the jumping through the gates. I think this could create compelling and engaging gameplay.

The jump fatigue is WAY too long of a timeframe and much too heavy handed.

And the jump range will make capitals obsolete. Too many negatives (Cost, size, speed, easily caught and killed) and not enough benefits to their use.

Whatever credit the CSM and CCP have gained with the community in the past few years is pretty much down the toilet judging by the 70+ pages within less than 24 hours, and for good reason: changes like this prove to the community that they are not being represented by the CSM and that CCP is not listening to player feedback as it is presented to them.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#1496 - 2014-10-01 21:54:10 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Makari Aeron wrote:
As it stands, I believe this plan, while interesting is going to kill off T2 production in EVE, especially nullsec. There is no possible way to move large quantities of moongoo easily anymore.


It's going to have a significant impact, to be sure, and that's something we need to keep an eye on. At the same time, though, people built T2 ships and modules before jump freighters existed, so we're somewhat skeptical of the argument that that T2 construction is impossible without JFs.



really? really???
do i need to remind you that before JFs existed you where able to move 60k-90k m3 of stuff with a dread or carrier?
do i need to remind you that when you first introduced the damn jfs, no one was really using them? that you guys had to do a number of nerfs on carriers and dreads so that ppl will finally start using jfs in large numbers?

and now you are telling us this crap? where you even working at ccp when that change happent?
Jevexus
Negative Transversal
#1497 - 2014-10-01 21:54:22 UTC
Im all for these changes and really looking forward to seeing what you have in mind for Stealth Bombers. The only thing I disagree with is applying these changes to Sub Caps, specifically Black Ops. Getting fatigue for using Blops would significantly lower their use and effectiveness. Blops having the extended range over Titans/Supers is great and gives them a niche of projection beyond anything else. If you stick the fatigue penalty on them, it makes it even more niche and limits the use.

Just my two cents, but I believe blops need to be exempt from the Fatigue mechanic or should be significantly lower for Sub Caps, like maybe an order of magnitude. Keep up the good work.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1498 - 2014-10-01 21:54:25 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

Ok fine....if they are willing to pay you just for the right to farm, with no involved force projection or protection, then you can carry on. But I think part of the expectation of renters is that the sov holder takes action to make the rented area safe, including hotdropping when necessary. The goons definitely made defense fleets to hunt down MOA. These changes make it a lot more painful to move around, and will at the very least force the renters to more actively protect themselves, putting downward pressure on the rental fees, and somewhat financially harming the large nullblocks.

no landlord does this, at all: all of the big three (na/bot/pblrd) say they'll defense against sov attacks only (and that's cause we want to continue to collect the rent)
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1499 - 2014-10-01 21:54:50 UTC
Shayle wrote:

Stop crying just because you're ******* lazy.


Have fun spending six hours on waiting out timers to simply move some basic goods from empire to null-sec! Maybe to combat that, they'll implement an undock timer too! When it's Grayscale at the helm, there is no such thing as surreal.

How about this? You can now only undock once every three hours because ~reasons~.

Meanwhile, you'll probably have issues finding other players around. They have daily routines called 'real life' and they spend time on 'jobs' for instance, so they already unsubscribed.

Enjoy.
Manks Girl
The Northerners
Pandemic Horde
#1500 - 2014-10-01 21:55:00 UTC
Just reading into a lot of the changes I do have to ask about the Black Ops changes.

It states that the range isn't going to be changed however it will still have the same "effects". Considering the BLOPS can jump further it is going to be penalised and the whole point for black ops is to project itself over different areas/regions undetected. This needs to be thought through a lot more as having to use gates is going to be suicide when potentially jumping into camps due to this jump lag timer.

I would propose the same sort of cool down time as the Rorq/JF or even none at all so at least they aren't nerfed into the floor to literally never being used again.