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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Solecist Project
#1261 - 2014-10-01 21:05:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
There once was a pilot in space,
from the proud amarrian race.

He suffered his fate ...
... and warped gate to gate ...

... until he logged off, not even worth bait.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Rutger Centemus
Joint Empire Squad
#1262 - 2014-10-01 21:05:42 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
I would like to remind people of player stargates that are coming soon. Linking key loints of you null sec empire closer together so you can jump you caps faster

You forgot the ® on "soon", but who knows - it might arrive sooner than the key to open up ambulation (how many years were spent on that feature again?)
Mona Zoid
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1263 - 2014-10-01 21:05:50 UTC
Axhind wrote:
Mona Zoid wrote:
If CCP have problem with 4000 ppl fights just set hard limit to 1000 people in a system and stop doing such awesome workarounds...


Or even better. Introduce instancing. Each region is it's own server. That would remove the power projection and evil blocs!



Oh yes, one instance for each of the big alliances... That sounds almost as good as the original idea...
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#1264 - 2014-10-01 21:05:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Re: these changes: Stahp, stahp....

Office space in lowsec just got a lot more expensive...

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1265 - 2014-10-01 21:06:15 UTC
I cannot believe the lack of insight the null working group brought forward with this dev blog.
These changes ~supposedly~ aim to limit capital and supercapital ships moving around with impunity.

However, every major entity worth a damn will be caching those around New Eden now, and will simply circumvent these poorly thought artificial restrictions brought forward by

* Using unstoppable insta align, travel fit interceptors to move pilots around
* Having jump clones around
* Using travel alts to move ships with jump drives, then switching to fully trained combat pilots

Hence, CCP achieves nothing towards limiting capital projection. But on the other hand, CCP manages to turn the majority of null an unlivable, logistical nightmare.

I'm sorry, I'm not going to spend hours of my life to simply move subcapitals around. I refuse to spend half a day simply to move minerals and my production goods to and from Jita. This is a game, not a second job.

I would like to extend my sincere gratitude to the team of geniuses led by Grayscale that make up the 'Null sec working group'. You are doing a great service to thousands of EVE players by driving them out of game and preventing them from wasting their time on a computer game. Provided these poorly thought changes go through, CCP is losing -6 subscriptions from me. So long and thanks for all the fish. See you all good folks in the next big space themed MMO.
Aladar Dangerface
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1266 - 2014-10-01 21:06:55 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Aladar Dangerface wrote:
As a wh citizen I'd like to say on behalf of all wh residents: hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaa. Delicious tears are delicious


Will they still be delicious when you realize that this change has a minimal effect on others (because null folk gots money) but shafts you and people like you in a place where the sun don't shine?

I know they will for me Big smile

Coz us wh folks are know to be poor?

I don't need twitter. I'm already following you.
Terraj Oknatis
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1267 - 2014-10-01 21:07:04 UTC
After waiting for 23.5 minutes at the convenient local station, his fatigue is down to 119.79. He jumps again, to 2R-CRW – 4.9 LY. At this point his cooldown timer is 2 hours 2 minutes 8 seconds, and his fatigue is 706.74. At this point his total distance travelled is 17.51 LY, leaving him with 37.04 LY to go. He looks at his map, and finds a 40-route jump through nullsec to get to the same destination.... He then transfers that capital to an alt and continues jumping happily.
Polo Marco
Four Winds
#1268 - 2014-10-01 21:07:35 UTC
POINT A:

Allowing caps and supers to freely roam the low and null star lanes using gates will in no way hinder the Megacorp's ability to project force. The speed will be less but the so will the risk. Smaller player entities will not have this luxury .The 50 player ABC alliance wouldn't dream of jeopardizing it's half dozen or so shiny capitals by inching them along the region pipeline... for ANY reason. Megacorp XYZ will not hesitate as they can field 150 other ships at will to scout and escort , and will be cheerfully reassured by the fact that the big ships will at no time have to risk depleting their capacitors just to get into play. Not only that, but no mere cyno jammer will force them to alter their plan at all. It will just take them 20 or 30 minutes to reach the target. Even jumping over to your ratting system will be a drag because you must wait fatigue out before getting out into the spawns or risk losing your ship since you can't jump out to safety.

Indeed lowering the defense capabilities of existing player structures would be EXACTLY the wrong thing to do against a threat which is actually MORE serious rather than less. The jump requirement is really the ONLY limit the game places on these beasts besides their cost. Plus, the inability of other nearby larger entities to quickly bring THEIR capitals to bear due to 'jump fatigue', will basically doom the smaller independent corps to have to endure a different kind of tyranny than that which they already suffer. Despite being a little less civilized than the current widespan sov rental system which we see today this rather drastic and ill conceived change will not change the status quo one iota.

POINT B:

Instead of decreasing the jump distance for combat capitals to match that of their non combat cousins, the JF and Rorqual, I would tend to simply swap their values. Give the non combat jumpers a range of 6 and 5 to the other caps and supers. Maybe even up noncombatants to 7, because the INTENT here is to repopulate and revitalize null. When you combine the difficulty in transshipping goods to pay the bills with the somewhat extreme rents sov holders like to charge for prime systems. its no wonder players are reluctant to come down and join the fun.

POINT C:

CONCORD sov costs would make an excellent tool to dismantle the mega renters. Fees should be LESS for active systems, dependent maybe on the industry military andstrategic indexes, possibly combined with friendly occupancy stats. Then fees should be MORE for entities who hold sov in more systems. This could actually result in somewhat of a 'land rush' when existing mega sov holders are forced to release their territory or go bankrupt. This combined with a more carefully considered and better balanced 'fatigue' rule should do much to get many more players out from under CONCORD's wing in the safety of empire.

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1269 - 2014-10-01 21:07:44 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
Quote:
Yes, caching is going to be something of a thing, but the amount of caches you need to get good coverage of the bulk of the cluster is large (somewhere on the order of 1 per region), and the effort involved in restocking them is distinctly non-trivial.


It's cute how you think that we can't/wont do that.

This is nothing but a massive nerf to attackers. I have always been a fan of your game design ideas and decisions. But this is complete and utter bullshit that goes exactly in the opposite direction of where things should go. We need things to attack that are not sov. Not reasons to not attack anything at all.


We know you *can*, if you apply yourselves. The intent is that you will find that you don't *need* to and you actually don't *want* to either.

Lord Mantus wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Does this make it too difficult for new pilots to get out into 0.0?
Yes, it probably does. We are going to look at this tomorrow to try and make this easier.



Basically we didn't fully think of all the things this would effect before suggesting it, but who cares.


Nope. Decided it was better to get feedback from players as early as possible, rather than trying to spot all the awkward cases ourselves and release a blog at the last minute. So far, it seems to be working.

David Magnus wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Tenguboi wrote:
CCP Greyscale can you confirm this will affect anchroed jumpbridges too?


Yes, it will.

Two step wrote:
A couple more questions (and thanks for replying to my first comment):

1) In the past you guys have said that CCP will be attempting to measure the effects of changes that have been made to evaluate the change. What criteria will you be using to measure this change? What measurable things will you be looking at to decide if this change was good or bad?

2) POS jump bridges are supposed to be a reward for holding space. Shouldn't there be some sort of reduce fatigue from using them vs using a titan bridge? Otherwise, why would sovholding alliances build and pay for them?


1) Don't have that to hand atm.

2) "Supposed to be"?

If an alliance wants to rip down all its bridges and just use titans, best of luck to them.



On the one hand you have tiericide trying to make no modules worthless, on the other hand you answer that you are ok with making game mechanics useless.

Two Step asks two very decent question here, your answers are a bit scary.


OK, let me rephrase that in a more direct way: titans are not a viable replacement for starbase jump bridges for most applications, for the following reasons:
- You need a pair of titans for each link
- They need to be logged on 23/7
- You also need one 23/7 cyno for each link (don't need two because you're daisy-chaining)
- Both bridges and cynos need to be kept perpetually fuelled
- You probably want to take some measures to stop them from being free kills, which adds to the complexity of the operation

For the majority of applications this is not an efficient option vs just using a jump bridge, so we do not believe that jump bridges are "useless" under this system when compared to titans.

Kat Ayclism wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Kat Ayclism wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Irya Boone wrote:
words


Just to make sure everyone's aware, doomsdays can't be fired at subcaps.

Why not- after this? (Serious question)


Because I took the ability to do so away from them almost exactly three years ago, and the reasons for doing so still hold :)


But now there is an increased susceptibility of them to subcaps- being permabumped when attempting to align to the next gate as an example. If supers traveling via gates should be possible if not preferred, then should they not also now have means to defend themselves?


As I mentioned earlier, there are solutions to this already, and I'm sure people will figure them out.
Smuts Mcnasty
Little Willies
#1270 - 2014-10-01 21:08:05 UTC
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
Smuts Mcnasty wrote:
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
Nagarisai wrote:
bp920091 wrote:
Congratulations CCP, you've made Stain and just about every single NPC 0.0 region uninhabitable.

Good job, I couldnt have created a faster way to kill smaller groups if i tried.



totally agree from your brothers in venal!, you will cut us off logistically from the rest of new eden.........i just dont know what to say.........theres gotta be a better way that this??


Thought that there were lots of ways already. Interceptors, deep space transports, convoys....you know, all the things that the stone-age players from around 2006 used?




Yeah great now we can provide more kills for goon pets awesome idea you should try it some time.


Somehow I think that goon pets are going to be busy with a lot of other things for quite a while after this change hits EVE...


Really been to tribute lately? i doubt that stick to what you know which is probably highsec mining its just made venal untenable and all other npc 0.0 regions. Congrats to the gsm for getting this idea brought in. However i think that will be me quitting this game as its worse than world of warcraft and theres a game i wouldnt play if you paid me. So now goons and thier pets will hellcamp all entrances to 0.0 leading to venal and it will kill small scale pvp if its going to take me 1 whole day to resupply ships lost actually doing small scale pvp.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#1271 - 2014-10-01 21:08:07 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Nova Fox wrote:
So...

1. Jump Ship
2. Clone Exits Ship
3. Fresh Clone Enters Ship
4. Jump Ship
5. Exited Clone Body Jumps Home
6. Rinse Repeat Until destination.


The actual logistics of doing this for a reasonable range of target systems are sufficiently involved that we do not expect it to happen in practice.

nobody would ever put a pos into a WH because ~effort~?

edit: the fix is probably to make the timer stick to the moved asset AND the body
edit2: if you don't do this people will just have an alt network for every major jump route and you will have to deal with a lot of account sharing problems


This turns into an issue. I'll even bring up an example of this.

Currently (yes in the game currently), wormholes have a undisclosed timer called "Polarization". The moment a person jumps through the same wormhole, they are polarized from that side. If they jump back, they are polarized from the otherside. If you try to jump through the same wormhole again, they can't. A invisible timer is still going. You would think polarization effects the ship? Nope, just the pod. You can leave ship, have another person who has no polarization jump into that same ship that was just polarized, and they can jump into and out of that same wormhole that "polarized" that ship.

This happens every so often with closing holes with orca's or battleships (why wait the 5 minutes and the warping time when you can just do that with 2 people (or 2 alts).

With the cost of pilots and the massive sale of jump capable character on the eve bazaar, it would be easy (if not comical) for people to have accounts full of jump characters just for moving ships as fast as humanly possible (jump the ships, log on the alt, rejump the ship, timer means nothing).

You have to polarize (or jump fatigue), the ships in addition to the pod.

Yaay!!!!
Yuri Thorpe
Volatile Restability
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#1272 - 2014-10-01 21:08:16 UTC
Scarlet Intelis wrote:
Yuri Thorpe wrote:
Now they just made 300 man carrier spidertanking slowcat fleets something that can now roam...

Oh boy, cant wait for that


Don't worry. The first 100au wide system that spidertanking slowcat fleet hits will destroy all the "fun" they were planning on having.

Oh thank god, I wouldn't want something fun to happen in my spreadsheet
Soridar Ravencroft
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1273 - 2014-10-01 21:08:21 UTC
Ralitge boyter wrote:
Soridar Ravencroft wrote:
OK...I know I don't always see the big picture in some issues, but as a cap pilot who actually uses my ships for basic moving, deploying of ships for diff PvE and other basic goofy null sec crap, THIS IS TOTAL CRAP...

This is a complete farce, and one in which it seems that the Devs responsible are either not cap pilots or just don't do anything other than point a..b..c..home and log, so they don't even have an iota of a clue as to the rest of the players they are screwing. These proposed changes are gonna hit the non sov aspects of EvE 1000% more than they will have any effect on sov warfare. I will break this down by points to clarify.

Effects on Joe the non combat cap pilot vs Sam the combat jockey:

Joe is always making jumps in his jump freighter to move and restock null while bringing goods from null to be traded in the hubs
Sam makes a max of 5 jumps a day...if there is a combat op at all

Joe not only has a JF for trading but enjoys a side business of transporting the ships of some friends for PvE goofyness like incurtions and such
Sam flies an interceptor looking for kills while not running his daily cap op, or just gate camps

Joe having one of the few JFs in his corp is called on for running POS fuel, moduals and system upgrades because no one else trained for it cause they wanted combat ships
Sam doesn't worry cause dreads are never needed for moving crap

Joe goes on cap ops when ever he is free to do so in his carrier
Sam goes on every cap op in his dread

This is a generalist look at how 2 cap pilots play the game, and while it doesn't represent everyone, it does fit a lot of pilots and how they play. So in the end what you really have is not nearly the nerf to combat projection but rather a significant nerf to trade, general game play and logistic capabilities.

If you really want to fix long distance force projection and the way in which capital ships are able to move and fight, then rather than some BS fatigue a pilot receives that changes a "jump cool down" instead have it effect combat skills and capabilities of the actual force being projected. I mean seriously, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that if you wanna effect how combat is controlled you penalize the combat skills.

Penalizing jumping itself does nothing other than break down the ability to travel, for good or ill, which last time I heard is not really the real issue here. This seems more of an arbitrary step in reducing and removing capital ships from the field which will not happen as those alliances and coalitions which the numbers and resources will instead just move capitals in anyways. Pilots rarely pay for the fuel for these campaigns, but rather the alliances themselves, which means costs of travel is rarely a concern for major powers.

The real issue here is that forces can stage from nearly any place in EvE and with a proper chain get to anywhere in a matter of tens of minutes, but that means rather little, as Interceptors can do the same and even do so safer, if not faster. So what really is of concern is what kind of power projection can be applied at long range. This is the real issue and should be what is effected.

The way this can be done is to have fatigue effect combat skills, especially those that are based on PvP combat. This ensures that no matter the size of your pilot base or your wallet, that force projection is weakened. Secondly it prevents other areas of the game that are NOT out of balance to be penalized due to bad planning. Third it doesn't effect pilots who where out doing basic trading, logistics and ferrying friends, when the call goes out that you are needed for an op.




I think you have a point in that the JF pilots are hit quite hard by this. On the other hand is that so bad?
It means fueling vast numbers of towers all over enormous swaths of space is going to be difficult. Thats not a bad thing in my book.

Making it harder to transport large amounts of material into deep 0.0 means simply that one will have to create a viable industrial base there with only the occasional move of goods in our out of your power base. This prevents over production will increase the risk to the pilots as they will need to move more goods the slow way and will therefore lead to more conflicts which is what the game is all about.

For me the only thing that I hear is I have a comfortable life the way I am now living therefore I want nothing to change and my near static income from jumping between a few cyno alts for a few minutes a day to continue fueling my ability to loose interceptors when PvP'ing.
EVE is hard it is supposed ot be that way, loss is something that is good and that will just force people to come up with more creative and better ways of dealing with the risks involved.



You are correct about it being harder, and that isn't bad. What makes me mad is they call this a combat nerf and that is far from the truth of it though.
Grarr Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#1274 - 2014-10-01 21:08:22 UTC
This is absolute crazy. I love it.
Cor'len
Doomheim
#1275 - 2014-10-01 21:08:33 UTC
Really, CCP?

You know, I don't even care about the combat capital nerf that much. It's really stupid, but then nullsec as it is today is really stupid. I just don't see this doing anything to reduce the influence of the massive coalitions either.


But you're nerfing JFs. That pisses me off. Huge nerf a few patches ago, and now this? Do you really hate logistics (as in "moving ****") pilots that much? Because hey, the feeling is mutual. Would it hurt so much for you to try to fix EVE by improving something as opposed to nerfing it?


*insert something rude about a cactus and CCP Greyscale's tender bits here*
Thalen Draganos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1276 - 2014-10-01 21:08:42 UTC
Migui X'hyrrn wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/eP7Dfq4.png

CCP how are you going to live there, for example.

Best place to rat with supers though.

Dev hacks of course.
Mashie Saldana
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#1277 - 2014-10-01 21:09:32 UTC
Sounds..interesting! Twisted

How to win EVE
Chase Hakoke
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1278 - 2014-10-01 21:09:37 UTC
CCP I'm not going to pretend to know what all these changes are going to do because they're so massive.... which I'm definitely excited about... could be great for the game or horrible.

I imagine the main point of this is to make the universe "bigger" so more local fights can take place. I agree with this in a combat sense. But, you've not only nerfed power projection, but all kinds of projection. What you've managed to do here is make the worst parts of eve more painful to do.... you should be diminishing the tedium that we have to endure.

Somehow nerf power projection without making it impossible to move to other parts of the galaxy in a non-combat fashion.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#1279 - 2014-10-01 21:09:39 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
I would like to remind people of player stargates that are coming soon. Linking key loints of you null sec empire closer together so you can jump you caps faster


yea, tell me more about how i will be able to build a gate form 0.0 npc space to low sec...
like really, this change will **** all the small corps/alliances living in npc 0.0; you will need to jump your jf true sov space. to do that you need to have poses up in much larger alliances space; how can a 20 man corp keep a pos network over some huge coalition sov space? set them blue? really?
better play wot
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#1280 - 2014-10-01 21:09:45 UTC
Battlestar Galactica. Spool up time before, recalibration time after.

They were not always accurate.