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[Hyperion] Burner Missions

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Per Ole
State War Academy
Caldari State
#261 - 2014-08-28 19:38:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Per Ole
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Per Ole wrote:
So... A Guristas agent just gave me a mission to kill a Guristas burner. Can you at least fix this, please? :P


This is intended. The Burners have broken off from their parent factions and their actions are not sanctioned by their former employers.


Really? Well as long as I don't lose standings with the burners faction, that's kinda cool. It does mean that I have to buy yet another 150-200m frigate to deal with him, though Pirate
Clark Ostus
GOB Holdings
#262 - 2014-08-28 21:15:01 UTC
Is there any news on if salvaging these gives a chance of t2 salvage?
Cat Akakami
Big Titz High Critz
#263 - 2014-08-28 22:30:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Cat Akakami
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:


Also I guess there is some bug with him and drones, because I lost control of targeted drone twice when burner decided to go after him (drone "dced" and was just sitting there at 0m/s and burner changed his mind and didnt shoot him again).




That's no bug. Once a drone has received sufficent damage, it will "deactivate". Means it will float in space, neither reacting to ur commands nor doing anything on it's own. By targetting and repairing the drone u can regain control.

You rarely see this happen tho since drones usually explode seconds after being primaried ^^

Clark Ostus wrote:
Is there any news on if salvaging these gives a chance of t2 salvage?



Finally beat the Cruor Burner with Daredevil + Inquisitor.

Drops: Dark Blood Radio S, Gamma S, 1x Metal Scraps
Salvage: a handful of nothing

My guess is the usual faction spawn salvage.
WASPY69
Xerum.
#264 - 2014-08-28 22:44:55 UTC
Possibly a long post, but here's my C&C.

Burner missions are interesting. For curiosity's sake I tried some on SiSi and here's what I think.

  • They are NOT more "pvp like" pve gameplay. For a few reasons.
    • a) The behavior of the NPC is constant. You do x, you know for a fact it will respond with y.
    b) You can counter this with the *optimal* fit and you know it will work without fail every time.
    c) EWAR such as TD's and neuts don't work.
    d) No need to fit a point. This is the biggest issue I had with these. The NPC is like a tunnel-visioned newbie that's oblivious to the fact he can just warp off in a fight.

  • Easily doable in T2 ships with T2 only fits. Sure shiny fits will get the job done a few seconds faster and with less :effort:, but not at all needed.

  • Some changes that would make them more "pvp like" would be the following:
    • a) When the NPC is entering structure it will attempt to warp off if it has determined that your tank won't break before it dies.
    b) Because of point a, make sure you fit a a warp scram/disruptor.

  • Make them more interesting and dynamic to resemble real situations. For example:
    • Mission might read:
    "We've detected an illegal mining op and it is your job to send a clear message to them that they're in violation of the contracts or whatever.."
    When you enter the mission there are say, 6 NPC Retrievers, kill as many as you can before they warp off. And when the last one either dies or leaves the grid, an NPC Burner warps in and you duke it out. And if you force him off field you will get some RP text in local saying "Good fight! You might have beaten me this time but you haven't seen the last of me" and then mission is completed. And if you kill him you simply get the mission completed.

    Another mission might read:
    "A local gang is holding one of our agents hostage and are attempting to ransom, get there and make sure he gets out saftely"
    When you enter, there's a friendly NPC hauler with a tank that lasts X number of minutes, and it's surrounded by various low threat NPC's that you will have to kill. (note that they all behave as Burner NPC's). The hostage has a warp strength of say 4, and you will need to kill one or two NPC's before he can warp off. And once he warps off saftely the mission is completed. But you are still pointed by some NPC's and will either have to slingshot out of point range on the kiting ones, o kill the close brawling ones.

    Or lastly, a mission might read:
    A duo of wanted pirates have been spotted near one of our top secret research stations, get there, and deal with them and you will be generously compensated.
    Say you warp in, and one of them is in a buffer tanked, DPS ship, and his buddy is in a logistics frigate that's quite weak, but his reps will out-rep say 500 dps (close to the limit on a gank Daredevil) making it impossible to kill the Burner before you've dealt with his Logi buddy. But once he's dead you will be able to chew through the buffer tank (This mission wouldn't require more than 100 dps or so for example.)


Of course there would still be these 1v1 kinda Burner missions too.

And one other thing that'd be cool to see is burner missions where you face a T1 frigate instead of a pirate frigate (Be it "state" or "Imperial" etc..) and they all have "fittings" similar to what a player would have. (Kestrel with rockets and buffer tank, scram and web, or an active tanked incursus, or a scram kiting executioner etc..) Though these might be better suited as level 3 Burners.


Also, one last suggestion could be that you introduce Burner specific unique LP store items and/or modules that require special burner tags or something that gets dropped only by the Burner NPC.

TL;DR
Too easy to counter these missions with an optimal, no-risk ship fit that WILL work every time. You know the exact range, behavior, what kinda DPS you need to tank and what kinda DPS you need to break the tank.

This signature intentionally left blank
Ploing
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#265 - 2014-08-29 00:32:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Ploing
beaten the dram with this fit. lazorz are not my favorite. bit overheating while burn away. with t2 guns it should be a charm.

[Succubus, burner dramiel beater]
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

1MN Afterburner II
Pithi C-Type Small Shield Booster
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Pithum C-Type Explosive Deflection Amplifier

Small Focused Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Small Focused Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Small Diminishing Power System Drain I

Small Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer II
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Small Capacitor Control Circuit II

after that i had a meeting with a dare in an hawk. the dare hits me for 436 wrecking hits with 90/90% on thermal/kin. this assuemed for me he would do over 4000 dps alpha without ressi. thats a bit weird.
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#266 - 2014-08-29 13:48:04 UTC
WASPY69 wrote:
Possibly a long post, but here's my C&C.

Burner missions are interesting. For curiosity's sake I tried some on SiSi and here's what I think.

  • They are NOT more "pvp like" pve gameplay. For a few reasons.
    • a) The behavior of the NPC is constant. You do x, you know for a fact it will respond with y.
    b) You can counter this with the *optimal* fit and you know it will work without fail every time.
    c) EWAR such as TD's and neuts don't work.
    d) No need to fit a point. This is the biggest issue I had with these. The NPC is like a tunnel-visioned newbie that's oblivious to the fact he can just warp off in a fight.

  • Easily doable in T2 ships with T2 only fits. Sure shiny fits will get the job done a few seconds faster and with less :effort:, but not at all needed.

  • Some changes that would make them more "pvp like" would be the following:
    • a) When the NPC is entering structure it will attempt to warp off if it has determined that your tank won't break before it dies.
    b) Because of point a, make sure you fit a a warp scram/disruptor.

  • Make them more interesting and dynamic to resemble real situations. For example:
    • Mission might read:
    "We've detected an illegal mining op and it is your job to send a clear message to them that they're in violation of the contracts or whatever.."
    When you enter the mission there are say, 6 NPC Retrievers, kill as many as you can before they warp off. And when the last one either dies or leaves the grid, an NPC Burner warps in and you duke it out. And if you force him off field you will get some RP text in local saying "Good fight! You might have beaten me this time but you haven't seen the last of me" and then mission is completed. And if you kill him you simply get the mission completed.

    Another mission might read:
    "A local gang is holding one of our agents hostage and are attempting to ransom, get there and make sure he gets out saftely"
    When you enter, there's a friendly NPC hauler with a tank that lasts X number of minutes, and it's surrounded by various low threat NPC's that you will have to kill. (note that they all behave as Burner NPC's). The hostage has a warp strength of say 4, and you will need to kill one or two NPC's before he can warp off. And once he warps off saftely the mission is completed. But you are still pointed by some NPC's and will either have to slingshot out of point range on the kiting ones, o kill the close brawling ones.

    Or lastly, a mission might read:
    A duo of wanted pirates have been spotted near one of our top secret research stations, get there, and deal with them and you will be generously compensated.
    Say you warp in, and one of them is in a buffer tanked, DPS ship, and his buddy is in a logistics frigate that's quite weak, but his reps will out-rep say 500 dps (close to the limit on a gank Daredevil) making it impossible to kill the Burner before you've dealt with his Logi buddy. But once he's dead you will be able to chew through the buffer tank (This mission wouldn't require more than 100 dps or so for example.)


Of course there would still be these 1v1 kinda Burner missions too.

And one other thing that'd be cool to see is burner missions where you face a T1 frigate instead of a pirate frigate (Be it "state" or "Imperial" etc..) and they all have "fittings" similar to what a player would have. (Kestrel with rockets and buffer tank, scram and web, or an active tanked incursus, or a scram kiting executioner etc..) Though these might be better suited as level 3 Burners.


Also, one last suggestion could be that you introduce Burner specific unique LP store items and/or modules that require special burner tags or something that gets dropped only by the Burner NPC.

TL;DR
Too easy to counter these missions with an optimal, no-risk ship fit that WILL work every time. You know the exact range, behavior, what kinda DPS you need to tank and what kinda DPS you need to break the tank.

I highly agree with this post, my biggest problem with all of these missions is the EWAR immunity and inability to shut off MWD's via scrams, this is an extreme problem in that completely defeats the purpose of many modules entirely, there is no way to TD a target to disable his guns, AFAIK they cannot be ECM jammed or sensor damped, they cannot be neuted out to disable MWD's webs or scrams. I think this is completely unfair that an NPC has Scram immunity, neut immunity and all sorts meanwhile my ship is not in anyway and is impossible to be so. The first people post here are extremely specific to these missions, highly specialized and niche to these specific missions. Many of the burner npc's are unrealistic for "officer and faction mods" full scrams from 20+km? extreme AB speeds and extreme agilities that capsuleers don't have is very much unfair.
Seamus Donohue
EVE University
Ivy League
#267 - 2014-08-29 19:45:54 UTC
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
...AFAIK they cannot be ECM jammed....

They can be ECM jammed. I've tested this firsthand. However, you do want to use the correct racial jammer and you will need good ECM skills and a bonused hull for the job (so Griffin or Kitsune).

However, I do agree that the burners cannot be sensor dampened or tracking disrupted.

Survivor of Teskanen.  Fan of John Rourke.

I have video tutorials for EVE Online on my YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/SeamusDonohueEVE
Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
#268 - 2014-08-29 20:16:32 UTC
Ploing wrote:

after that i had a meeting with a dare in an hawk. the dare hits me for 436 wrecking hits with 90/90% on thermal/kin. this assuemed for me he would do over 4000 dps alpha without ressi. thats a bit weird.

This is my main problem with these ships.

Fozzie said they upped the Burners tracking 'a bit' to make up for them orbiting at full speed.....yet every single hit no matter what is a 'smashing'. I thinks the tracking can be brought down just a hair...

New Icon SiSi feedback thread that got wholly ignored!

An example of that a good ship icon set looks like.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#269 - 2014-08-30 05:26:13 UTC
I did the Angel and Serpentis ones and tried a few fits for lulz, but well, when I saw how lol easy it was with a daredevil I kinda lost interest in burner missions. I said somewhat seriously I figured a t2 fit Enyo could do all the burner missions, well when I tried the Angel one I couldn't even hit it with dual webs (I think that was with every flavor of blaster). where at the same time I turned off my hardeners and rep(s?) because it was pretty easy to tank and I just wanted to die. I imagine with more play I could make other fits work, but why bother when LOL daredevil.

ah well, looks like someone in jita was smart buying all the 65m daredevils and selling them for 100m. and the worm is up to 120m.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Lugalzagezi666
#270 - 2014-08-30 06:32:04 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
well when I tried the Angel one I couldn't even hit it with dual webs

Angel guy has like 10 signature radius, dont plan to hit him with guns unless you are faster than him.
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#271 - 2014-08-30 15:09:27 UTC
Cat Akakami wrote:
Spc One wrote:
Chuck Sanussi wrote:
Um.
Maulus 3x damp, DDA and drones, rails.

These npc's are immune to ewar so you can't use damps, ecm...
I tryed it has no effect.


I disagree, I successfully jammed and webbed the Cruor multiple times. But they don't have the stat you see when you look at the ship.
I just confirmed that the Cruor can lock and web @55km range. With perfect skill, even Tobias web (officer, requiring 22oo grid) caps @40km range. The webs with the longest range, that you actually can fit to a frigate are domination and true sansha, 15km range base, 30km range with maxed skills. Also max targeting range for Cruor is 42,25km without implants, mods or booster and i can't see any SeBo running on him.

That web range is beyond boosts, links and high end webs

even the max 18km faction ones would get out to 30 on minmatar frigate 5 + what ever extra boosts give you which is no where near 55km

they can't and shouldn't even be able to fit a tobias web and if it does its another misconstrued CCP development high artificial difficulty of these things
Sir HyperChrist
Persnickety Pilots
#272 - 2014-08-31 12:26:49 UTC
Confiming the Succubus burner can be ECM'ed. I used a Kitsune for supporting a Hawk. The triple racial ECM usually worked the first cycle, sometimes it took 2 cycles. Without fail the burner Succubus moved away to 80-130km, returning after the ECM had stopped. This behaviour made it impossible to kill as his shield would be pretty much completely recharged when he got back.

So ECM only proved a save method to bail out, which I needed a few times tbh :)

The Hawk couldn't apply damage, I suspect from the explosion velocity being (a lot) smaller than the burner velocity.

> First 2 tries I was using worm+kitsune. Drones did nice damage, but all in my bay got killed before the rat was down, and then it could tank me => bailout (once at 4% structure on the kitsune *grin*)
> Third try was hawk + kits. Got even less damage to the rat. The web on the Hawk cost me a lot of tank, and the rat was usually just out of range. I'm not yet that experienced using overheating, keep on expecting I burn things out :(
> Fourth try was Hawk + Cruor. The 30-km webs were a charm, and let the Hawk apply damage. I'm quite sure the T2/faction fit Cruor could have beat the rat solo too.

Oh, and this is without getting perfect fits from other players or watching youtube vids.

I Really Like these new missions. They're nice puzzles to solve, with a risk of cost of losses during the puzzling. This game needs more content for 10-year-old players that have a real life and job keeping them from fleet stuffs, but still like to be entertained a few hours per week. sign, I'm getting old...
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#273 - 2014-08-31 15:33:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Masao Kurata
Played around with the burners a bit late and while they're curious puzzles (especially on sisi where most faction modules have been bought so you can't easily get e.g. faction webs whcih would be oh so helpful) but ultimately the tactics that work are still very limited and once you have a working method there's not much incentive to try to solve it differently. I was hoping for these missions to highlight the power of ewar, but these damp, td, neuting immune rats don't give you any interesting options (a griffin/kitsune alt is not interesting). Also for solo your fits are extremely limited by range control because you always warp in within range for the burner to immediately scram and web you.

I find the statement that their stats reflect capsuleer ships bizarre since they certainly don't reflect real fits and in some cases have individual stats that are absolutely impossible even with a fit designed to max that stat at the expense of everything else. For instance, the burner dramiel's mjolnir rockets do 330 damage each!? The rate of fire is realistic but the damage is 4 times as much as you can get with a dramiel whose lows are filled with officer BCS, ignoring the fact that nobody would fit a BCS to a dramiel in the first place. You're not creating ships that resemble pvp encounters here, you're making monsters. The only reasons they're beatable solo are that you know exactly what you're going to fight and they're dumb as bricks. In short, write some new AI already and put the stats in line with an actual fit (note: singular, not the best of multiple fits).

On problems that are less to do with the missions themselves... putting these in the level 4 pool honestly makes no sense. They have nothing in common with level 4 missions, a L4 runner would have to specifically fetch the right ship for them unless he only uses one agent and thus has all ships at hand (and as far as I know nobody's found a single rigged frigate that can be fitted to run all of them solo) since he certainly can't run L4s with those AFs and pirate frigs (well maybe some but realistically he wouldn't do it). You get punished for declining L4s, but not for declining burners, so in the long run which are L4 runners going to decline, eh? If letting players choose to do these missions would give unreasonable rewards then you sure don't have much confidence in that dynamic reward system you mentioned.
XvXTeacherVxV
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#274 - 2014-09-02 19:29:16 UTC
From Facebook:

"EVE Online
So it seems like players are starting to get better at fighting the new level 4 "burner" mission NPCs. Tuesday saw 1 defeated for every 7.55 players defeated. Yesterday it was 1 for every 6.2 players."

Fozzie, what's your ideal burner defeated to player defeated ratio and with that in mind, how much isk should a player make by running one of these missions?
Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE
Amak Boma
Dragon Factory
xX SERENITY Xx
#275 - 2014-09-06 11:20:04 UTC
ok there we go

mining disruption burner (frigate,destroyer,crusier allowed)
you have to kill tanked procurer and skiff npc while they will tackle you and you have 5 minutes before npc tech 2 ships arriveto blow you up.
but lets add some story first

you are informed about illegal mining activity in systeem belonging to our nation intercept any mining operations you can be aware the fleet you encounter may contain shield strenghtened procurer and skiff , couple of retriever kind and skiff kind, be aware that few might have warp scramler and stasis webifier fitted also they will send distress signal and will bring in defense fleet within 10 minutes so hurry up and destroy threat


control tower destruction burner (battleship burner)
what is it? special version of pos unit , some destructible forcefield and sentry guns around it with alot of hp
you have t blow p tower
some history

one of our scouts reported in nearby moon prohibited installation of control tower on nearby moon, investigate the structure and destroy it its kind of small [faction here] control tower small equipped with 10 pulse laser batteries equipped with imperial navy multifrequency crystals two long range warp scramble batteries and two stasis webifier batteries. the pos structure is short but strong shield act quick.


suprise burner (cruiser battlecruiser battleship)
you blow up an orca or rorqual kind that has in their hangar two npc tech 3 ship kind , you will need kill them too

some story
our agent discovered station theft of various ships, some of them managed to get our industrial comand ship/capital ship and loaded it with ships , be aware they are mind-controlled and we dont know what they are we just know they stole also warp scrambler modules an stasis webifier modules also missing energy neutralizers they may have installed them to stolen ships we dont know what weapons they have

cataclysmic burner ( all up to dred/carrier
what to say else an npc carrier/dred to kill it has deployed npc kind of fighters so take with caution

ssome story

out system has been attacked by unidentified huge ship it s equipped with shadow kind so be careful, we belive that they are orbitting something , the very large ship is equipped with heavy energy neutralizers , warp scrambler and stasis webifier scout reports that is very strong and its remote armor repaired by three guardian tech 2 cruiser class
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#276 - 2014-09-08 05:38:50 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Spc One wrote:
This missions are super waste of time.
We killed 15 burners, guess what, EMPTY WRECKS

All of the burners are WAY overpowered, can't be soloed, they can't be killed even with 2 players in group, you need at least 3 players.

Rewards are NONE, nothing drops.

I'll be skiping those missions, even level 1 missions are better to do and have better rewards.
Shocked


I've beaten all of them solo without expensive faction modules, expensive implants or gang links. They're tough but they're definitely not impossible.

Also remember that the mission rewards are dynamically calculated so they will take a few days to correct themselves once the missions hit TQ.


I'd like to know which ship Fozzie used...

Most likely a Daredevil...
Shilyndel
Sheep with Lazers
#277 - 2014-09-08 10:02:30 UTC
After wasting three faction frigs at one of these missions, (one of them using a fit I found on here), at best I got him to 3/4 shield. I'm not completely inept (high skills), but the mission is crazy hard. Based on the money you win and the LP you get, they just aren't worth it. I've lost, I donno, 400mil isk already...for 3mil isk and 13K+ LP. Would rather grind out 3 or 4 missions and actually make money than continue to flush it.
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#278 - 2014-09-09 11:27:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mhari Dson
Spc One wrote:
Chuck Sanussi wrote:
Um.
Maulus 3x damp, DDA and drones, rails.

These npc's are immune to ewar so you can't use damps, ecm...
I tryed it has no effect.


I have to differ with you on jams, had no issues jamming the sansha burner into doing nothing but running away while my corpmates beat 'em down and stole his lunch money. the kit had 3x racial jams + prop mod, armor tanked (used a small aar and T2 adaptive with rigs bieng 1 each of em/th). really easy with the right mix, without it's a wreck maker.

loot was a TS tag (forget what one) a sansha standard s and a meta heat sink
Malcaz
Omni Paradox Securities
#279 - 2014-10-26 09:10:23 UTC
Are the normal missions still removed from the mission pool on sisi?
CCP Lebowski
C C P
C C P Alliance
#280 - 2014-10-27 11:32:06 UTC
Malcaz wrote:
Are the normal missions still removed from the mission pool on sisi?
No, all missions are currently available on Singularity.

CCP Lebowski | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five-0

@CCP_Lebowski