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POSes: I am a small portion of the community

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Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#2921 - 2014-08-31 05:14:31 UTC
Cecilia Smunt wrote:
POS love bump, and an acknowledgement of more good points both in favor of and against the way CCP has dealt with the POS issue so far.
Understandably, due to the nature of the legacy coding and the lack of anyone who originally wrote it still being accessible/working for CCP, there will be some delays and some cautionary steps forward so as not to totally break something that does at least "work", however those factors in and of themselves do not lessen the haste that we as players feel should be implemented in fixing/replacing them.

o/
Celly Smunt





Because it's time for another POS love bump. Even if I end up being the only one bumping this on the regular (I don't think it'll happen) it's gonna get a bump.

Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!

POS fix dated back to 2006!
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#2922 - 2014-09-17 04:10:55 UTC
Balder Verdandi wrote:
Cecilia Smunt wrote:
POS love bump, and an acknowledgement of more good points both in favor of and against the way CCP has dealt with the POS issue so far.
Understandably, due to the nature of the legacy coding and the lack of anyone who originally wrote it still being accessible/working for CCP, there will be some delays and some cautionary steps forward so as not to totally break something that does at least "work", however those factors in and of themselves do not lessen the haste that we as players feel should be implemented in fixing/replacing them.

o/
Celly Smunt





Because it's time for another POS love bump. Even if I end up being the only one bumping this on the regular (I don't think it'll happen) it's gonna get a bump.




Agreed... we cannot let this thread die for no good reason...

o/
Celly

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#2923 - 2014-09-21 12:03:10 UTC
I just wanted to drop in and say:

Really, don't worry about this being forgotten about Smile

And can people let a CSM member they 'trust' know what they use POS for, along with things like a breakdown of how you would fit a POS for a particular purpose, and what kind of numbers you have of them?


For example: You might have a POS at a moon, that has a moon miner in it. But the actual purpose of the POS is for supercap storage, or maybe staging. It's something that's hard to determine purely from the database, and could lead to skewed numbers.

(We'll pass it on to CCP. Pick a CSM member that you don't think will break your opsec.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#2924 - 2014-09-22 11:25:23 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
I just wanted to drop in and say:

Really, don't worry about this being forgotten about Smile

And can people let a CSM member they 'trust' know what they use POS for, along with things like a breakdown of how you would fit a POS for a particular purpose, and what kind of numbers you have of them?


For example: You might have a POS at a moon, that has a moon miner in it. But the actual purpose of the POS is for supercap storage, or maybe staging. It's something that's hard to determine purely from the database, and could lead to skewed numbers.

(We'll pass it on to CCP. Pick a CSM member that you don't think will break your opsec.



Here's the thing .... I wouldn't mind telling a CSM, or CCP for that matter, what I'm doing with a POS so long as I could anonymously. It's not difficult for CCP to find out which corps have POS's since they need to respawn them from server data after DT.

One could simply parse the info, find out which corps have POS's, send them a link for a survey to anonymously provide the information and they would know.

It could be as simple as how many POS's do you have, do you mine, do you provide mining boosts, are you doing invention/research, are you making ammo or ships, do you have a cyno beacon ..... I mean honestly most of this information could be had easily since is does need to respawn, right?

I don't see why it's so difficult for the brain trust @ CCP to figure most of this out.




Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!

POS fix dated back to 2006!
Demyen
Araata-Teiva Kamloss
#2925 - 2014-09-22 19:30:59 UTC
Balder Verdandi wrote:

Here's the thing .... I wouldn't mind telling a CSM, or CCP for that matter, what I'm doing with a POS so long as I could anonymously. It's not difficult for CCP to find out which corps have POS's since they need to respawn them from server data after DT.

One could simply parse the info, find out which corps have POS's, send them a link for a survey to anonymously provide the information and they would know.

It could be as simple as how many POS's do you have, do you mine, do you provide mining boosts, are you doing invention/research, are you making ammo or ships, do you have a cyno beacon ..... I mean honestly most of this information could be had easily since is does need to respawn, right?

I don't see why it's so difficult for the brain trust @ CCP to figure most of this out.





Steve Ronuken wrote:

It's something that's hard to determine purely from the database, and could lead to skewed numbers.
Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#2926 - 2014-09-23 05:43:27 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:

It's something that's hard to determine purely from the database, and could lead to skewed numbers.




Steve,

To be fair it's a poor excuse CCP is using here. Please don't drink the Kool-Aid.

Moon mining towers have silos/moon goo mining gear/storage (honestly if you have an R rated moon, you're mining it), cyno beacon towers of course will have a cyno beacon, if you're building ships you'll have a CSAA, if you're making ammo you'll have an assembly array, if you're researching BPO's you're going to have labs.

It doesn't take much to figure out what's going on just by looking at a tower. Why is this so difficult for CCP to grasp?

Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!

POS fix dated back to 2006!
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#2927 - 2014-09-23 11:47:54 UTC
Balder Verdandi wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:

It's something that's hard to determine purely from the database, and could lead to skewed numbers.




Steve,

To be fair it's a poor excuse CCP is using here. Please don't drink the Kool-Aid.

Moon mining towers have silos/moon goo mining gear/storage (honestly if you have an R rated moon, you're mining it), cyno beacon towers of course will have a cyno beacon, if you're building ships you'll have a CSAA, if you're making ammo you'll have an assembly array, if you're researching BPO's you're going to have labs.

It doesn't take much to figure out what's going on just by looking at a tower. Why is this so difficult for CCP to grasp?



So, how do you determine the difference between a POS used primarily for super cap storage, or staging, which happens to have a moon mining array to help defray costs, from an POS which is there just to mine?

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#2928 - 2014-09-23 13:03:33 UTC
Two possibilities here:

  • The super cap warps off (I wouldn't do this, but ....) and the server would need to keep track of where its warped to so that when you log in, it knows where to spawn.

  • You have a CSMA, you'd store it there. Ideally, the fact that you have a CSMA would mean you're storing something big.




    • Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!

    POS fix dated back to 2006!
    Celly S
    Neutin Local LLC
    #2929 - 2014-09-29 04:26:25 UTC
    Steve Ronuken wrote:
    I just wanted to drop in and say:

    Really, don't worry about this being forgotten about Smile

    And can people let a CSM member they 'trust' know what they use POS for, along with things like a breakdown of how you would fit a POS for a particular purpose, and what kind of numbers you have of them?

    (We'll pass it on to CCP. Pick a CSM member that you don't think will break your opsec.


    Thanks for the time to let us know...

    Are you guys wanting this so that you can figure out what tiers of the new POSes there should be? or just usage stats from a player perspective instead of simple numbers with no point of view?


    Are the discussions still going on in the realm of "Modular" posses?

    and Briefly:

    If built in the form of a mini-outpost, where the labs/assembly arrays/ect can be "attached" to the base unit wouldn't having PG and CPU and even "connector" upgrades to the base unit be better than having different sized units?
    Faction versions of them would of course start out with better Bonuses/PG/CPU/Connectors based on their respective races than the base units

    This would negate the need to know what players are using them for mostly because the ability to add an upgrade to the POS would make most poses fit most playstyles if upgraded to do so.

    As stated in another post, if there is a CSMA there to begin with, it could safely be assumed (I hate that term though) that at some point there's going to be something big in there, or a whole lot of little ships, so the
    Module" for ship storage could be discernible in some manner based on color, or shape so that a person could visually tell which one it is.
    Same with other Modules as well.

    of course, I have lots of ideas LOL, but I'll just throw those out there for starters.

    thanks again
    o/
    Celly Smunt

    Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
    Balder Verdandi
    Wormhole Sterilization Crew
    #2930 - 2014-09-29 05:47:39 UTC
    Celly S wrote:
    Steve Ronuken wrote:
    I just wanted to drop in and say:

    Really, don't worry about this being forgotten about Smile

    And can people let a CSM member they 'trust' know what they use POS for, along with things like a breakdown of how you would fit a POS for a particular purpose, and what kind of numbers you have of them?

    (We'll pass it on to CCP. Pick a CSM member that you don't think will break your opsec.


    Thanks for the time to let us know...

    Are you guys wanting this so that you can figure out what tiers of the new POSes there should be? or just usage stats from a player perspective instead of simple numbers with no point of view?


    Are the discussions still going on in the realm of "Modular" posses?

    and Briefly:

    If built in the form of a mini-outpost, where the labs/assembly arrays/ect can be "attached" to the base unit wouldn't having PG and CPU and even "connector" upgrades to the base unit be better than having different sized units?
    Faction versions of them would of course start out with better Bonuses/PG/CPU/Connectors based on their respective races than the base units

    This would negate the need to know what players are using them for mostly because the ability to add an upgrade to the POS would make most poses fit most playstyles if upgraded to do so.

    As stated in another post, if there is a CSMA there to begin with, it could safely be assumed (I hate that term though) that at some point there's going to be something big in there, or a whole lot of little ships, so the
    Module" for ship storage could be discernible in some manner based on color, or shape so that a person could visually tell which one it is.
    Same with other Modules as well.

    of course, I have lots of ideas LOL, but I'll just throw those out there for starters.

    thanks again
    o/
    Celly Smunt




    I like where this is going, and I'd like to expand the idea.

    If we continue with the idea of a modular POS/mini-outpost, why not get rid of the CPU/PG/connector upgrades altogether?

    CCP has been reducing the "out of game grey matter requirements" for the game (the UI, the industry changes, etc.) to make it easier for the newer player to really get a grasp of the game and not lose so many "truly new" players. This is a huge issue, and I can understand why.

    It makes sense to switch to modular POS'es/mini-outposts, this way we're not trying to keep track of racial small/medium/large towers, then small/medium/large faction towers, the requirements of each, and what can/cannot be attached.

    If we switch to modular POS'es/mini-outposts, you could have a limited number of attachment points (labs, refinery, manufacturing, silos/moon mining, etc.) and if you need more attachment points, you would upgrade it just like you would a regular outpost.


    Thoughts?

    Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!

    POS fix dated back to 2006!
    Celly S
    Neutin Local LLC
    #2931 - 2014-09-29 11:48:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Celly S
    Balder Verdandi wrote:
    I like where this is going, and I'd like to expand the idea.

    If we continue with the idea of a modular POS/mini-outpost, why not get rid of the CPU/PG/connector upgrades altogether?

    CCP has been reducing the "out of game grey matter requirements" for the game (the UI, the industry changes, etc.) to make it easier for the newer player to really get a grasp of the game and not lose so many "truly new" players. This is a huge issue, and I can understand why.

    It makes sense to switch to modular POS'es/mini-outposts, this way we're not trying to keep track of racial small/medium/large towers, then small/medium/large faction towers, the requirements of each, and what can/cannot be attached.

    If we switch to modular POS'es/mini-outposts, you could have a limited number of attachment points (labs, refinery, manufacturing, silos/moon mining, etc.) and if you need more attachment points, you would upgrade it just like you would a regular outpost.


    Thoughts?




    I have to go to work, so I'll edit this reply when I get home :)

    ok, I'm back....

    I was thinking along the lines of the current structures as each one has a PG and CPU requirement that the POS must have free in order to put the structure online, by being able to upgrade the base unit's level (possibly even in a manner similar to the command center upgrades) CCP could still keep expandability available (at some price) while not needing to bother with the whole offline/unanchor then put a better POS back down and start the whole process again.

    hours of wasted time tearing down and redeploying just to gain more functionality, by having to upgrade the unit, you meet the requirements of gain + loss in that what is gained in ease and expandability is traded off for increased costs for expansion modules or upgrades to the system that would end up being comparable to the current costs.

    probably not as clear as I'd like it to be and tbh my brain is fairly fried today, but I hope that makes sense.

    o/
    Celly

    Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
    Balder Verdandi
    Wormhole Sterilization Crew
    #2932 - 2014-09-30 07:35:10 UTC
    I understand what you're saying, but I think for the sake of simplicity if we have a modular POS, aka mini-outpost, act just like a real outpost we reduce the need for all this stuff. I think that's the ultimate goal here for CCP; to reduce the amount of difficulty and requirements in out of game research to understand how it works, and then apply it in game.


    We treat the mini-outpost just like the full size ones in null, where a racial benefit is applied and a lot of what's learned can be used later for the full blown outpost:

  • Amarr for manufacturing

  • Caldari for research/invention

  • Gallente for moon mining/silo storage
    • (It's biggest upgrade are corporate offices and this won't be used for a mini-outpost so we switch it to something useful)

  • Minmatar for refining



    • Maintain the requirement for starbase charters.

    Apply the requirements to construct a mini-outpost similar to a full sized version:


    • Mechanics V
    • Anchoring V
    • Industry V

  • Outpost Construction I - or make this a Mini-Outpost Construction I and a requirement for Outpost Construction.


    • Platform Upgrades - make these Mini-Platform Upgrades and requirements would be one tenth of what is needed for the full sized versions (Foundation, Pedestal, Monument Platform Upgrades).


    Keep the ability to build a Dickstar, especially for WH'ers.


    Eliminate or reduce the delay for activation, deactivation, and anchoring.




    Just a side thought ....

    WH attributes (armor, shield, etc.) could possibly effect the mini-outpost.


    Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!

    POS fix dated back to 2006!
    Celly S
    Neutin Local LLC
    #2933 - 2014-10-03 01:38:06 UTC
    well, the jump range changes thread has now surpassed this one in page numbers...
    I really wish CCP would fix POSes before delving deeper into new crap...

    :(

    Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
    Easthir Ravin
    Easy Co.
    #2934 - 2014-10-03 10:23:57 UTC
    I would love to see POS's fixed and they will have to be, the jump nerf will kill small corp POS operations in Null. Well done CCP Fozzie and crew.

    IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"
    Balder Verdandi
    Wormhole Sterilization Crew
    #2935 - 2014-10-03 14:20:20 UTC
    Easthir Ravin wrote:
    I would love to see POS's fixed and they will have to be, the jump nerf will kill small corp POS operations in Null. Well done CCP Fozzie and crew.



    I think it's really fair to say CCP doesn't know how it's own game is being played.

    I also think it's time to sell my toons and walk away from this game.



    This is ridiculous.

    Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!

    POS fix dated back to 2006!
    Celly S
    Neutin Local LLC
    #2936 - 2014-10-03 16:50:48 UTC
    Balder Verdandi wrote:
    Easthir Ravin wrote:
    I would love to see POS's fixed and they will have to be, the jump nerf will kill small corp POS operations in Null. Well done CCP Fozzie and crew.



    I think it's really fair to say CCP doesn't know how it's own game is being played.

    I also think it's time to sell my toons and walk away from this game.



    This is ridiculous.



    I can haz ur stuffs? *wink*

    don't go, we will adapt as we always do, besides my friends in game are worth staying for if nothing else, I'll just end up with a different play-style if forced to.

    o/
    Celly

    Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
    Balder Verdandi
    Wormhole Sterilization Crew
    #2937 - 2014-10-04 10:47:31 UTC
    I'd unsubscribe for a bit if I need to, but even with CCP driving this bus over a cliff and into a volcano ..... I'd stick around.

    The sad part is this just reinforces the idea that CCP doesn't know how their game is played and have no way to find out.


    What surprises me the most is they mess with capitals and add jump timers ..... but can't fix the POS issues.

    Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!

    POS fix dated back to 2006!
    Celly S
    Neutin Local LLC
    #2938 - 2014-10-09 02:45:01 UTC
    Balder Verdandi wrote:
    What surprises me the most is they mess with capitals and add jump timers ..... but can't fix the POS issues.



    Amazing isn't it?

    Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
    Balder Verdandi
    Wormhole Sterilization Crew
    #2939 - 2014-10-09 03:37:53 UTC
    Celly S wrote:
    Balder Verdandi wrote:
    What surprises me the most is they mess with capitals and add jump timers ..... but can't fix the POS issues.



    Amazing isn't it?




    "Working As Intended™"


    Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!

    POS fix dated back to 2006!
    Balder Verdandi
    Wormhole Sterilization Crew
    #2940 - 2014-10-13 16:56:58 UTC
    Bump to keep it on top, with all the other stuff going on we don't need to lose track of this.

    Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!

    POS fix dated back to 2006!