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CSM meets CCP Senior Producer Zulu about your concerns

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Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#321 - 2011-09-12 14:59:15 UTC
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
lotta stuff...

They'll provide explanations and justifications, but admission of failure? Rarely...

Now THERE is some scary CSM insight. ...to think my favorite game is being by Chevrolet Motors... I hope Iceland has a "too big to fail" policy in their country too... Sad

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
#322 - 2011-09-12 15:04:58 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
lotta stuff...

They'll provide explanations and justifications, but admission of failure? Rarely...

Now THERE is some scary CSM insight. ...to think my favorite game is being by Chevrolet Motors... I hope Iceland has a "too big to fail" policy in their country too... Sad


Sorry, I mistyped my comment, I added "public" in "public admission of failure".

They'll admit to us they f..ked up allright, but doing so in public is different. (Hey, who likes that).

Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7
Nonnori Ikkala
Love for You
#323 - 2011-09-12 15:25:53 UTC
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
That scheme stopped repeating itself for "micro" things (feature details) somewhere during CSM 3, now let's hope they evolve the same way for macro things.

Good to know change in CCP's attitude isn't impossible. Any particularly salient examples for those of us not around a few years ago?
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#324 - 2011-09-12 15:36:45 UTC
Two step wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Trying to read through this thread, I can't tell if you met with Zulu for the follow up meeting or not.

If you do meet with him and he tells you how many new devs will be assigned to FIS please post it in a new thread. I would be interested in the numbers of devs assigned to the different aspects. He posted some numbers in 7/2010 and we can see how the game became stagnant. I want to see how these numbers changed or when they are going to change.

If you meet with him and he won't give you the specific numbers devs of assigned to each aspect of FIS (or tells you but you are supposed to keep it a secret from the players, via nds) then don't bother.

If we can't hear how many new devs are going to be assigned to FIS then we can safely assume eve will continue to stagnate.



The follow up meeting will be sometime this week, we haven't set a date/time yet.

The numbers haven't changed all that much from his past dev blog, which is the main reason we have been going to the media and met with Zulu.



Thanks for the response. I did see this came up in the minutes from your first summit. It didn't take allot of space in the minutes, but I am glad CSM6 recognizes it as crucial.

Thanks for your continued efforts on this.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Azelor Delaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#325 - 2011-09-12 16:08:01 UTC
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
I'm informing you of a process in place, not of CCP saying "we'll look at it somewhere down the line". One process that should generate progress or at least an answer because they're looking at it now...

Before you decry the results of that process to be meaningless, why don't you wait for the result to come out?

Whether that process produces the necessary outcome or not, I'll be posting here again to tell you what came of it anyway. The good thing is that there's *something* going on.

As soon as there's developments, there will be an update. In the meantime I'm reading this thread and others to make sure I get your collective opinion to relay it to CCP for the next meeting.


You informed us of nothing. All you said was, "We met with CCP Zulu, who is the senior developer for EVE Online and has absolutely no control over what goes on because he's not a 'suit' like Hilmar". You provided no details about what was said, citing the NDA. You provided no details as to what was mentioned, citing the NDA. You provided no specific topics, citing the NDA.

The reason we are "decrying" the results is because there have been no results. Once again, we have absolutely nothing going on that supports anything you say. A supercapital ship nerf? Congratulations. But it was something that was coming, not something you single-handedly as the current CSM suggested happen. You are piggybacking off of the collective works of previous CSMs even if you were on it or not.

As someone else said, CCP says what they want you to hear, then does what they want to do. That's par for the proverbial course. They created a game where lying, cheating, swindling, and general asshattery commonly frowned upon in real life is the everyday norm. Why should we believe that the developers of such a game aren't lying to us?
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#326 - 2011-09-12 16:18:33 UTC
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
Gogela wrote:
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
lotta stuff...

They'll provide explanations and justifications, but admission of failure? Rarely...

Now THERE is some scary CSM insight. ...to think my favorite game is being by Chevrolet Motors... I hope Iceland has a "too big to fail" policy in their country too... Sad


Sorry, I mistyped my comment, I added "public" in "public admission of failure".

They'll admit to us they f..ked up allright, but doing so in public is different. (Hey, who likes that).

Well that's a relief. If they will at least admit internally when they are fu**ing up that's fine... at least they will do that. I would rather be in the dark but know they will admit mistakes and not be afraid to correct course than to be in the know with a broken company...

Ugh

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Zleon Leigh
#327 - 2011-09-12 17:03:35 UTC
The Mittani wrote:
Neftaran wrote:
I truly do not see why do you space politicians even bother posting this type of information. It's getting so repetitive and pointless. You wave your saber around to garner some attention.. CCP lets things gestate for a few days and then low and behold it's time for a meeting. You have your meeting then regurgitate the same responses we've been hearing for years. Few months from now we will get some more space drama and the never ending spin cycle of b.s. will start over again.

Player representation is nothing more than an illusion.


Great, don't vote in CSM7, and I'll keep all this power and influence to myself. No big!



Are the results from the independent auditors on CSM on-shore/off-shore bank accounts in yet?



Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital. CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day

PvP's latest  incentive program ** Unified Inventory **  'Cause you gotta kill something after trying to use it
Swearte Widfarend
Ever Vigilant Fountain Defenders
#328 - 2011-09-12 17:44:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Swearte Widfarend
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Guys, there is nothing any of us can say at this point more than what we've said.

But know that we are working hard on your behalf to get CCP to address your concerns regarding FiS.


More like on behalf of the people that play in null-sec.


If you've been playing the game at all you'd realize what happens in nullsec affects empire, and vice versa. This game has many similarities to a functioning ecology - remove one species or poison one habitat and the whole chain is disrupted. I simply dont buy that you can fight for change in one area of eve and not have repercussions elsewhere. It is NO coincidence that amidst all the hubbub about nullsec stagnation, we are seeing a spike in lowsec of displaced and bored alliances going on the roam and searching inward for fights, isk, and lulz.


Forums ate my post. At least some things don't change.

The ability of the average empire player to comprehend the interaction between nullsec and empire is tenuous, at best.

WIthout the player-driven content in nullsec (translation: PvP fleet fights and ships blowing up in large volumes) your pretty loots, salvage, and LP items placed on the market don't sell for you as a profit.

Anything done to improve Nullsec, and break the spiral of declining subscriptions and logins (one of my accounts lapsed this weekend, not sure when I'll resub it if at all) will improve the markets and hence the profits of the Empire players. Ship balancing done for nullsec works in Empire (well, mostly), which benefits Empire players. In fact, it might be a safe statement that almost any change to improve nullsec would be good for EVE as a whole, which you can't say about any change to empire. (sorry, mission buff doesn't create player content which creates marketing which brings new players).

Democracy is only as good as the despot managing the voting booth.
Swooshie
USA Canada Private Corp
#329 - 2011-09-12 17:48:45 UTC
gogela wrote:
Well that's a relief. If they will at least admit internally when they are fu**ing up that's fine... at least they will do that. I would rather be in the dark but know they will admit mistakes and not be afraid to correct course than to be in the know with a broken company...


I'll even go further:

I don't even give a flying beep if they admit they are wrong or not IF I see corrections being made whenever something is clearly wrong. Expertise and professionalism speak louder then words when they are there.

I wise man once said that the crowd would be judged by its actions not words...

I shall do the same

"It is when I think about meaning that I lose what I meant to say."     -Swooshie
The Mittani
State War Academy
Caldari State
#330 - 2011-09-12 18:17:25 UTC
Dalketh wrote:
Vaako Horizon wrote:



This was a bone... instead of this crap you guys should have been silent...
Reason? well, this bone will now make us long for something again which if it ever happens ( as it feels atm not ever ) its gonna be a long long time until we see it.


THIS EXACTLY. CCP messes up - CSM supposedly to the rescue - CSM satisfied with CCP saying/promising blah blah blah... we wait... and nothing.... CSM angry... summits... emergency meetings... CSM say wait they are optimistic... then NOTHING.... CSM gets up in arms... we supposed to pay attention yet again... then CSM pleased... then NOTHING... over and over. Year after year. 'This time will be different'... don't you understand you are wearing us out? If you can't make a difference... quit. If you can... we haven't really seen it and are tired. Mitten's profanity filled speeches and Trebor's damage control not withstanding... we are feeling hopeless imo.... thats what I see. FYI a nullsec boost (since the current CSM so null-sec heavy) isn't going to cut it if that is current thought.


That's one of the funnier things about being from nullsec and then getting a spot on the CSM. We swear casually all the time, it's completely unremarkable. You give a speech to people from hisec and suddenly you begin to encounter the tiny population of players who can somehow find it in themselves to still be upset by "dirty words" - in a game with no law but that of the jungle. Amazing.

~hi~
Steph Wing
No Dukks Given
#331 - 2011-09-12 18:21:40 UTC
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
One thing you have to remember is that you'll _very_ rarely see CCP saying they screwed up, even when it's obvious they did. They'll provide explanations and justifications, but public admission of failure? Rarely...


I'm sure the CSM has expressed many times how much damage control a simple "mea culpa" in CCP's Official Voice would do.

And I'm sure it's been dismissed/ignored. Sigh.
J Kunjeh
#332 - 2011-09-12 18:24:51 UTC
The Mittani wrote:

That's one of the funnier things about being from nullsec and then getting a spot on the CSM. We swear casually all the time, it's completely unremarkable. You give a speech to people from hisec and suddenly you begin to encounter the tiny population of players who can somehow find it in themselves to still be upset by "dirty words" - in a game with no law but that of the jungle. Amazing.



That's sorta like saying "we're foul-mouthed pirates in the locker room, but my mom slaps me stoopid every time I say bastard at the dinner table". See, not all of us are psychopathic animals like you coyote's out in Null with your dirty, dirty mouths. Now go wash that thing out with soap.

"The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5) 
The Mittani
State War Academy
Caldari State
#333 - 2011-09-12 18:24:56 UTC
Getting CCP to admit mistakes in plain english is very hard. The more defensive they are, the more likely their interlocutors at the higher levels are to use weasel words and lengthy caveats. That's pretty standard for most corporations though. It's frustrating as hell but I suppose it's par for the course?

Even if it's commonplace, it annoys me. A bit of 'we ****** up, we know it' realtalk with the players would go a long way towards restoring trust.

~hi~
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#334 - 2011-09-12 18:35:56 UTC
The Mittani wrote:
Getting CCP to admit mistakes in plain english is very hard. The more defensive they are, the more likely their interlocutors at the higher levels are to use weasel words and lengthy caveats. That's pretty standard for most corporations though. It's frustrating as hell but I suppose it's par for the course?

Even if it's commonplace, it annoys me. A bit of 'we ****** up, we know it' realtalk with the players would go a long way towards restoring trust.


At this point I care less about them admitting they've chronically under-resourced and neglected core Eve Online for the last several years than in them commiting immediately to a return to proper expansions with genuinely-impressive content and feature sets that use a significant portion of their manpower to produce.

If Hillmar wants to blame volcanic ash for the crap state of Eve so be it.

Just get them to start producing Exodus/Apocrypha scale development again and I think everyone will be very happy.

They were able to do this once when they were much smaller.
There is no reason they can't do it again.
(especially not when the potential survival of their sole current income-source is at risk)

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
The Mittani
State War Academy
Caldari State
#335 - 2011-09-12 18:40:48 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
The Mittani wrote:
Getting CCP to admit mistakes in plain english is very hard. The more defensive they are, the more likely their interlocutors at the higher levels are to use weasel words and lengthy caveats. That's pretty standard for most corporations though. It's frustrating as hell but I suppose it's par for the course?

Even if it's commonplace, it annoys me. A bit of 'we ****** up, we know it' realtalk with the players would go a long way towards restoring trust.


At this point I care less about them admitting they've chronically under-resourced and neglected core Eve Online for the last several years than in them commiting immediately to a return to proper expansions with genuinely-impressive content and feature sets that use a significant portion of their manpower to produce.

If Hillmar wants to blame volcanic ash for the crap state of Eve so be it.

Just get them to start producing Exodus/Apocrypha scale development again and I think everyone will be very happy.

They were able to do this once when they were much smaller.
There is no reason they can't do it again.
(especially not when the potential survival of their sole current income-source is at risk)



sigh, + repping another jade post

fml

~hi~
Officer Spawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#336 - 2011-09-12 18:55:26 UTC
Without getting into exactly what was said in the meeting, how can the CSM verify that what Zulu said has happened or will happen really did take place ? If he said "30 extra developers working full time on FiS from December 1st" is there some way in which you can check this really happened in a reliable way ?
Orakkus
ImperiaI Federation
Goonswarm Federation
#337 - 2011-09-12 20:25:49 UTC
I guess my question is based on what "Project A" is.

The rest of the meeting minutes seem to not address anything much in Incarna. So can the CSM confirm the "Project A" is an Incarna based update?

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#338 - 2011-09-12 20:46:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
...not sure if this has been posted before or if anyone cares, but there are some insightful reviews here.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#339 - 2011-09-12 21:10:58 UTC
Officer Spawn wrote:
Without getting into exactly what was said in the meeting, how can the CSM verify that what Zulu said has happened or will happen really did take place ? If he said "30 extra developers working full time on FiS from December 1st" is there some way in which you can check this really happened in a reliable way ?



I don't think CCP has been dishonest in the past. If they say they are assigning these devs to these activities I will believe it.

I believed Zulu's blog in July 2010. I believed them when they said they wouldn't be able to work on much in eve for 18 months. It disgusts me that they are neglecting eve, but I can't say they were dishonest about it. In fact they have been brutally honest.

In any event, the csm would certainly be able to tell when they meet with ccp.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#340 - 2011-09-12 21:11:18 UTC
The Mittani wrote:

sigh, + repping another jade post

fml


What have we become? Ugh

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016