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Fuel blocks! (and CCP Soundwaves wildlife safety advice)

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Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#101 - 2011-12-09 20:03:23 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
OK, so here's what happened.
* snipped the explanation


Regardless of the complaints, it's appreciated that you're taking the time to do it right and have it ready. People would really be shitting their pants to log on Dec. 14th and find their force field down and someone like me looting the pos pinatas that were exposed. Yeah, it's an inconvenience for some, but better than the worst case scenario could have been by a longshot.

That being said... I don't want a switch. I want a friggin balloon. Yep, a big, red friggin balloon tied to a big gawdy glowing red string attached to the top of the POS, floating there inside the forcefield. But this isn't any balloon, this balloon is special. It's the only thing in the forcefield you can actually target. So basically, when you're ready to switch over to fuel niblets, you put some in the fuel hangar and shoot the balloon, releasing a shower of glowing, sparkly confetti signifying that the pos is now on the niblet system and will no longer accept the old PI chunks. Of course, the balloon would pop by itself at the deadline, so you still need to be ready to switch.

Yeah. I'd wait an extra month for that. Lol

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#102 - 2011-12-09 20:04:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Salpun
Updates are updates. Anyone that is on sisi deals with themTwisted.

An additional hour of down time to save a weeks worth of fuel that would have messed up the markets even more is just fine with me. Everyone that will be ready for the change is already and pushing it off just means that some of those ready now will forget to do it when the actual change his in Jan.

If its ready to go on the 14th do it. WH pilots will thank you.

Thanks for the explanation but common this is EVE.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#103 - 2011-12-09 20:06:49 UTC
fido gotran over wrote:
In an effort to create less trouble and save time for the morons that have ignored the coming fuel block changes . . . CCP has managed to screw the vast majority of people who did take the time to convert thier fuel stockpiles to blocks.

I don't get why you would convert this early. I've had the BPO ready, the stockpile ready, but have kept away from production precisely because the date was unknown. Building is actually quite fast, even without any PE research, so there was no need to hurry.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Marsha Mallow
#104 - 2011-12-09 20:08:16 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
OK, so here's what happened.

.....

It's not the way we wanted to do it, but it's the best option we have available to us right now. We're obviously very sorry for the trouble this is causing.


Was ready to rant a bit (just put 2b worth of blocks into production) but meh.

We suspected this wouldn't be a smooth transition. I wasn't personally keen on seeing this rushed, or having to spend time fiddling about close to Christmas with towers.

Thank you for the candid explanantion and apology. Not much more can be done, so no point banging on about it. It's also appreciated that you took the time to explain.

Only suggestion I can make is, next time with any significant change like this, please allow sufficient time and don't rush just to attempt to please the rabble.

Fingers crossed for a smooth transition in January P

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Kylier
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2011-12-09 20:11:01 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
OK, so here's what happened.


It's not the way we wanted to do it, but it's the best option we have available to us right now. We're obviously very sorry for the trouble this is causing.



Also you posted this while I was ranting.

Thanks for the explanation. Makes me feel somewhat better :D
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#106 - 2011-12-09 20:14:32 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
fido gotran over wrote:
In an effort to create less trouble and save time for the morons that have ignored the coming fuel block changes . . . CCP has managed to screw the vast majority of people who did take the time to convert thier fuel stockpiles to blocks.

I don't get why you would convert this early. I've had the BPO ready, the stockpile ready, but have kept away from production precisely because the date was unknown. Building is actually quite fast, even without any PE research, so there was no need to hurry.


Because some people have hundreds of POSes, some of them in far away locations that need blocks in them.

Greyscale, this is really screwing POS people over. You guys should have been more honest with the community earlier. I'm not sure what a workable solution for this is, but you guys should really consider using the extra time you now have to figure out a way to make up for all this hassle. Perhaps you might consider working on that fuel->block conversion script that you didn't have time to get done?

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#107 - 2011-12-09 20:15:37 UTC  |  Edited by: CynoNet Two
CCP Greyscale wrote:
It's not the way we wanted to do it, but it's the best option we have available to us right now. We're obviously very sorry for the trouble this is causing.


OK so you're sorry. Cool. However that apology without action still leaves us just as ****** over as before.

We told you two weeks ago to either
a) automate the handover process to reduce player misery, and/or
b) add an additional fuel bay for fuel blocks only, and/or
c) delay it until a more suitable time rather than rush things and leave players stuck high and dry

You did none of these, and pushed ahead with your date that was optimistic at best (and pure fantasy at worst). Now the EVE community has to spend the holidays un-doing all their recent work, desparately scraping together ISK in an inflated market, rushing around moving supplies, repeat the whole process in 5 weeks time and generally spending more man-hours than you have spent developing this entire project.

So now the only remaining question is:

What is CCP going to - in the next week - to resolve this cluster****?
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#108 - 2011-12-09 20:16:13 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Regardless of the complaints, it's appreciated that you're taking the time to do it right and have it ready. People would really be shitting their pants to log on Dec. 14th and find their force field down and someone like me looting the pos pinatas that were exposed. Yeah, it's an inconvenience for some, but better than the worst case scenario could have been by a longshot.


Pretty much this. If it was something where the failure case was less destructive, we'd have at least considered crossing our fingers and pushing the button anyway. Where the worst-case scenario is that every starbase in New Eden goes offline, though, we're erring on the side of extreme caution. We know this is horribly inconvenient, and it sucks, and it's wasting a lot of people's time and money, but it's better than the Great Starbase Pinata Bash 2011. Everyone here's a bit miffed that we've got to this point, but we console ourselves with the fact that this is a one-time burst of pain that's paving the way for a much smoother ride for large-scale tower operators everywhere.

(Yes, I know it makes your one wormhole tower marginally more difficult to run, and I'm personally very sorry about that, but I ran half a dozen towers for six months and splitting fuel into piles to go into my hauler made me want to lobotomize myself. We shouldn't have that sort of user pain in our game.)
MadMuppet
Critical Mass Inc
#109 - 2011-12-09 20:17:50 UTC
CCP - recommendation: Make fuel bricks reprocess to their component parts until the 24th to try and offset this mess.

-Mad

This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.

"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet
Kaotixs
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#110 - 2011-12-09 20:20:27 UTC
WTF can yall make up your mind. i have already converted all my POS fuel stocks to blocks based on your original date and loaded all my poses with fuel blocks. now i have to go by more of the old fuels and run to all my poses again to take out the blocks and add old fuel. please go back to the old date
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2011-12-09 20:23:28 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Where the worst-case scenario is that every starbase in New Eden goes offline, though, we're erring on the side of extreme caution.


But that would be... hilarious! Pirate

Quote:

...but it's better than the Great Starbase Pinata Bash 2011.


I'm not entirely convinced about this. Purely based on the comedy value!







...okay, seriously, it was always clear that serious advance warning for the drop dead date was absolutely required and as the announcement was not out when block BPOs were seeded, I kinda assumed this would happen ("no block usage until after the holidays"). You could've communicated it all earlier tho...
Kaotixs
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#112 - 2011-12-09 20:24:36 UTC
Two step wrote:
Jack Dant wrote:
fido gotran over wrote:
In an effort to create less trouble and save time for the morons that have ignored the coming fuel block changes . . . CCP has managed to screw the vast majority of people who did take the time to convert thier fuel stockpiles to blocks.

I don't get why you would convert this early. I've had the BPO ready, the stockpile ready, but have kept away from production precisely because the date was unknown. Building is actually quite fast, even without any PE research, so there was no need to hurry.


Because some people have hundreds of POSes, some of them in far away locations that need blocks in them.

Greyscale, this is really screwing POS people over. You guys should have been more honest with the community earlier. I'm not sure what a workable solution for this is, but you guys should really consider using the extra time you now have to figure out a way to make up for all this hassle. Perhaps you might consider working on that fuel->block conversion script that you didn't have time to get done?



agree we are getting screwed now. isk and time wise. at least make the towers burn both fuels for now for those of us that did pay attention and converted all our old fuel stocks
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#113 - 2011-12-09 20:25:52 UTC
Two step wrote:
Greyscale, this is really screwing POS people over. You guys should have been more honest with the community earlier. I'm not sure what a workable solution for this is, but you guys should really consider using the extra time you now have to figure out a way to make up for all this hassle. Perhaps you might consider working on that fuel->block conversion script that you didn't have time to get done?


We don't have a workable solution right now that answers all the issues, that's pretty much the problem. Sometimes that's a thing that happens, unfortunately.

The reason we've not said anything earlier is that our schedule kept slipping a day or two at a time, and it's really hard to know where to draw a firm line. We hit the point this week where the failed test meant another three or four days, and combined with the closeness to the deadline we had to make the decision to push it back. If the server had been available a couple of days earlier and the test had past we could ship on the 14th as we originally planned. We had to announce some sort of timeline when the blog went live, and as soon as we've even hand-waved a date, slipping that date is a pain for everyone. If we'd pushed back the date on Monday morning and then passed the test Monday afternoon, for example, that'd have been a whole load of avoidable user pain that we'd inflicted.

As to the conversion script thing, the reason we've worked so hard to avoid that is because it usually involves multiple upgrade tests to catch all the corner cases (there were ~700 Oneiros with five midslot mods fitted the day after Crucible because of a corner-case issue), and you're seeing right now why we try to avoid upgrade tests. If it went right it'd make the experience a little smoother, sure, but it also adds another huge pile of risk to the deployment. Right now we don't need any more risk, and you don't need us to tell you mid-January that we're slipping the handover another month.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#114 - 2011-12-09 20:27:01 UTC
MadMuppet wrote:
CCP - recommendation: Make fuel bricks reprocess to their component parts until the 24th to try and offset this mess.

-Mad


Fuel blocks should already reprocess to their component parts, although only in multiples of 40.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#115 - 2011-12-09 20:28:24 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Regardless of the complaints, it's appreciated that you're taking the time to do it right and have it ready. People would really be shitting their pants to log on Dec. 14th and find their force field down and someone like me looting the pos pinatas that were exposed. Yeah, it's an inconvenience for some, but better than the worst case scenario could have been by a longshot.


Pretty much this. If it was something where the failure case was less destructive, we'd have at least considered crossing our fingers and pushing the button anyway. Where the worst-case scenario is that every starbase in New Eden goes offline, though, we're erring on the side of extreme caution. We know this is horribly inconvenient, and it sucks, and it's wasting a lot of people's time and money, but it's better than the Great Starbase Pinata Bash 2011. Everyone here's a bit miffed that we've got to this point, but we console ourselves with the fact that this is a one-time burst of pain that's paving the way for a much smoother ride for large-scale tower operators everywhere.

(Yes, I know it makes your one wormhole tower marginally more difficult to run, and I'm personally very sorry about that, but I ran half a dozen towers for six months and splitting fuel into piles to go into my hauler made me want to lobotomize myself. We shouldn't have that sort of user pain in our game.)


I actually disagree with this. Assuming your testing fails, the worst case scenario is exactly what you guys are now proposing, delaying the rollout until later. You *could* have annouced the fuel switch would *probably* happen next week, and if it didn't, it would happen Jan 24th.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
spookydonut
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#116 - 2011-12-09 20:28:52 UTC
Really sounds like you need more/better QA.

Maybe reassign some of the Dust people.
Bring Stabity
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#117 - 2011-12-09 20:29:22 UTC
Yo how about you create another fuel bay that burns Blocks and let people use either or

bam hire me
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#118 - 2011-12-09 20:33:37 UTC
Two step wrote:
I actually disagree with this. Assuming your testing fails, the worst case scenario is exactly what you guys are now proposing, delaying the rollout until later. You *could* have annouced the fuel switch would *probably* happen next week, and if it didn't, it would happen Jan 24th.


I guess this is just a communication breakdown then. We said "a couple of weeks later" in the blog with the intention of giving a firm date later, and I think there was an assumption on our end that, until we actually announced a date, it was always "probably" rather than "definitely" happening before Christmas. Again, sorry about that - we'll try and be more clear about what is and isn't a definite date in future.
spookydonut
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#119 - 2011-12-09 20:35:34 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Two step wrote:
I actually disagree with this. Assuming your testing fails, the worst case scenario is exactly what you guys are now proposing, delaying the rollout until later. You *could* have annouced the fuel switch would *probably* happen next week, and if it didn't, it would happen Jan 24th.


I guess this is just a communication breakdown then. We said "a couple of weeks later" in the blog with the intention of giving a firm date later, and I think there was an assumption on our end that, until we actually announced a date, it was always "probably" rather than "definitely" happening before Christmas. Again, sorry about that - we'll try and be more clear about what is and isn't a definite date in future.


Saying sorry is fine, we understand you're sorry.

You still haven't said what you're going to do to fix the clusterfuck you've created.
CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#120 - 2011-12-09 20:36:00 UTC  |  Edited by: CynoNet Two
CCP Greyscale wrote:

We don't have a workable solution right now that answers all the issues, that's pretty much the problem. Sometimes that's a thing that happens, unfortunately.


a) Run a script to melt all fuelblocks already inside towers back into their materials. This will require a bare minimum of QA as it cannot cause towers to go offline. The worst that can happen is that they don't melt and you try again the next day, or the towers become overfilled for a few hours until the fuel burns off. Or they turn into Rifters, whatever.

b) Spend the remaining time you have before Jan 24th either sorting a final handover script, or pushing in an extra fuel-block-only bay to towers to cover the switch over.

Voila, fixed with a minimal amount of player intervention.

Can I have your job?