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Ore Compression and the State of Crius Industry

First post First post
Author
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#101 - 2014-09-03 22:51:07 UTC
Querns wrote:

Yep, sure -- that is accurate. I trust you'll be exiting the conversation now -- cheers!

Nope, I'm going to do what you Goons are too lazy to do, and see if I can obtain a snap shot, despite not living in Null, so not having any advantages of an intel Network like you do for safety in doing so.
Because if you are right about relative sizes, I'm quite prepared to admit it, I just really don't believe you are.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#102 - 2014-09-03 22:59:09 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Querns wrote:

Yep, sure -- that is accurate. I trust you'll be exiting the conversation now -- cheers!

Nope, I'm going to do what you Goons are too lazy to do, and see if I can obtain a snap shot, despite not living in Null, so not having any advantages of an intel Network like you do for safety in doing so.
Because if you are right about relative sizes, I'm quite prepared to admit it, I just really don't believe you are.

Have fun.

Here, I'll even offer a hint: Interceptor-class frigates, when fit properly, cannot be caught, making it laughably easy to travel to any nullsec system you want. I see your snide comment about magic, all-knowing intel channels and raise you actual game mechanics.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#103 - 2014-09-03 23:05:28 UTC
Querns wrote:

Have fun.

Here, I'll even offer a hint: Interceptor-class frigates, when fit properly, cannot be caught, making it laughably easy to travel to any nullsec system you want. I see your snide comment about magic, all-knowing intel channels and raise you actual game mechanics.

Inti's however, do not make it easy to sit in a belt and scan because it involves sitting still on a grid for a bit as you have a range limit. Not simply dashing from gate to gate.
Cloakies however work almost as well, and better for staying on the same grid for a while

Understanding the relevant game mechanics is even better than simply dropping a random mechanic and pretending you know everything.
Snap to come once I've formatted.
Prophet Tier
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2014-09-03 23:07:56 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Querns wrote:

Have fun.

Here, I'll even offer a hint: Interceptor-class frigates, when fit properly, cannot be caught, making it laughably easy to travel to any nullsec system you want. I see your snide comment about magic, all-knowing intel channels and raise you actual game mechanics.

Inti's however, do not make it easy to sit in a belt and scan because it involves sitting still on a grid for a bit as you have a range limit. Not simply dashing from gate to gate.
Cloakies however work almost as well, and better for staying on the same grid for a while

Understanding the relevant game mechanics is even better than simply dropping a random mechanic and pretending you know everything.
Snap to come once I've formatted.


I hope you realize that for a goon it's not about who's right or wrong. He's going to be a petulant child regardless.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#105 - 2014-09-03 23:10:45 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Inti's however, do not make it easy to sit in a belt and scan because it involves sitting still on a grid for a bit as you have a range limit. Not simply dashing from gate to gate.
Cloakies however work almost as well, and better for staying on the same grid for a while

Understanding the relevant game mechanics is even better than simply dropping a random mechanic and pretending you know everything.
Snap to come once I've formatted.

Use the orbit key to keep moving. Alternatively, find a belt that has no rats in it.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#106 - 2014-09-03 23:20:58 UTC
Prophet Tier wrote:
I hope you realize that for a goon it's not about who's right or wrong. He's going to be a petulant child regardless.

Ah, throwing stones in glass houses, I see. I just posted the adjunct thread as I was asked; I didn't leap upon the thread with multiple alts in a hamfisted attempt to protect my nascent industry.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Ranamar
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#107 - 2014-09-03 23:24:13 UTC
Querns wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Inti's however, do not make it easy to sit in a belt and scan because it involves sitting still on a grid for a bit as you have a range limit. Not simply dashing from gate to gate.
Cloakies however work almost as well, and better for staying on the same grid for a while

Understanding the relevant game mechanics is even better than simply dropping a random mechanic and pretending you know everything.
Snap to come once I've formatted.

Use the orbit key to keep moving. Alternatively, find a belt that has no rats in it.


Better yet, put a cloak on that interceptor. If you're putting a rock scanner instead of tackle in the mids and are filling the lows with nanofibers anyway, they have tons of fitting space.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#108 - 2014-09-03 23:28:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Querns wrote:

Use the orbit key to keep moving. Alternatively, find a belt that has no rats in it.

And you show a lack of understanding for how ore scanners work.

Anyway....

0.6 Averaged
Azure Plagioclase 23760 12
Concentrated Veldspar 59505 6
Condensed Scordite 26043 11
Dense Veldspar 56347 1
Golden Omber 7701 2
Massive Scordite 27667 6
Omber 7578 22
Plagioclase 21490 17
Rich Plagioclase 18740 5
Scordite 24867 18
Silvery Omber 7155 8
Veldspar 51593 13
Total count 121


0.0 Averaged
Azure Plagioclase 27912 13
Concentrated Veldspar 55814 6
Condensed Scordite 25542 5
Dense Veldspar 52040 3
Jaspet 2915 13
Massive Scordite 33760 2
Plagioclase 27821 19
Pristine Jaspet 2693 3
Pure Jaspet 2788 11
Pyroxeres 22866 27
Rich Plagioclase 26100 5
Scordite 25470 16
Solid Pyroxeres 21988 7
Veldspar 65214 25
Viscous Pyroxeres 23171 5
And about 20 more asteroids that weren't convenient due to awkward placement
Total count 180

Based on a quick snapshoot we can see quantities are about the same (Null trending very slightly larger in most cases but within reasonable ranges). Size of the belt is about 50% larger in terms of total number of asteroids.
And Composition of the belt includes highly lucrative low sec ores as well.

Meaning that Null has vast quantities more of low ends relative to High, since they have vastly more systems overall.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#109 - 2014-09-03 23:39:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Omniblivion
Edit: phone failure
Nex Killer
Perkone
Caldari State
#110 - 2014-09-03 23:46:35 UTC
Querns wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Querns wrote:

The Bloodtears, probably the most experienced nullsec miners that I know, repeatedly assert that nullsec asteroid belts have minuscule amounts of ore. Check the Bloodtear Industry Report if you don't believe me.

Link, and Link to their high sec report also? Since High sec belts don't have that much ore either.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1205/Bloodtear_Industy_Index_Report_v3.pdf


That report is from May 3, 2012 before the Odyssey patch which upgraded null-sec ore by a lot.

Quote:

Ore Mining

We are adjusting the composition of several types of Ore that is found in low and null-security space. These changes help increase the reward for pilots mining in dangerous space. The volume of minerals obtained from these ores for each refine batch are:

Arkonor: 10000 Tritanium (+9700), 166 Zydrine, 333 Megacyte.
Bistot: 12000 Pyerite (+11830), 341 Zydrine, 170 Megacyte.
Crokite: 38000 Tritanium (+37669), 331 Nocxium, 663 Zydrine.
Dark Ochre: 25500 Tritanium (+25250), 500 Nocxium, 250 Zydrine.
Gneiss: 3700 Tritanium (+3529), 3700 Mexallon (+3529), 700 Isogen (+357), 171 Zydrine.
Spodumain: 71000 Tritanium (+67810), 9000 Pyerite (+8590), 140 Megacyte.


You are trying to use very outdated data to prove a point. Come on now... One small nullsec asteroid cluster (not the static belts) refines into:

99,186,139 Tritanium
15,512,976 Pyerite
1,603,670 Mexallon
780,091 Isogen
400,432 Nocxium
228,563 Zydrine
234,283 Megacyte

That is with max skills, 4% implant, and a 54% refiner (lowsec PoS mod). Let say you want to build lets say a Archon Carrier with a BPO of 7% ME, all the component BPO with 10% ME and no boost from PoS mods or stations. You would need in raw mats:

42,202,738 Tritanium
10,341,576 Pyerite
3,847,179 Mexallon
603,908 Isogen
171,169 Nocxium
30,702 Zydrine
13,255 Megacyte

One small asteroid cluster gives you all the tritanium needed for 2x Archons, Pyerite for 1x Archon, Mexallon for 0.41x Archon (Gotta mine a little more no big), Isogen for 1x Archon, Nocxium for 2.33x Archons, Zydrine for 7.44x Archons and Megacyte for 17.67x Archons. So my question is why do you big nullsec alliances need so much compressed ore from highsec when you have endless amounts of it in the systems you control? As you can see by the numbers a small asteroid cluster gives you about all the mats you need to build a carrier and then some. That doesn't even include what is refined from a medium and large cluster. Why do you guys depend so much on highsec? If you guys recruited miners, protected them, told them to compress at a PoS before selling it to you for under jita prices, you wouldn't need to rely on highsec for mats to build things.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#111 - 2014-09-03 23:49:01 UTC
Nex Killer wrote:
So my question is why do you big nullsec alliances need so much compressed ore from highsec when you have endless amounts of it in the systems you control?

See those really big numbers for how many archons worth of the high ends they mine. That's why. They import low ends to balance out that so they don't have to export a million high ends.
However the static belts have all the low ends they need. They just have to adjust to actually mining static belts while the ore prices are the way they are now. And go back to the anoms when high end prices rise again.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#112 - 2014-09-03 23:50:26 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Nex Killer wrote:
So my question is why do you big nullsec alliances need so much compressed ore from highsec when you have endless amounts of it in the systems you control?

See those really big numbers for how many archons worth of the high ends they mine. That's why. They import low ends to balance out that so they don't have to export a million high ends.
However the static belts have all the low ends they need. They just have to adjust to actually mining static belts while the ore prices are the way they are now. And go back to the anoms when high end prices rise again.

You've got a pretty funny idea of how many belts any given nullsec dweller has access to.

Why don't you tell me -- right now, how many belts could I potentially mine?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#113 - 2014-09-03 23:54:24 UTC
Querns wrote:

You've got a pretty funny idea of how many belts any given nullsec dweller has access to.

Why don't you tell me -- right now, how many belts could I potentially mine?

Goons own what.... 200ish systems last I looked don't they as an alliance?
So probably about 1500-2000 belts.

Hard to keep track of exactly how many systems you own and how many you are renting.

However if you only have access to 1 system of belts, that's because another 199 guys each have 1 other system also. So if you all mine your systems you have plenty.

Over all Null has access to somewhere in the region of 15-30,000 belts. Depending if the average is down at 5 a system or more like 10. In random map browsing I found systems with 20+ belts, so my personal guess is average is at least 10 a system, but I didn't do a database pull on that.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#114 - 2014-09-03 23:58:20 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Nex Killer wrote:
So my question is why do you big nullsec alliances need so much compressed ore from highsec when you have endless amounts of it in the systems you control?

See those really big numbers for how many archons worth of the high ends they mine. That's why. They import low ends to balance out that so they don't have to export a million high ends


This is the problem. The current null anoms provide so much m3 worth of high end ores that we are severely bottlenecked by low end minerals (mex). If we just "hire more miners" and continue to strip existing belts, "high end" ores will continue to plummet in price, and that's additional m3 that must be cycled before a new belt can be spawned. This is a fundamental problem with the nullsec anoms, which is why CCP has changed the ore comp multiple times on high end ores. They just need to flat out reduce the m3 of high end ores and replace it with low end m3 to balance out distribution.

It would take an incredible amount of man hours to locally source the mexallon for one super of any type. Meanwhile, we'd have a large enough surplus of zyd/mega to crash those prices below isogen levels. Then, mining in null would have such a low income per hour because of all the high end ores we'd have to cycle that it would be even worse of an actual profession in null.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#115 - 2014-09-04 00:01:55 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:

This is the problem. The current null anoms provide so much m3 worth of high end ores that we are severely bottlenecked by low end minerals (mex). If we just "hire more miners" and continue to strip existing belts, "high end" ores will continue to plummet in price, and that's additional m3 that must be cycled before a new belt can be spawned. This is a fundamental problem with the nullsec anoms, which is why CCP has changed the ore comp multiple times on high end ores. They just need to flat out reduce the m3 of high end ores and replace it with low end m3 to balance out distribution.

It would take an incredible amount of man hours to locally source the mexallon for one super of any type. Meanwhile, we'd have a large enough surplus of zyd/mega to crash those prices below isogen levels. Then, mining in null would have such a low income per hour because of all the high end ores we'd have to cycle that it would be even worse of an actual profession in null.

Static belts. Not Respawning Anoms.
There is no 'fundamental problem' with the anoms. There is a problem with how you mine in Null.
You have massive numbers of untouched static belts. Which have all those low & mid ends for you.
Nex Killer
Perkone
Caldari State
#116 - 2014-09-04 00:02:56 UTC
Querns wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Nex Killer wrote:
So my question is why do you big nullsec alliances need so much compressed ore from highsec when you have endless amounts of it in the systems you control?

See those really big numbers for how many archons worth of the high ends they mine. That's why. They import low ends to balance out that so they don't have to export a million high ends.
However the static belts have all the low ends they need. They just have to adjust to actually mining static belts while the ore prices are the way they are now. And go back to the anoms when high end prices rise again.

You've got a pretty funny idea of how many belts any given nullsec dweller has access to.

Why don't you tell me -- right now, how many belts could I potentially mine?


A small asteroid cluster is a anomaly created from the Infrastructure upgrades "Ore Prospecting" and once it is mined out a new one within seconds respawns. So to answer your question with with one system you have infinite amount of asteroid clusters to mine and means you have infinite resources. By you just asking that question goes to show you have little to no knowledge of how mining works and what nullsec mining has to offer and you shouldn't be giving any input on how compressing should work because you don't put in the work to do the mining. I'm not trying to be Grr Goon just putting the right facts out there, so that people don't get miss leaded.

Quote:

Ore Prospecting Array
This industrial upgrade adds per level one guaranteed hidden asteroid belt to the system, each of which will re-spawn instantly upon completion (they have to be mined out completely, the daily downtime does not respawn the site or single asteroids). A system will therefore be guaranteed to have at least five hidden asteroid belts at all times with an Ore Prospecting Array 5 installed (and active) - so long as the system's Industry Index remains at 5 as well. Note that if a site is not completed, and it is allowed to manually de-spawn after 3-4 days (typical time frame) then a new site will not respawn until after the next downtime. This means that leaving a single asteroid in a site will cause it to not despawn, and potentially slow the respawn of a new site.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#117 - 2014-09-04 00:06:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Querns wrote:

You've got a pretty funny idea of how many belts any given nullsec dweller has access to.

Why don't you tell me -- right now, how many belts could I potentially mine?

Goons own what.... 200ish systems last I looked don't they as an alliance?
So probably about 1500-2000 belts.

Wrong -- I only have access to Deklein. All other regions are owned by allies or are renter systems, which are off-limits to me and mine.

Some SQL helps us quantify this:

Eve Static Data Export wrote:

sqlite> select regionID from mapRegions where regionName = "Deklein";
10000035
sqlite> select typeID, typeName FROM invTypes WHERE typeName LIKE "%Asteroid Belt%";
15|Asteroid Belt
sqlite> select count(*) from mapDenormalize WHERE regionID = 10000035 AND typeID = 15;
710


That's 710 belts. Let's mine out, say, all the veldspar from all of these belts. That gives us 463,019,400 units of veldspar. Reprocessing all of this veldspar gives you 1,921,530,510 trit at (an impossible) 100% refine. Multiplying this by the best possible refine in nullsec (86.83%) and pretending refinery taxes don't exist, that is 1,668,464,942 trit for the entire output of all the veldspar. Now, let's triple that, because three variants of veldspar exist (and I'm too lazy to do them individually; this figure is a bit higher than reality.) That gives us 5,005,394,825 units of trit. Using http://eve-industry.org/calc/ to eyeball the cost of an avatar puts us at 3,745,571,923 tritanium, which means, if we ruthlessly exploit every scrap of trit in an asteroid belt that we have access to, we can build 1.33 titans a day.

However, we have dozens of titan producers. Plus, there are supercarriers, capital ships, and mass numbers of battleships that have to be produced. Suffice it to say -- asteroid belts cannot sate our needs. War in TYOOL 2014 requires more mineral resources than we can mine locally. This is simply the facts of life.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Nex Killer
Perkone
Caldari State
#118 - 2014-09-04 00:15:26 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Nex Killer wrote:
So my question is why do you big nullsec alliances need so much compressed ore from highsec when you have endless amounts of it in the systems you control?

See those really big numbers for how many archons worth of the high ends they mine. That's why. They import low ends to balance out that so they don't have to export a million high ends


This is the problem. The current null anoms provide so much m3 worth of high end ores that we are severely bottlenecked by low end minerals (mex). If we just "hire more miners" and continue to strip existing belts, "high end" ores will continue to plummet in price, and that's additional m3 that must be cycled before a new belt can be spawned. This is a fundamental problem with the nullsec anoms, which is why CCP has changed the ore comp multiple times on high end ores. They just need to flat out reduce the m3 of high end ores and replace it with low end m3 to balance out distribution.

It would take an incredible amount of man hours to locally source the mexallon for one super of any type. Meanwhile, we'd have a large enough surplus of zyd/mega to crash those prices below isogen levels. Then, mining in null would have such a low income per hour because of all the high end ores we'd have to cycle that it would be even worse of an actual profession in null.


So the problem isn't with compressing then. The real problem is with what roids are within nullsec. So why ask CCP to change compressing and not ask them to add in more Plagioclase, Gneiss or Kernite to nullsec to fix the mex and low end mineral problem? You guys have your own CSM member on the team, so why not ask them to bring that up within one of the meetings? If CCP changed that then compressing how it is doesn't need to change.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#119 - 2014-09-04 00:15:40 UTC
Nex Killer wrote:

A small asteroid cluster is a anomaly created from the Infrastructure upgrades "Ore Prospecting" and once it is mined out a new one within seconds respawns. So to answer your question with with one system you have infinite amount of asteroid clusters to mine and means you have infinite resources. By you just asking that question goes to show you have little to no knowledge of how mining works and what nullsec mining has to offer and you shouldn't be giving any input on how compressing should work because you don't put in the work to do the mining. I'm not trying to be Grr Goon just putting the right facts out there, so that people don't get miss leaded.

"Infinite" is still bound by the amount of time one is able to devote towards a given task. The number of useless highends contained in these sites in proportion to the lowends we lack puts huge speed bumps in acquiring the minerals you need to build, regardless of the rapacity at which you plunder these sites.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#120 - 2014-09-04 00:17:28 UTC
Querns wrote:


That's 710 belts. Let's mine out, say, all the veldspar from all of these belts. That gives us 463,019,400 units of veldspar. Reprocessing all of this veldspar gives you 1,921,530,510 trit at (an impossible) 100% refine. Multiplying this by the best possible refine in nullsec (86.83%) and pretending refinery taxes don't exist, that is 1,668,464,942 trit for the entire output of all the veldspar. Now, let's triple that, because three variants of veldspar exist (and I'm too lazy to do them individually; this figure is a bit higher than reality.) That gives us 5,005,394,825 units of trit. Using http://eve-industry.org/calc/ to eyeball the cost of an avatar puts us at 3,745,571,923 tritanium, which means, if we ruthlessly exploit every scrap of trit in an asteroid belt that we have access to, we can build 1.74 titans a day.

However, we have dozens of titan producers. Plus, there are supercarriers, capital ships, and mass numbers of battleships that have to be produced. Suffice it to say -- asteroid belts cannot sate our needs. War in TYOOL 2014 requires more mineral resources than we can mine locally. This is simply the facts of life.

Sorry.... remind me how many titans you loose a day? In fact how many titans have been lost across EVE this year, which has had the bloodiest titan battle ever that isn't likely to be repeated unless the goons have a civil war between titan pilots since no-one else has that kind of resources any more.
And remind me why you couldn't buy the ore from the renters (Which I understand aren't allowed to build their own titans)

Also, remind me why you didn't count any of the trit from the other ores in those belts. That's 1.74 Titans from JUST THE VELD! Most of those other ores also have Trit in them.
And more relevant to this thread, they are also higher value, and by mining them you'll also make high ends worth more again.
Which is the real point, it's Nulls own fault that high ends are worth so little because they don't make use of the other ores available to them.

I think we have found the issue though, it's called living beyond your means and unrealistic expectations.