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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
Fonac
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#761 - 2014-10-01 19:20:32 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:



Fonac wrote:
You've nerfed rapidly deploying over vast distances to a complete impossibility.


Hopefully, yes.



And i can only agree on that being a _very_ good thing.

I'm just asking what the thought process is being the long cooldowns that is being added? - Is it to make the eve universe bigger, and entities more local?

I'm asking because i dont see the logic in having a cooldown days after a drop on someone/something.
The distances that can now be covered in a fair amount of time is extremely limited. This will effectively make caps defensive ships. This could be a good thing for the small entities that want to live in 0.0 - This is positive step towards that. Since you can no longer respond to aggresion as fast as before. - GOOD change, i love how this could shake up 0.0.

But it still ask the question; Why are "i" as a capital pilot being penalized for a jump i made days ago, possible months?


Regarding the black ops

I use black ops daily, mostly for pve content... It makes for interesting exploration vessels, if used correctly. This is now nerfed to the ground. - I'm confident i will find a way around that, but i'm sure i'm not the only one using the ship class in that regard. It might be to Niché to be considered worth investing developer time into, seeing as it's not what the ships are designed for.

But it wouldn't mind it being part of the part process... Since it's actually very viable at being something else than a pvp boat.


/fonac
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#762 - 2014-10-01 19:20:36 UTC
Eigenvalue wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

I expect a lot more roaming coming into our Eve.


Only extremely wealthy players would consider moving capital ships through gates, and even they wouldn't do it because they will be ritually mocked every time they welp because they jumped into a T2 bubble and had to slow boat for 45 minutes.

A fully fit boot/slowcat only costs like 2.5b which is less than a week of ratting or mission running on a casual schedule. The initial price tag may seem daunting but they are fully insurable t1 ships and every nullsec entity reimburses them for the full price of the hull and required fittings (or they just give you a replacement ship) if you lose it on an op with an approved FC.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn

Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#763 - 2014-10-01 19:20:37 UTC
Also, with the "people did T2 before jump freighters": many t2 ships date only from Red Moon Rising, when they introduced carriers. That is really not a good argument, t2 production as a serious thing instead of an odd niche has always had the ability to transfer goods too and from nullsec in large quantities.
Cr Turist
Arcana Noctis
#764 - 2014-10-01 19:20:44 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Cr Turist wrote:
how about a fixed cool down timer for capital jumps say 5-10 mins. forget this silly 5ly thing and all this other madness your talking about. its quick its easy it makes sense.


To hit our target of being faster to gate-warp than to jump, and our benchmark of 3m/LY for gate-warping caps around, for a 17 LY carrier jump the cooldown would need to be 51 minutes.

Jenn aSide wrote:


Reducing the number of hot drops in a game whose economy depends on ships going boom is not and never can be a good thing. CCP is making a bad move here, it remains to be seen how long after it's implemented for this to sit in with them. I expect 'un-nerfs' within 6 to 12 weeks of this change.


That logic also suggests that giving ships a 10% chance to explode every minute would be a good change. I don't wholly trust that logic.



ok i guess what im saying is your target is absurd. with all the time people have spent getting into these ships i think and most of the people i am speaking to agree 10mins is more than acceptable. most major super cap fights take 4 mids at least 40 mins to go 4 mids seems pritty crazy but better than what u have proposed
Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#765 - 2014-10-01 19:20:57 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Ranamar wrote:
Nobody seems to have commented on this, so...

[quote=Makari Aeron]As it stands, I believe this plan, while interesting is going to kill off T2 production in EVE, especially nullsec. There is no possible way to move large quantities of moongoo easily anymore.


It's going to have a significant impact, to be sure, and that's something we need to keep an eye on. At the same time, though, people built T2 ships and modules before jump freighters existed, so we're somewhat skeptical of the argument that that T2 construction is impossible without JFs.



I remember those times.... when Vagabonds, curses, ishtars, etc cost 500 mil and a T2 cloak was over 100 mil.

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.  He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

Moloney
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#766 - 2014-10-01 19:21:06 UTC
One thing so the change has the actual effect intended.

Please attach the timers to both Pilot and Ship IDs in the database.

If you do not, bigger alliances will just buy up all the jump pilots or train jump only capable pilots to hand off ships at mid points.
TomThe Smurf
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#767 - 2014-10-01 19:21:55 UTC
CCP really does like loosing money dont they? They manage to make a good game worste every patch, and as like half of eve if a single point of this gets implemented it will be the end, they did just find the straw that breaks the camels back.

Casoff the touchy feely alliance. Tranny pics all day from this white woman in a black mans  body

Eigenvalue
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#768 - 2014-10-01 19:21:56 UTC
Mira Meroda wrote:

I am not playing a game to WAIT.


So much this. So so much.

Timers are a flaw in eve, not a feature. They're an unthinking response to an unbalanced structure.

Sov null doesn't need *more* timers for game play ffs.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#769 - 2014-10-01 19:21:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Eigenvalue wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

I expect a lot more roaming coming into our Eve.


Only extremely wealthy players would consider moving capital ships through gates, and even they wouldn't do it because they will be ritually mocked every time they welp because they jumped into a T2 bubble and had to slow boat for 45 minutes.


I DEMAND 1000MN microwarp drives and Capital Micro Jump Drives now! Big smile
True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
#770 - 2014-10-01 19:22:53 UTC
1) Will you then be forced to declare your Jump Cooldown/Fatigue when selling a character on the Bazaar?

2) Are Cyno-Jammers now redundant since hostile can just jump next-door then use the gate to enter your system, making that 1bil a month expense on maintaining the jammer useless?

3) Isn't this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5070934#post5070934 - a simpler, more fun, more functional idea?
Overman
Malum Industria
#771 - 2014-10-01 19:23:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Overman
The worst part of this, is that probably most of EVE agrees that capital projection needed to be fixed and CCP still managed to enrage so many people.

* There's so many ways for this fix to be achieved but, in typical CCP fashion, they decided to use a hammer instead of a surgical tool. You can't and won't fix the problems in EVE in a few piece-meal fixes. You need to take your time on this and really think about it. A token meeting with CSM idiots and a round table in Iceland isn't enough. Eve is organic and CCP loves to advertise it as a sandbox. Well, that sandbox has many variables and dynamics that will be affected here. Many of which are welcome but many are not. However, they needed to be accounted for and weighed appropriately.

* I guess what bothers me is CCP's approach. There are certain things that are not working well in this game. (Cap Projection ofc/null stagnation/Sov Mechanics/Actual utility of Sov/Conflict Drivers/Supers/)... I believe these are all interwoven and need to be addressed together.

* I don't think a half-assed dev blog proceeded by a meeting or two the month before adequately shows me, as a CCP customer, that you've put the proper thought, testing, and brainstorming into this that I would expect from a company i'm investing in. That's disheartening and I think the rough nature of this blog is where much of the animosity from the user base stems from. Various departments need to scour ideas and fixes and CCP needs to spends months trying to understand how these are going to fit together for a further of EVE online while still intriguing existing and new customers. Not only do these departments need to have a variety of alternatives available to balance their area, but these need to be discussed and gone over en mass BEFORE sweeping changes are implemented.

* I do think some of the changes can be worked. A Jump timer + "fatigue" of SOME sort can work, but does CCP really believe this current mechanism is the best choice? Have a 3 minute timer, then a 6 minute timer for two successive jumps if jumped again within 30 minutes, then a 10 minute timer and it at 10 minutes for every subsequent jump thereafter. You could implement fatigue which reduces the efficacy of weapon systems. In other words, You'll be able to still jump long distances and technically move across EVE if you wait out your timers, but the fatigue can implement a negative weapons bonus to negate your ability to use drones/defensive mods/doomsdays/gunnery etc. You can have a base to where after 4 consecutive jumps, you can't use weapon systems/defensive systems for 3 hours or so. The negative weapons bonus would affect your skills irrespective of whether you're still in a carrier or not. A jump timer coupled with a fatigue that stacks negative weapon bonuses, you neuter your opportunity to dogpile into fights(cause you'll be useless), you significantly reduce the ability to jump across EVE with the timer alone, but you'll still leave opportunity for hot drops/logistics. This would permit logistic capitals to be use effectively, but coupled with death clones, would nullify the ability of alliances to dogpile into large fights multiple regions away WITHOUT already having jump clones/ships or an alt in place in that area.

Note: I spent 5 minutes thinking up a more sound alternative that would probably infuriate many less people.


* PS: Don't let capitals go through gates. FFS that just sounds stupid. It will look stupid. it's antithetical to capitals and how we've all known them. I get that changes are necessary, but if you're going to keep some form of jump, make it a necessary and not optional. There are already discussions of nano-nig gangs and its going to be stupid.
Dread Nanana
Doomheim
#772 - 2014-10-01 19:23:23 UTC
Nys Cron wrote:
As lowsec corp it will be A LOT harder to get supplies, especially for small corps that can not escort their Freighters into lowsec.


I didn't know that low-sec logistics were so strained that you are out of 5LY range for most of it!

It's not like deep-space transports are now boosted to carry well over 60k m3.

Yes, terrible news for low sec! Shocked
Edgar Strangelove
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#773 - 2014-10-01 19:23:26 UTC
Well, this explains a few things about the jump spawn distance change in w-space.
Theodoric Darkwind
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#774 - 2014-10-01 19:23:37 UTC
This is probably the stupidest and most short-sighted change in the history of EVE. This is worse than Dominion Sov, this is worse than Incarna/Monaclegate.

We agree that some type of jump CD needed to be added, but this is soo knee-jerk that it literally makes it impossible to live in much of nullsec and makes capital ships soo painful to use that those of us with them will just unsub and play better games.

Especially given that you want to put in these nerfs but leave dominion sov intact for an indeterminate amount of time, which will only make the current stagnation worse. You should fix sov first before deciding to completely neuter capitals and travel in sov.

IMHO the implementation you have applied to JFs/Rorqs is actually quite reasonable, maybe a slightly longer version of this for combat caps (maybe a 10-15min max jump CD), and leaving range alone for the time being. Then work on fixing sov before any other changes.
R3DRUM
Playboy Enterprises
Dark Taboo
#775 - 2014-10-01 19:23:58 UTC  |  Edited by: R3DRUM
Moloney wrote:
One thing so the change has the actual effect intended.

Please attach the timers to both Pilot and Ship IDs in the database.

If you do not, bigger alliances will just buy up all the jump pilots or train jump only capable pilots to hand off ships at mid points.
im making a trial account when i get home his sole purpose will be to train to sit in caps then move to my alt account get fatigue and move my caps around from null to low then he can sit till i use caps again i normally use sub caps so this will work. I only want 2 active accounts no need for 3
Aeromanthia
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#776 - 2014-10-01 19:24:06 UTC
Coming from the view of a WH occupier rather than a null sec member, this change is still rather worrying. Good routes to bring in a capital to our hole occurs once or twice a week on average. When a hole opens up, we have a relatively short window to get everything in place to move it in, and no outside infrastructure to assist in moving it.

Currently the average number of jumps to move a capital to wherever the entrance is seems to be about 3 max range jumps; sometimes less, sometimes more. With these changes, it appears 15 LY will be about the peak jump distance, a little over 1 current jump. Usable entrance windows are going to be much rarer under these conditions, and almost always taking an entire day largely consisting of just sitting in a station worrying if the WH will collapse while you're waiting out the timer.
Zen Guerrilla
CTRL-Q
Ushra'Khan
#777 - 2014-10-01 19:24:39 UTC
This is awesome.

What a shame people can't adapt and instead just whine and complain.

Change is good. It's a broken system and you all know it. Sometimes change hurts.


Time to dust off the lowsec caps. \o/

pew pew

KuroVolt
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#778 - 2014-10-01 19:25:06 UTC
Good day, I have come to harvest your sweet, precious tears so that I may sell them to a shaman later on.



Now gib meh.

BoBwins Law: As a discussion/war between two large nullsec entities grows longer, the probability of one comparing the other to BoB aproaches near certainty.

Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#779 - 2014-10-01 19:25:46 UTC
Reported. We already have a thread for these kinds of things.

So, more Alts Online. Don't have six accounts to make living in null-sec bearable? GTFO. Fantastic.

I only have a single account. I've only ever had a single account. If, after these changes, I cannot literally keep up with those who have more, then I won't even have that.
Bolur Freir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#780 - 2014-10-01 19:25:47 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
These changes would make EVE Online a game with some actual strategic gameplay, which is awesome.

It seems that many posters here fail to see that jump nerf does exactly what nullsec needs- promoting local occupancy and local fights.

I'm moving to null <3 Finally, after all these years it sounds interesting!



It entrenches the current occupants and makes invading someone's space next to impossible since they can have their forces holed up in a region that the invader could barely touch without having massive penalties on their forces.