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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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It's a WAR ZONE

Author
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1 - 2014-09-16 15:04:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikk Narrel
Ok, this is a proposed tweak to sov mechanics.

It is an idea, not a finished blueprint, so I would appreciate any adjustments that would help improve it.


This would establish three types of environments for pilots in null sec.

About Local Chat & Free Intel
Friendly: For you, Local Chat works the same as it does now, since your alliance / corp has sovereignty over this space.
Contested: Everyone has local on delayed, where noone sees a name until they speak.
Hostile: You are in someone else's space, so they can see you are present, but for you others are on delayed.

Yes, this is a clear change to how Territorial Claim Units work. (TCU below)
Anchoring time would stay at 300s, but the onlining delay would be eliminated along with the daily upkeep for any system considered contested.

The frontier, or war zone, between hostile groups is where sov and it's control is determined.
Each side can anchor structures in this space, and it is considered uncontrolled so long as more than one group has a TCU structure present.

POS shields have NO TIMER in a system considered uncontrolled, so any system that becomes uncontrolled is at risk for rapid destruction.

To destabilize a system and make it uncontrolled, the invading force MUST have a direct gate connection to a system(s) where they are the sole force with anchored TCU structures.

NOTE:
NPC or Empire sov space can create a blanket exception, so that ANY alliance capable of fielding a TCU may substitute this NPC or Empire space for their own, as a connected system they control, in order to meet the requirement for direct connected systems.


This gives some newer alliances a starting point, as well as opening up any system connected to NPC / Empire space to levels of interest not present in deeper sov null areas.

Removing an opposed TCU can be done by first anchoring your own TCU, which requires the above described gate connection to a system where you have sole control.
Once you have anchored your TCU, any other TCU in the system becomes vulnerable to attack by your group.

I believe that this would clearly result in a frontier line between forces that would change often, with previously safe systems suddenly becoming at risk more quickly than before.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-09-16 15:21:51 UTC
So a lattice system of sorts where all of your systems need to be linked together via having a gate connection? That's not a bad idea in itself, but how would stations and ihubs be treated in this warfare?
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#3 - 2014-09-16 15:30:32 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
So a lattice system of sorts where all of your systems need to be linked together via having a gate connection? That's not a bad idea in itself, but how would stations and ihubs be treated in this warfare?


I would propose that they could not be taken by force, BUT...
They could be sold.

By explanation, I would describe this as an opportunity for the hostile invading force to make an offer to purchase an 'intact' structure, rather than need to destroy and replace it outright.

The defending force, likely on it's way out the door, could negotiate terms alongside ISK, so they could arrange for full evacuation.

Of course, the hostiles might be motivated to destroy everything, if they had a grudge.

Yes, I would propose that stations are destructible here.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#4 - 2014-09-16 17:14:15 UTC
The NPC exception:

I was holding off on this to see if anyone would point it out by asking, but since noone did, I will submit this modification to the idea here.

NPC or Empire sov space can create a blanket exception, so that ANY alliance capable of fielding a TCU may substitute this NPC or Empire space for their own, as a connected system they control, in order to meet the requirement for direct connected systems.

This gives some newer alliances a starting point, as well as opening up any system connected to NPC / Empire space to levels of interest not present in deeper sov null areas.
baltec1
Bat Country
The Initiative.
#5 - 2014-09-16 17:40:51 UTC
This would make it even easier for us to defend our space than it is now.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#6 - 2014-09-16 17:55:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
This would make it even easier for us to defend our space than it is now.

An observation, I believe you are making here.

To a degree, yes, I agree it might make systems deeper inside of larger system clusters easier to defend.

On the other hand, I believe sov holders could find themselves pressed into sustained activity at any potential border with a different alliance, and drastically higher activity near any NPC controlled space.
baltec1
Bat Country
The Initiative.
#7 - 2014-09-16 19:53:54 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
This would make it even easier for us to defend our space than it is now.

An observation, I believe you are making here.

To a degree, yes, I agree it might make systems deeper inside of larger system clusters easier to defend.

On the other hand, I believe sov holders could find themselves pressed into sustained activity at any potential border with a different alliance, and drastically higher activity near any NPC controlled space.


All you have done is funnel attackers into a handfull of systems that are easily defended.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#8 - 2014-09-16 20:12:23 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
This would make it even easier for us to defend our space than it is now.

An observation, I believe you are making here.

To a degree, yes, I agree it might make systems deeper inside of larger system clusters easier to defend.

On the other hand, I believe sov holders could find themselves pressed into sustained activity at any potential border with a different alliance, and drastically higher activity near any NPC controlled space.


All you have done is funnel attackers into a handfull of systems that are easily defended.

That is your opinion.

The ability to field a deliberately obscured number of forces to a conflict, will blindfold those who would coldly calculate how to most efficiently block invasions.

Do they place heavy forces at which of a dozen different systems?
(You did mention defending space, which I conditionally agree to only describing larger sov holding blocks)

A larger alliance can have more than enough points of contact, especially if they are next to NPC held space.
Being forced to rely on human pilots to relay intel, concerning enemy fleet sizes and activity, we also introduce human error along with delays for those not checking back for updates at the right time.

In other words, the size of a larger alliance would expose them to more risk, and the intel squawking of what is usually a minor skirmish at one point could easily mask a well planned thrust.

The major selling point of this concept, in my opinion, is that it will promote activity by allowing a wider range of competition with intel.

300 seconds to online a TCU, once the connection behind yours only has friendly TCU's anchored, and you push back that frontier. And the lights go out in the newly contested system just like they did in the previous one, just like the lights go on for the invader in their now more secure system.

No idea can promise better gameplay, but I believe this can create more opportunities for it than would otherwise exist.
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2014-09-16 20:54:16 UTC
The problem lies in the week of repeating RF timers needed to take a single system's sov, not taking pos towers or local. See my signature.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#10 - 2014-09-16 21:47:26 UTC
Lugia3 wrote:
The problem lies in the week of repeating RF timers needed to take a single system's sov, not taking pos towers or local. See my signature.

I agree that timers are a hindrance, in many cases.

Hence this:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
POS shields have NO TIMER in a system considered uncontrolled, so any system that becomes uncontrolled is at risk for rapid destruction.


Now, by using the standard method they could still strike behind the border systems, but using this system they could quite possibly force their way in and repave the path as they moved.
Felix Judge
Regnum Ludorum
#11 - 2014-09-18 17:11:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Felix Judge
So there are no timers in contested systems. Which means you can, starting from NPC or Empire space, contest and take the first system in the sov holders off-timezone, then the next, then the next - couldn't you actually steamroll into someone's territory practically overnight?

How about you must hold a system for a day or two before it makes you eligible for the next system?

Apart from that, I think I like this idea also.
Because large entities could be attacked on many fronts at the same time, without the timers that grant them the n+1 advantage.
Nice one!
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#12 - 2014-09-18 18:32:12 UTC
Felix Judge wrote:
So there are no timers in contested systems. Which means you can, starting from NPC or Empire space, contest and take the first system in the sov holders off-timezone, then the next, then the next - couldn't you actually steamroll into someone's territory practically overnight?

How about you must hold a system for a day or two before it makes you eligible for the next system?

Apart from that, I think I like this idea also.
Because large entities could be attacked on many fronts at the same time, without the timers that grant them the n+1 advantage.
Nice one!

Underlining the key point, in my opinion.

This seems a valid point, and I myself feel 24 hours should be more than enough time for defenders to prepare a response.

My reasoning here, is that border systems should not feel as secure as internal locations, deep behind contested areas.

Does anyone suggest a time frame besides 24 hours, and if so, why shorter or longer?
Felix Judge
Regnum Ludorum
#13 - 2014-09-18 21:35:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
All you have done is funnel attackers into a handfull of systems that are easily defended.

It is more than a handful. Pure Blind alone has 10 such possible entry points.

evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Pure_Blind/

CFC, e.g., probably has several dozen of such systems right now.

Which means, the large blocs might not be confronted with a single timer at a time, where they can bring their superior numbers all into that one system where the timed structure is. They would instead have to deal with maybe dozens of attacks, made independently by several different groups, having to defend at several locations at once. Meaning, they would have to, for the first time in years, actually split their forces against several enemies. To me, that sounds as if the systems will not be as easily defended as they are now.
Iain Cariaba
#14 - 2014-09-18 22:12:47 UTC
Felix Judge wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
All you have done is funnel attackers into a handfull of systems that are easily defended.

It is more than a handful. Pure Blind alone has 10 such possible entry points.

evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Pure_Blind/

CFC, e.g., probably has several dozen of such systems right now.

Which means, the large blocs might not be confronted with a single timer at a time, where they can bring their superior numbers all into that one system where the timed structure is. They would instead have to deal with maybe dozens of attacks, made independently by several different groups, having to defend at several locations at once. Meaning, they would have to, for the first time in years, actually split their forces against several enemies. To me, that sounds as if the systems will not be as easily defended as they are now.

Try this one. Under Nikk's system, if you hold a total of 9 systems in Feythabolis and Tenefiris you would have total control of not only those two regions, but Omist as well. This method would merely drive all conflict into the regional chokepoints, where the blobs would amass to defend them, eventually working into each of the coalitions only needing to defend maybe a dozen and a half systems to lock down huge areas of the map, all with JB, cyno, and Titan bridge networks to move the blob to where it's needed.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#15 - 2014-09-19 00:00:00 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Try this one. Under Nikk's system, if you hold a total of 9 systems in Feythabolis and Tenefiris you would have total control of not only those two regions, but Omist as well. This method would merely drive all conflict into the regional chokepoints, where the blobs would amass to defend them, eventually working into each of the coalitions only needing to defend maybe a dozen and a half systems to lock down huge areas of the map, all with JB, cyno, and Titan bridge networks to move the blob to where it's needed.

This doesn't remove existing conflict options, it just adds new ones.

If someone wants to pressure up an interior system and deal with timers, they can certainly do so.

Imagine the interest in defending a timer, with other players amping up system conflicts at the same time.

By diverting forces to defend this frontier, regular defense becomes more challenging.
Felix Judge
Regnum Ludorum
#16 - 2014-09-19 08:16:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Felix Judge
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Try this one. Under Nikk's system, if you hold a total of 9 systems in Feythabolis and Tenefiris you would have total control of not only those two regions, but Omist as well. This method would merely drive all conflict into the regional chokepoints, where the blobs would amass to defend them, eventually working into each of the coalitions only needing to defend maybe a dozen and a half systems to lock down huge areas of the map, all with JB, cyno, and Titan bridge networks to move the blob to where it's needed.

Indeed, you would have to hold nine systems. Even if N3/PL would ONLY want to hold those three regions, they would have to constantly distribute their forces between up to nine systems at the same time.

Which is completely different from the sov mechanics now, which dictate to have all your forces in one single system at a certain point of time.
After this consideration, I still think this idea has the potential to be a nulsec-game-changer, helping to break up the large blocs' standoff.
Felix Judge
Regnum Ludorum
#17 - 2014-09-23 12:55:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Felix Judge
I still like this idea.
(Minus the local chat changes.)
And I would consider only removing the timers on sov structures, not of POSes, in the war zones.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#18 - 2014-09-23 13:01:04 UTC
Felix Judge wrote:
I still like this idea.
(Minus the local chat changes.)
And I would consider only removing the timers on sov structures, not of POSes, in the war zones.


I feel local chat needs to be biased for sov null.

If you are the uncontested owner, it works for you.
If the area is contested, it works for noone.
If the area is uncontested hostile, it works for them.

It adds, in my opinion, a more noticeable fog of war feel, where others can deny you convenient access to their status.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#19 - 2014-09-23 14:18:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Adrie Atticus
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Felix Judge wrote:
I still like this idea.
(Minus the local chat changes.)
And I would consider only removing the timers on sov structures, not of POSes, in the war zones.


I feel local chat needs to be biased for sov null.

If you are the uncontested owner, it works for you.
If the area is contested, it works for noone.
If the area is uncontested hostile, it works for them.

It adds, in my opinion, a more noticeable fog of war feel, where others can deny you convenient access to their status.


Nah, we've got concord reporting all ship beacons in all of known space, don't screw with that without allowing modules to be fit to cloak you from local in lowsec and hisec.

You haven't talked about ihub and station timers yet, how about those?
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#20 - 2014-09-23 14:35:24 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Felix Judge wrote:
I still like this idea.
(Minus the local chat changes.)
And I would consider only removing the timers on sov structures, not of POSes, in the war zones.


I feel local chat needs to be biased for sov null.

If you are the uncontested owner, it works for you.
If the area is contested, it works for noone.
If the area is uncontested hostile, it works for them.

It adds, in my opinion, a more noticeable fog of war feel, where others can deny you convenient access to their status.


Nah, we've got concord reporting all ship beacons in all of known space, don't screw with that without allowing modules to be fit to cloak you from local in lowsec and hisec.

You haven't talked about ihub and station timers yet, how about those?

To your first point, this is neither lowsec nor high sec.
We can decide that the NPC masters of those systems have decided to share all of their intel, as they do not feel threatened by expansion of others into their space.

Put in other words, they wish to remain neutral, and expose all intel to further that stance.

As to timers, I stand by my view that contested space, as in having two or more anchored TCU units from opposing groups, renders all timers in that system null and void.

Once the shields are down, the armor is next.
If the attacker wishes to save time rebuilding, and offers to purchase structures rather than destroy and rebuild, that is an issue for diplomacy.