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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Bort Malice
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#621 - 2014-10-01 18:53:34 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
I would like to remind to all the 0.0 ragers -

Player built Stargates, going from 1 end of your territory to the other in 1 jump!


Yeah my small corp will surely be able to build one of these in Low sec to help ship my bridged Blockade Runners with null mins back into high.

Not to mention one in the SovSystem Im mining in.

Yeah, thats likely.
Igor Saizew
Mining Industry Exile Foundation
Synergy of Steel
#622 - 2014-10-01 18:53:51 UTC
Dear CCP,

Play your game alone. When it becomes free to play, maybe i come back because auf the nice memorries.

CU
Igor
Vladimir Ramanov
Cobalt Technologies
#623 - 2014-10-01 18:54:19 UTC
Ocih wrote:
BrutalButFair wrote:
A titan is capital right? hows a 15k sig ship going to fit through a 5k sig stargate?Roll



http://youtu.be/OvgyXKDXdZY?t=45s?


Genius.
Levina Windstar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#624 - 2014-10-01 18:54:42 UTC
Wormholes send their regards.

"I can make billions using my mouth ...

... and sometimes when I talk, too" --- Solecist Project
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#625 - 2014-10-01 18:54:47 UTC
Sentinel Eeex wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Retar Aveymone wrote:
The abolition of podjumping makes it massively difficult for our newbies to join us in Deklein. Has any thought been put into that?


Yes, but it's a thing we're still not happy with the state of. We're going to discuss this specific issue more tomorrow, with the aim of coming up with a reasonable solution that deals with the newbie use case without opening the door to more general problems. Stay tuned for more info.


I really know very little about sov mechanics, but if I take your station and don't revoke your clone contracts (assuming that's possible), how exactly are you going to leave that station?


...good point. Adding to the to-look-at list!

TerminalSamurai Sunji wrote:
I'm just curious, if the plan is to reduce power projection, and the ship is what's being limited in jump range, why is the timer being attached to the pilot and not the ship? IE if a titan gets jumped, put the 'fatigue' timer on the actual ship. I'm not suggesting this as a fix, just that attaching a 'jump fatigue' to a character doesn't make much sense to me, where as I could understand a ships drives having to 'cool down' before re using them.

Can the current game mechanics allow a timer to be attached to a ship?


Reasoning here is that in most cases, pilots are a bigger bottleneck than ships - building a carrier chain to move your cap pilots around is simpler and more cost-effective than building an alt chain to move your carrier around. We could put a timer on both, but we'd rather keep it simple (plus it's really hard to persist things on ships that get repackaged).

As to the "fatigue" thing, there should be some more story coming out about this, but the word "fatigue" should give a pointer as to how we're going to explain it!

Obsidian Hawk wrote:
How about this CCP Greyscale

Change the decay from 0.1 to 0.25. That is still a reasonable rate and will still keep capitals roaming slowly.

Rather than a 5 day cool down timer on some it will change it to about 2 days. Which is still a big hit to capital jumping...... But not as severe.

Dont go full blown harsh, do more like a kick to the shins and stepping on feet.


Tuning the decay is definitely something we're open to.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#626 - 2014-10-01 18:54:51 UTC
Good stuff. Don't fold.

I think you need to add a new tutorial for all these null folk. It should describe "gates" and show them how to jump through one.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#627 - 2014-10-01 18:54:57 UTC
Nost of the changes appear to be ok.

Except the one.

JB fatigue ? This will kill content for small to medium fleets, subcaps. Not good.

COO - Bene Gesserit Chapterhouse  CEO - Sanctuary Pact Alliance
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#628 - 2014-10-01 18:55:03 UTC
One change that I would like to advocate for us small guys in FW. When we loose systems we use capitals to move our fitted ships out en masse. This change will limit the amount of ships we are willing to keep in the war zone if we aren't able to move a good portion out in a timely manner.

Have you considered increasing the capacity of the ship array on capitals?
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#629 - 2014-10-01 18:55:09 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
AttentionWAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT!!!!Attention






What about player built stargates????

Did all of 0.0 forget about this change coming?


CCP what about the player built stargates that are coming in conjunction with the capital change?!?!?


Sure - and when they arrive in 20-who-the-fck-knows all the cap pilots will have unsubbed.
Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#630 - 2014-10-01 18:55:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Taram Caldar
If anyone thinks this will really limit the veteran heavy alliances like PL/BL from hot dropping them they're delusional. These are pilots who already have multiple cap accounts. There is nothing stopping the large powerblocks from simply parking capital alts at strategic locations and just use the right alt for the right area. Or parking caps in multiple areas along with a jump clone in each and voila... they can instantly show up anywhere. Just means a bit more strategic placement of spare ships.

All this does is hurt small/young entities.


And the hit to deep 0.0 entities is just crazy... Folks living in places like Omist, Feythabolis, Paragon Soul, Drone Regions, etc are going to have 10+ jumps just to get to empire for logistics. Jump Freighters and Rorquals should be exempt from the range changes. This will severely hurt logistics, especially for folks living in deep 0.0, otherwise.

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.  He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
Edmond Lewis
Of Tears and ISK
ISK.Net
#631 - 2014-10-01 18:55:37 UTC
if you wanted people to not use capitals, just remove them from the game, or did you just buy cloud imperium and this suicide is your way of securing your investment
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#632 - 2014-10-01 18:56:12 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
congrats, you Just 'Malcanis Law'd' null sec and made things worse because who can afford to but new characters and PLEX for multiple character training, new guys or old players?


Caps are not ships newbies should take any interest in, I don't see Malcanis Law to apply here.

Invalid signature format
Xordan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#633 - 2014-10-01 18:56:36 UTC
just a little off topic...

what the current record for posts in a 24 hour period on one post.

if this doesn't break all records cause of the stupidity of these changes...
Pfaeron
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#634 - 2014-10-01 18:56:39 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Preface: this is a big change. Yes, the way you play now is, as it relates to things touched by these changes and to varying degrees, no longer going to be viable. If that wasn't the case, these changes wouldn't be worth making in the first place.

This isn't a business-as-usual tuning pass, this is redefining what jump drives are *for* in this game.

Literally Space Moses wrote:
Have you considered the rather long distances between regions? I haven't actually checked the numbers, but I can imagine some regions being nigh impossible to assault, just because no capital ships can actually jump far enough to reach them, or can only reach one or two systems.

e: can caps even reach the drone regions via jump drives after this change?


Yes, we have. The 5 LY range was chosen after looking at gaps between regions. 5 allows you to cross many of them. The larger gaps, such as some of the drone region jumps, were never going to be crossable with any of the range of ranges we'd be comfortable with. In some cases yes, this will lead to gate bottlenecks for capitals, and the geography of these areas will become very significant, yes.

(BRT-OP to C-4D0W is 2.52 LY)


The drone regions are already very far from lowsec in comparison to other regions. For example getting a dreadnought/jump freighter from lowec to drone regions means you only have a handful of systems to select from for your route. That's already limiting in comparison to other regions. We know that its this way, its always been this way, its just a characteristic of the drone regions.

So with the new ly change proposal, have you considered remapping the drone regions in consideration of this max-ly change, such that after the max-ly jump change, a similar set of systems are still within reach as they are now. No additional bonuses nor penalties beyond the intended jump travel rate that you intended.

I would think remapping change would achieve your result of reducing the speed of jump travel without the hugely penalizing effect of cutting off drone regions entirely... and still maintaining the characteristic of drone regions that if you want to jump to it, you only have a few systems to choose from.
Ian Praetorius
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#635 - 2014-10-01 18:57:07 UTC
When will Jump Fatigue Reduction Certificates be made available in NES and how much will they cost?

Or will this feature be rolled into the PLEX redemption system?
Josef Djugashvilis
#636 - 2014-10-01 18:57:16 UTC
John McCreedy wrote:
If you want people to move back to null sec and improve the life of people who dwell there, nerfing logistics is not the way to go about it. Jump-based travel is not exclusive to the large alliances with monstrous Capital and Super Capital fleets. Rather, it's used primarily as a logistics tool by Jump Freighters for seeding markets locally so that we don't have to go to market hubs where every Tom, Richard and Harry who has declared war on us is sitting in wait.

Jump Fatigue will do nothing to stop Super Cap blobbing or Capital Hot Dropping because any commander worth his salt is going to factor it in to their pre-engagement planning. People will just base those fleets nearer to the source in order to avoid Jump Fatigue. If it takes a bit longer to move sub-Cap fleets through multiple Titan bridges fleets will either jump from a closer distance or fleets will form up earlier to compensate for Jump Fatigue. You achieve nothing by doing this other than to annoy the very people who live there.

All this will achieve will be to further drive people from null sec and back to Empire where you can find more entertaining PvP, make more ISK and have easier logistics. At the very least I would suggest that Jump Freighters are given a role bonus of -100% Jump Fatigue and are exempt from the Jump Range nerf. Eve will still feel bigger than it does now without damaging null sec economies with ill thought-out nerfs to logistics.


I rather suspect that the first paragraph of your post may well be seen by CCP (and others) as an argument in favour of the proposed changes.

This is not a signature.
Hendrick Tallardar
Doomheim
#637 - 2014-10-01 18:57:17 UTC
CCP,

You state that

Quote:
Black Ops ships will have their range unchanged, but will otherwise get all the described changes. This also keeps the range of their jump portals unchanged. We don’t feel that Black Ops range needs adjustment right now.


Which in turn implies that a Black Ops ship will have the same factor for the cool down timer for a capital ship. While I agree with the sentiment that a cool down timer for all jump capable ships is acceptable (since you plan to implement it), the ratio is problemeatic.

Without getting too ~lore~ heavy (because seriously **** that ****), a Blops are more or less battleship class ships but with the neat jump portal feature. As a result, Blops ships are the size of a battleship, which is a fraction of the site of the capital. Why does the same length of cool down apply to the Black Ops ship that is applied to the Capital ship?

Shouldn't the Black Ops ship receive a, slightly, shorter cool down time & factor (I don't know the right ~math word~)?

Let's use something simple because, frankly, I'm dumb when it comes to math.

For the sake of this example let's use the currently proposed system and look at the cool down. Capitals and Blops ships share the same "1 + LY" fatigue. So for example, a Blops & Capital moving 4.85 LY (post change implementation) both have a cool down of 1 + 4.85, or 5 minutes 51 seconds.

They're two different sizes, two different masses and so forth. Why can't the BLOPs have a factor of say "0.75 + LY" as opposed to "1 + LY" that the capital ships receive?

In the provided example the jump that takes 4.85 LY would take the BLOPs ship 5 minutes 36 seconds to be able to jump out of system. This allows for the BLOPs ship to do it's typical "get in, get out" strategy that has become a staple of the intended use for the class, while also applying the proposed cool down timer changes.

Now, I'm not a math wiz and openly admit I'm probably missing something but figured I would ask.
Fonac
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#638 - 2014-10-01 18:57:25 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Chinicata Shihari wrote:
I know you wouldn't do this but just to show the facts

Spreadsheets are good for the mind https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IjH2JyeTd0suTC43REymnoiD2TF70HxbkRWqNtJjqds/edit#gid=0

yes that is 2.43 millennium.


sooo tl;dr: in this blog, CCP doesn't understand exponential growth?


The maths here are a fundamental part of the design.



X ATM092 wrote:
It is theoretically possible to compound the fatigue up into years of jump delay with fewer than a dozen actual jumps, simply by not allowing the fatigue to decay between each early jump but rather jumping as soon as possible. After the first few days of decay make little difference because the decay is linear and the increase in fatigue is multiplicative. If you wanted to you could completely incapacitate a character with this, for example selling a titan toon on the bazaar which is disallowed from jumping for years.

Your decay formula needs to be modified to reduce a percentage of the total fatigue per hour, rather than a fixed amount.

Edit: I calculated 6VDT to VFK by Aeon to take a little over 7 months if you jumped as soon as possible each time (obviously it would take less time if you waited for the fatigue to decay to 0 after each first jump).


Reducing fatigue multiplicatively as a general rule works in the wrong direction for what we want - it means high fatigue decays faster than low fatigue, whereas if anything we want the opposite. We may need to introduce some kind of "overtime" decay past a certain point though, to keep it under control.


I think you really need to think of the complications, of suddenly having a pilot that can't jump with a carrier for 1 month(or more)
You've nerfed rapidly deploying over vast distances to a complete impossibility.

Why make this rammification hit you days later?
Arun Tadaruwa
Hotbirds
#639 - 2014-10-01 18:57:43 UTC
VauXurne wrote:
Arun Tadaruwa wrote:
VauXurne wrote:
So cynojammers are nerfed too? Now you can just jump your caps through the gate.


Bubble the gates you silly thing.
Or use tacklers.

If someone manages to surprise you with a stargate-jumped carrier then you're being **** at eve.


Youre an idiot. That is all.


Yeah yeah big boy, show me where CCP touched you.

Alt posting because yes.
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited
#640 - 2014-10-01 18:57:58 UTC
Question regarding supers.

Are there plans to make them dockable or are you only looking to give them the ability to go through gates. Will Chribba, Dark and I be un-employed in the near future?Lol

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