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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Josef Djugashvilis
#961 - 2014-10-01 20:02:42 UTC
This thread is getting to the point where more folk are 'threatening' to quit than the game has players.

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CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#962 - 2014-10-01 20:02:52 UTC
Burneddi wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Summer Isle wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Does this make it too difficult for new pilots to get out into 0.0?
Yes, it probably does. We are going to look at this tomorrow to try and make this easier.

Make it so you can only change stations if your clone is currently an Alpha clone, but you can only upgrade your clone if you're currently in the station with it. A new character, still in their Alpha clone, could jump into nulsec without difficulty (or anywhere, for that matter), but an older character will either have to sacrifice some SP, or will have to hoof it the long way.


Interesting idea.

You'll have to change SP loss mechanics if you do this, because as they stand that's a false choice; no one will ever pick the SP loss.

Getting podded in an Alpha clone if you have a few dozen million SP means you lose 2-3 weeks of training. That's more than "some SP", and no one will ever pick that option voluntarily.


Yup, in practice I wouldn't expect anyone to use it, but it gives a fairly straightforward way to cap the ability to use this sort of technique to genuine new players only. I'm not saying we'll do it, I just think it's an interesting suggestion to consider :)
Rutger Centemus
Joint Empire Squad
#963 - 2014-10-01 20:02:54 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Everything old is new again.



You're making a mistake here. You end up strangling the independents (people who live in npc null) in favor of the establishment (SOV folks like me). You should be doing the opposite really.

hilariously, the independents are not clever enough to figure out these changes and are filling this thread with joy at what they think is a nerf to us

holy moly is it going to be entertaining when they realize what happened

Never thought I'ld agree this wholeheartedly with a goon ;)
Sven Viko VIkolander
In space we are briefly free
#964 - 2014-10-01 20:02:56 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Retar Aveymone wrote:
I need to do the math on this, but the range change to Rorqs/JFs seems like a massive nerf if they're also getting the 5LY max treatment (which does not make sense given the blog says the intent is not to nerf them). Are they?


Yes, they are. The blog says the intent is not to nerf them too hard, not to not nerf them at all.


Why nerf them at all, why not buff them? Logistics for null/low corps/alliances of all sizes is one of the most tedious, un-fun activities in the game, but it is also what drives and sustains conflict--particularly in contexts like FW where constant supply of masses of ships is essential to taking a system. Groups won't be able to throw their cap fleet everywhere across the map-that's good--but these changes also make it harder for them to throw their subcap fleet across the map, such as during long-term deployments or restocking a FW hub with frigates etc. etc., and that seems bad.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#965 - 2014-10-01 20:03:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Veers Belvar
Also, big alliances won't be able to get to the far out reaches of their territory anymore. Solution - hold less territory, and cut down on renting.
Nora Ashaller
Why Did I Click Accept
#966 - 2014-10-01 20:03:11 UTC
After looking at the blog post related to this explosion of rage-tears, I'd say that you are releasing the changes in the wrong order.

Start with the changes to sov, especially if deterioration is going to be usage based, or release both the sov changes and the jump changes together.

As far as the jump distance changes go, having a bit of diversity on jump ranges wouldn't be a bad thing to keep even if the overall max range is reduced.
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#967 - 2014-10-01 20:04:20 UTC
The irony is that the majority of the people gloating in this thread are rookie corp players posting on an alt or living in empire still.

Just an FYI, to travel 31 LY in 8 jumps in a JF? Around an hour and 51 minutes waiting. Have fun with your logistics when you're 70 LY from jita.
Ranamar
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#968 - 2014-10-01 20:04:25 UTC
Summer Isle wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Does this make it too difficult for new pilots to get out into 0.0?
Yes, it probably does. We are going to look at this tomorrow to try and make this easier.

Make it so you can only change stations if your clone is currently an Alpha clone, but you can only upgrade your clone if you're currently in the station with it. A new character, still in their Alpha clone, could jump into nulsec without difficulty (or anywhere, for that matter), but an older character will either have to sacrifice some SP, or will have to hoof it the long way.


Another idea that doesn't hit nearly as hard and doesn't cost skill points: instead of the trivial 5000 ISK to move your clone, make it a function of SP. So, if you've got an expensive clone, you not only have to pay more to upgrade it, you also have to pay more to move it... and you can make moving clones a lot more expensive than losing pods.

On the other hand, neither of those penalize deathcloning disposable cyno alts around, and, honestly, podding cyno alts around is probably something else they want to nerf. (I might actually need to train infomorph psychology so I can JC my freight cyno between the endpoints depending on which way I'm going on a given day, now.)
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#969 - 2014-10-01 20:04:51 UTC
The jb timer thing reminded me, will caps be able to use jbs as well as gates?
BugraT WarheaD
#970 - 2014-10-01 20:05:08 UTC
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Shayle wrote:
Thank you CCP for having the balls to do this.

For anyone moaning about how tedious it will now be to travel across the map for a fight; that's the whole point! Find a fight closer to home, go reset your standings and destroy your neighbours because you're bored. Let chaos rule again.

For those moaning about not being able to jump bridge across their vast swathe of empty null sec space; that's the whole point! Downsize your sov space so you can move across it to defend it, and let someone else move in next door.

For those moaning about logistics challenges, we managed fine for years without jump bridges and jump freighters (including moving moongoo). Or if it's too much hassle for your alliance to hold half the bloody moons on the map, then don't hold them all - oh wait, maybe that's possibly the point?

How many of you actually remember back to the 2007/2008 era where multiple wars were happening across null sec? Fountain seemed like a million miles from Deklein, and you'd certainly never consider traveling all the way down to catch just for one fight.

Stop crying just because you're ******* lazy.
+1 on top of a like for you Sir. Smile

+2 so , cause I join you in this statement :)
Solecist Project
#971 - 2014-10-01 20:05:12 UTC
I would like to take this opportunity
and ask all those who leave the game to donate their money to the
"Solstice Project character rebuy fund".


It's not *for me* ...
... it's *against everyone else* !


Thank you for your consideration!

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#972 - 2014-10-01 20:05:27 UTC
If you have a cap pilot on the bizarre right now - you need to kill that sale ASAP!!
Josef Djugashvilis
#973 - 2014-10-01 20:05:27 UTC
Balzaamon wrote:
Jump Freighters with 5LY limit? Really?

How someone, who lives in Stain will get to Jita with no docking rights in Catch/Providence???

Simple: he dont get to Jita with 5LY JF.
Oh wait, he can jump to system on route and dont dock, wait to cool down timer on cyno, but wait, theres no cloak on JF...

Also it affects other frontier regions like Period Basis/Feythabolis and many more.

Another knife in the back for smaller alliances without sov, keep it up.


Perhaps new player made regional markets will be developed.

And Jita will become just a local hubSmile

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Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#974 - 2014-10-01 20:05:57 UTC
Has any concern been given to show players what their cooldown/fatigue would be *before* they jump? Perhaps a tooltip on the timer showing the max possible cooldown after a 5LY jump?

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#975 - 2014-10-01 20:06:20 UTC
I have a family and work full time. I do not have time for hours of cooldown.
This change neither helps new players nor will it encourage old ones to stay.
We already have to spend considerable amount of time to search for targets. Getting there in time once some are found will be impossible.

I fear it is a terrible idea.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Tenguboi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#976 - 2014-10-01 20:06:42 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
[

MonkeyBusiness Thiesant wrote:
Tenguboi wrote:

2- You touch Capitals but you dont have the intestines to mess with the CFC jumpbridge network so you dont nerf CFC power Projection


Jump fatigue affects people taking bridges from what I understood.


Yup.

.



Are we talking here about anchroed Jumpbridges?



Also how are you gonna solve fleets and titan jumpbridges will some people be elf tbehind if they jumepd their carrier earlier?
Aebe Amraen
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#977 - 2014-10-01 20:06:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Aebe Amraen
Quote:
We've run simulations for capital ships travelling between arbitrary pairs of systems, and settled on the target movement speed of no less than 3 minutes per lightyear for travel over 20 LY.


Under the proposed system, the optimal strategy for long trips is to wait until your fatigue is under 1 (i.e. 10 minutes left on timer) and then jump, which gives an assymptotic travel speed of 10 minutes per AU--much slower than your 3 minute target (you can cheat a bit on the last jump and make it a bit faster, at the expense of a longer cooldown and much longer fatigue--if you're going to be logging off when you get home, for example)).

As such, I think it would be wise to at least double and perhaps triple the fatigue decay rate.

I also remain concerned about the viability of black ops battleships with this change, and look forward to hearing your plans for those.
Gedalva
#978 - 2014-10-01 20:06:51 UTC
I for one am looking forward to all the nullbears quitting and leaving me all that space to fly through unimpeded!
Igor Nappi
Doomheim
#979 - 2014-10-01 20:06:54 UTC
TheButcherJohn wrote:
Lord Fargo wrote:
CCP cant press the self destruct button fast enough can they? How exactly can new members of any null alliance get to their territory?


By deathcloning of... oh, wait, you can't. Guess 0.0 isn't allowed to be populated.

I did it in a (pre-buff) Executioner with a T1 cloak and MWD. I'm sure the great empires of 0.0 are able to instruct their recruits in the fine art of jumping gates.

Furthermore, I think that links must be removed from the game.
Kat Ayclism
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#980 - 2014-10-01 20:06:58 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
The Cue wrote:
Will warp speeds be adjusted? Capitals warp exceptionally slow as it is.



Probably not, no.


LOLOLOL You do know the exact next patch is when you're going to have to up the warp speeds, right? Capitals are intolerably slow. Heck I'm surprised you haven't bumped the BS ones up yet already.


Quote:
Coreemo wrote:
Also, the whole "fix" to deathcloning is a really bad idea. We need SOME way to quickly deploy to a hot area that requires it.


Why? (Serious question.)


Because these changes already coddle the risk averse- you guys literally use the reasoning of people being scared of someone moving across the entire map to drop. That's being risk averse. (It also rarely happens, and when it does tends to be a very intricately set up thing involving a lot of forethought and planning.)

Quote:

*Every* controversial change hurts the little guy too much. It's good that all the big guys are there to look out for them.

Newsflash- your players actually play the game. Not all of them rushed to the biggest entity and some people are, in fact, actually able to look at the consequences of your changes for all groups without being wrapped up in the "I made this" pride you guys always have when told what is wrong.




As to black ops and your continued bafflement at why they keep being brought up:

Black Ops are a ganking tool, not a fleet combat one. They are lightly tanked, not particularly impressive dps, and essentially the main thing they have going for them is that ability to pop in, gank, and then disappear (cloak or otherwise). They are not something that will stand to most fleets of any kind so their potential for abuse in the areas you're targetting is pretty low. That you guys need this explained is a bit laughable, since you can't even first look at their function and maybe piece it together yourselves.

Not adjusting them leaves them with essentially no niche and will require future adjustments that do exactly what your players are suggesting or even an entire overhaul on them that gives them some other purpose.