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A Reminder Regarding Real Life Harassment

First post First post First post
Author
Absolutely Not Analt
Carebears on Fire
Viral Society
#21 - 2014-09-10 23:30:04 UTC
Handsome Feller wrote:
Jin Kugu wrote:
Can you harass someone in real life if you don't know who that person is in real life?


If you've ever been on the receiving end of some persistent & aggressive telephone marketing, you'd know the (obvious) answer to this.


The last telephone marketer to call my house got this reponse:

*phone rings - the number pops up on my caller id as unknown, so I roll my eyes*
Hello, who is this?
My name is XXXX with YYYY and I'd like...
How did you get this number?
What?
This is a classified number registered to the NSA. I need to speak to your supervisor immediately. You will also need to remain at your present location until agents arrive to question you.
*click*
:smug:

Eve is a multi player game. And you are the content. - Ralph King-Griffin Being meh at two things is not better than being great at one. - Lugh Crow-Slave

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#22 - 2014-09-10 23:36:35 UTC
I don't really know what the bonus room thing is, nor do I care. But does this announcement mean that we can no longer ransom and/or extort players as part of pirate activities? Because that's what it sounds like.

I could be ransoming a ship, and the victim could say that I'm utilizing his in-game assets in order to harass them in real life, because the threat of loss of their assets means more to them than the time they invested into the game, and makes them feel real, tangible grief. Anyone who pays for PLEX could also, theoretically, say that I'm harassing them in real life when attempting a ransom because I affect their real-life finances, and not only their in-game progress.

Even I have to agree that these explanations would fit within Falcon's definition of harassment. So, I'd like to know what we can and can't do. Because it really sounds like we can no longer do anything, as long as the target claims to feel real-life grief.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Lord Kailethre
Tengoo Uninstallation Service
#23 - 2014-09-10 23:40:01 UTC
So, we don't have a list of people who have been banned, and we don't have a list of reasons why, just that its 'real life harassment.

This is like a dictatorship executing political rivals for :reasons:
I wish there was more transparency in these decisions, for all we know none of these people were even warned.
Kristalll
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#24 - 2014-09-10 23:49:00 UTC
I can't help but point out that when the last statement was made, we pretty much all said that super vague statements that nobody can interpret to really mean anything don't solve any issue.

Until an actual concrete statement is made for people to work with, you'll just have to keep posting the same vague thing since nobody can tell what you mean.

“Die trying” is the proudest human thing.

Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2014-09-10 23:55:10 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
There is something that has always bothered me about this separation of the "virtual game world" and "the real world".

Every person playing the game is in the real world. Every computer being used for play is in the real world. Every word seen on a computer screen is shown on a screen in the real world and read by a person in the real world.

It would seem that the game world consists of bytes in a computer, and nothing more. So this statement "However, it is important to remember that the EVE universe is a virtual world, and behavior of this nature should remain firmly within that virtual world. " means that harassment type behavior cannot be displayed on any computer screen to any person, because as soon as it is, that behavior enters the real world.


horrible job at trolling or logic

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#26 - 2014-09-11 00:14:33 UTC
Lord Kailethre wrote:
So, we don't have a list of people who have been banned, and we don't have a list of reasons why, just that its 'real life harassment.

This is like a dictatorship executing political rivals for :reasons:
I wish there was more transparency in these decisions, for all we know none of these people were even warned.


If it bothers you then quit and find a game that supplies random players with that kind of detailed info.

Oh...right...none do.

I guess it's time to get used to single player games.

Mr Epeen Cool
Yonis Pserad
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#27 - 2014-09-11 00:23:24 UTC
I'm all in favor of scamming, so long as it's primarily for materiel gain and not humiliation. There are, unfortunately, people who aren't in the right place mentally. People who might be unstable, down on their luck, or just having a bad day. I've been there, and it hurts. No game should support driving these people into a bad place, it's simply barbaric. Rob a character blind, steal their ships, JF their assets to CFC space, it's all well and good. But it's when you try to harm the person behind the character, then it goes far too far.

I believe CCP is doing the right thing with this call.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#28 - 2014-09-11 00:27:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
I don't really know what the bonus room thing is, nor do I care. But does this announcement mean that we can no longer ransom and/or extort players as part of pirate activities? Because that's what it sounds like.


We can ransom, scam, repeatedly kill, steal, laugh at, point fingers and whatever you want to do (within the EULA)... INGAME against the CHARACTER. The second you start to target the PERSON behind the character is where the problem potentially will arise and then it depends on the intent, severity and CCP's discretion what, if any, the implications will be.

So people who have a working brain and see the game for what it is and leave it all in game, no problems there, go have fun. But for the few folks who apparently have issues making that clear distinction between a game and RL (or do this on purpose for whatever psychiatric evaluation-worthy reason) it, again, needs to be made official and public that CCP doesn't accept that ****.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#29 - 2014-09-11 00:27:30 UTC
From reddit, the dude that got banned was involved with convincing people to pod themselves ~50 times without updating clones.

Not a big loss tbh.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#30 - 2014-09-11 00:36:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Veers Belvar
I fully support this. Eve is a virtual world, and activities should remain inside the virtual world. Using Eve assets as a mechanism to get people on coms and humiliate/emotionally abuse them is not part of the game, and Eve assets should not be used for that purpose.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#31 - 2014-09-11 00:44:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
PotatoOverdose wrote:
From reddit, the dude that got banned was involved with convincing people to pod themselves ~50 times without updating clones.


Also from Reddit, DJ Entropy is saying that all these friends of his are getting banned that had no connection with the bonus room.

So it could very well be from something else entirely. It's only speculation that players are jumping on the BR thing. It's also quite possible that some of the sick fucks that were involved in the bonus room found some other way to abuse players in real life and it's just a coincidence that some of them are on the ban list.

Mr Epeen Cool
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#32 - 2014-09-11 00:46:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Gregor Parud wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
I don't really know what the bonus room thing is, nor do I care. But does this announcement mean that we can no longer ransom and/or extort players as part of pirate activities? Because that's what it sounds like.


We can ransom, scam, repeatedly kill, steal, laugh at, point fingers and whatever you want to do (within the EULA)... INGAME against the CHARACTER. The second you start to target the PERSON behind the character is where the problem potentially will arise and then it depends on the intent, severity and CCP's discretion what, if any, the implications will be.

So people who have a working brain and see the game for what it is and leave it all in game, no problems there, go have fun. But for the few folks who apparently have issues making that clear distinction between a game and RL (or do this on purpose for whatever psychiatric evaluation-worthy reason) it, again, needs to be made official and public that CCP doesn't accept that ****.

Right, I understand this. But what I want to know is what stops the victim from claiming that he was being harassed as a "person behind the character" each time someone else tries to do something he doesn't like. Because from what I've read on this matter so far, it doesn't look like the "bonus room" scamming involved any sort of out-of-game interpersonal relations in which people had to reveal their identities, or anything of that nature. I could be wrong of course. If you were ransoming me right now, what would stop me from claiming that your actions made me cry/depressed/suicidal in real life, and that I was tangibly affected out of game by your behavior? Or that I was forced to buy a PLEX to pay the ransom you demanded, because I had no ISK otherwise, and didn't want to lose my ship?

I just want CCP to address these inconsistencies.

Keep in mind I'm not picking sides here. I haven't yet developed a stance on this bonus room thing, which I'm just now becoming familiar with.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#33 - 2014-09-11 01:04:07 UTC
Anyone out of game interaction with the person rather than the character, so recordings would probably be a good guess :P
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#34 - 2014-09-11 01:11:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Gregor Parud wrote:
Anyone out of game interaction with the person rather than the character, so recordings would probably be a good guess :P

Are recordings any different than chat logs in terms of their nature?

The only way I can see for this to be true is based on a technicality, because EVE doesn't provide the capability for you to record voice chat, and any communication out-of-game, even about in-game activities, can be considered can be considered out-of-character.

For example, can a person be banned for ransoming a corporation member in an awox-style attack, if he's communicating with the victim on a corporate TS/Vent server, and not using in-game chat?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#35 - 2014-09-11 01:19:08 UTC
Already there are multiple posts with the beginning of the classic loop.

"Scamming is ok in-game so E1 shouldn't be banned"
"This was taken out of game so it's not ok"
"If it's out of game it's nothing to do with CCP"
"But it's all happening because stuffs were taken in-game"
"Scamming is ok in-game...

The amount of doublethink required to support bans like this on moral grounds is so astounding, and the justifications are such feats of mental gymnastics that I pre-emptively give this thread 5/5 Tearjars and I have the popcorn in the microwave.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment

evepal
Scholar of Rationality
#36 - 2014-09-11 01:22:30 UTC  |  Edited by: evepal
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Right, I understand this. But what I want to know is what stops the victim from claiming that he was being harassed as a "person behind the character" each time someone else tries to do something he doesn't like. Because from what I've read on this matter so far, it doesn't look like the "bonus room" scamming involved any sort of out-of-game interpersonal relations in which people had to reveal their identities, or anything of that nature. I could be wrong of course.


There's a 3 hour recording on sound-cloud of a man and his wife taken past breaking point, when they already had possession of all his assets. Not only did they not stop when it when it was clear that the man was agitated well beyond necessary, but they further increased their efforts to humiliate him. To top this off, they then uploaded the audio of this as a trophy for what great job they had done to these individuals, and shared them publicly.

Now, I absolutely love scamming and making people sing for their pod (even if they still blow it up anyway). I however, do not appreciate when people find it necessary to break an individual down to point of physical distress for the sake of self enjoyment alone. There is no other word that describes it better, than simply 'harassment'. There was no in game advantage to it, at all. This unfortunately is not an easy task to summarise in a simple catch-all rule, which is why people may cry that it's vague, but honestly, it's the best they can do.

Now, there's going to be a lot of "victim blaming" by people who haven't experienced it, and that's fine. I used to be the same way before a group of people felt it was necessary to launch a campaign against myself, resulting in two swat invasions of my home for the sake of seeing a reaction out of me. Just because my FPS clan beat their favourite FPS clan out of a bracket.

It's very difficult in those situations, when receiving such hatred that you can't comprehend as to why you're deserved of it, when you simply play a video game for the hope of having fun. You make decisions that at the time are fuelled by emotion, that don't seem so logical in hindsight. It's tough.

These people in question of the Bonus Room selectively targeted 'prey' that they hoped they could illicit a response out of. They've selectively chosen someone who has shown to be emotionally unstable, in the desires to watch them crumble for means of self entertainment. Their 'prey' have all their assets on the line, and are asked to do "just one more thing". It's sunken cost fallacy in play, their 'prey' believe that they can do just one more thing to see their troubles go away. That's why they don't stop. It's the same reason someone with a gambling addiction doesn't simply stop, they think they can get it back.

That's why HTFU doesn't apply to the victims, and why should they anyway? If they simply just had all their stuff taken away from them, and stopped there, then they should have HTFU. But they didn't. They crossed the line into making a person break down. It's an attack on the person at that point, well beyond their avatar.

I implore people to go out and scam. It makes the risk factor of EvE so great. Take all their stuff in a grand heist. Get them to sing for their pod. Just exhibit a bit of human decency if you decide to add the human factor by taking it out of EvE.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#37 - 2014-09-11 01:28:07 UTC
evepal wrote:
had all their stuff taken away
You should focus on writing fewer, but more correct words. I couldn't count the number of times I had to correct this one when the original E1 drama was on. There's other issues too, but I leave them as an exercise for the reader.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment

Amyclas Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2014-09-11 01:29:37 UTC
So is the line for real-life harassment going to remain vague?

Some of us enjoy harming other players with a passion, and the boundaries between character and person are bound to be crossed without clear guidelines on what isn't allowed.

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"

evepal
Scholar of Rationality
#39 - 2014-09-11 01:33:42 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
evepal wrote:
had all their stuff taken away
You should focus on writing fewer, but more correct words. I couldn't count the number of times I had to correct this one when the original E1 drama was on. There's other issues too, but I leave them as an exercise for the reader.


If that's not true (despite the countless articles stating otherwise versus your word), the rest of what I said is true. The quantity of what is taken is regardless of the fact that they took it further than to seek in game profit - to which you don't deny.

You wish to discredit the entire post by the means of critiquing one point, as if that somehow invalidates the rest - but I think anyone with a modicum of human decency will acknowledge with the basis of my response.
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#40 - 2014-09-11 01:34:57 UTC
Amyclas Amatin wrote:
So is the line for real-life harassment going to remain vague?

Some of us enjoy harming other players with a passion, and the boundaries between character and person are bound to be crossed without clear guidelines on what isn't allowed.

If you think you might have crossed a line, you probably did. Clear lines would only be abused and make a mess for the GMs. With a grey area, they can better decide on a case by case basis without internet lawyers going "technically" on them.