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CCP Response Regarding SOMER Blink Concerns

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Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#621 - 2014-08-21 18:56:41 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:
John Ending wrote:
I used to have a sub to Dragon Magazine Smile

Back before TSR got run into the ground and sold to WotC., I did too. And one for Dungeon Adventures.


Nah, Phil and Dixie all the way. I had waaaay too many old issues in my basement

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#622 - 2014-08-21 18:56:56 UTC
dude. now the servers are crashing because people are playing. good job CCP

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Mark Munoz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#623 - 2014-08-21 19:33:50 UTC
KayleInara wrote:
Mark Munoz wrote:

That sucks obviously because it is very common practice to have advertising and sponsorship deals on the web and in applications, but if that's the case then pay your writers real cash, or hope they like to work for nothing.


They are working for nothing. Isk has no value (try paying your utility bills with it).


ISK has no real world value until you trade a real world service for it. That is what RMT is. Trading real world services or money for In game currency. In this case writers are providing real world services for in game currency. Said service is then able to be further monetized by forms of advertising and sponsorships.

If the website creator paid writers ISK but then made no real life currency from it I don't see an issue there.

However my opinion means ****.

My point was just that they shouldn't be paid in ISK period as it causes these gray lines. We will continue as a community to have issues until there is an exact line drawn in the sand.

If that line is drawn as you can pay ISK for services that then can be monetized by a third party then so be it.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#624 - 2014-08-21 20:17:28 UTC
Is it me or has the original issue behind all this been lost sight of?

From what I remember this basically all kicked off over a small number of people trying to raffle off high ISK value items using a similar technique to somer's original GTC bonus whereby everyone who bought GTC via a referral link was given a raffle ticket for a random drawing of the item once the seller had realised a high enough real life money amount via the referral bonus. Which CCP decided to put a stop to causing complaints that it wasn't fair if Somer could operate via the same mechanisms.

As an aside there is no escaping that on some levels TMC operates a slightly more convoluted version of the same mechanism though I don't think there is any profit in going after TMC over it - it does no good for anyone or the health of the game and its 3rd party support services.

The real issue being drawing a line in the sand between support services and even potentially casual use of that mechanism and opening the door to unregulated use of it to farm the game for real money gains.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#625 - 2014-08-21 20:22:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Rroff wrote:
As an aside there is no escaping that on some levels TMC operates a slightly more convoluted version of the same mechanism
…aside from not offering ISK for cash or vice versa, you mean, and keeping a strict separation between in-game and out-of-game transactions, which neatly removes any kind of semblance of RMT and trivially escapes that particular EULA violation?

Quote:
The real issue being drawing a line in the sand between support services and even potentially casual use of that mechanism and opening the door to unregulated use of it to farm the game for real money gains.

What's the issue? The lines are very clearly drawn as it is: you are allowed to offer ISK in exchange for EVE-related community services. You are not allowed to offer ISK in exchange for cash or non-EVE-related services.
crimsonshank
Percussus Resurgo.
Ribbit.
#626 - 2014-08-21 20:39:07 UTC
Fredlah wrote:
crimsonshank wrote:


So the only compensation ever stated from TMC is ISK but your not willing to acknowledge that?

So heres how it looks If I wrote an article about the big dipper according to that image and I got the most views out of everyone who writes for TMC I get Compensated an extra 1bil isk how is the compensation not outlined?


A. You wouldn't get any isk because it's not EVE related

B. You continue to refer to that image which is based on completely old policies and is now out-dated.

How many different people need to point that fact out to you before you stop beating a dead horse?



Until TMC is shut down, Mittens is banned and Goons become Test reborn then I will stop my crusade or until my sub runs out and I quit this game all together.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#627 - 2014-08-21 20:40:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
crimsonshank wrote:
Until TMC is shut down, Mittens is banned and Goons become Test reborn then I will stop my crusade or until my sub runs out and I quit this game all together.

Since you're going to quit, can I have your stuff?

Also, I would question the sense of proclaiming that you're going to engage in a prolonged harassment campaign in a thread on the topic of large-scale EULA infractions.
crimsonshank
Percussus Resurgo.
Ribbit.
#628 - 2014-08-21 20:41:42 UTC
Tippia wrote:
crimsonshank wrote:
Until TMC is shut down, Mittens is banned and Goons become Test reborn then I will stop my crusade or until my sub runs out and I quit this game all together.

Since you're going to quit, can I have your stuff?


No I don't support goon lovers
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#629 - 2014-08-21 20:42:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Tippia wrote:
Rroff wrote:
As an aside there is no escaping that on some levels TMC operates a slightly more convoluted version of the same mechanism
…aside from not offering ISK for cash or vice versa, you mean, and keeping a strict separation between in-game and out-of-game transactions, which neatly removes any kind of semblance of RMT and trivially escapes that particular EULA violation?

Quote:
The real issue being drawing a line in the sand between support services and even potentially casual use of that mechanism and opening the door to unregulated use of it to farm the game for real money gains.

What's the issue? The lines are very clearly drawn as it is: you are allowed to offer ISK in exchange for EVE-related community services. You are not allowed to offer ISK in exchange for cash or non-EVE-related services.


Actually break it down and its merely an artificial separation to convolute what is essentially an analogue of the same mechanic if looked at in its most basic form (I don't personally give a **** I'm really could careless even if TMC is breaking any rules in that regard or not - none the least I read TMC as much as any one).

TBH I don't really care about Somer or TMC and what they might have done wrong or right as such just find it depressing that as much as anything it is also the culmination of the vendettas of a small number of people motivated by far less altruistic concerns for the game and far more motived by either losing ISK to Somer, jealousy or even competition. Its never nice to see such low, mean spirited people effectively win. (Though being eve and all its often something your not far removed from :S).
Hendrick Tallardar
Doomheim
#630 - 2014-08-21 20:47:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Hendrick Tallardar
crimsonshank wrote:
Until TMC is shut down, Mittens is banned and Goons become Test reborn then I will stop my crusade or until my sub runs out and I quit this game all together.


You flailing about making accusations and claims about how they operate, without any supporting evidence other than assumptions and your own extrapolation based off limited information is pretty funny. You admitting you're doing it with the sole intent to get someone banned for not breaking the rules by running a website and paying the contributors in ISK is also funny. You doing it, while crying about ulterior motives of CCP/CSM is just priceless.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#631 - 2014-08-21 20:51:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
crimsonshank wrote:
No I don't support goon lovers

Ok. So can I have your stuff, since you're going to quit (voluntarily or with GM assistance)?

Rroff wrote:
Actually break it down and its merely an artificial separation to convolute what is essentially an analogue of the same mechanic if looked at in its most basic form
No. If you break it down, you notice that there is a hard separation between two unlreated transactions and that there is nothing analogous to the Somer case other than that ISK and cash are involved in both cases. By that logic, having lunch is an analogue: you pay cash to the restaurant/shop for food, and later the same day, not being passed out from hunger, you acquire some ISK.

Again, the fundamental difference with ad-supported community sites is this: those who get ISK aren't providing any cash in exchange. Those who provide cash aren't getting any ISK in exchange. At no point is in-game and out-of-game assets exchanged for each other. Even if the same part hands out ISK and receives cash, it's not RMT unless the two transactions are related in a quid-pro-quo arrangement. Otherwise, living should be considered RMT since everyone playing EVE receives cash and hands out ISK.
Mark Munoz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#632 - 2014-08-21 21:12:27 UTC
Tippia wrote:
crimsonshank wrote:
No I don't support goon lovers

Ok. So can I have your stuff, since you're going to quit (voluntarily or with GM assistance)?

Rroff wrote:
Actually break it down and its merely an artificial separation to convolute what is essentially an analogue of the same mechanic if looked at in its most basic form
No. If you break it down, you notice that there is a hard separation between two unlreated transactions and that there is nothing analogous to the Somer case other than that ISK and cash are involved in both cases. By that logic, having lunch is an analogue: you pay cash to the restaurant/shop for food, and later the same day, not being passed out from hunger, you acquire some ISK.

Again, the fundamental difference with ad-supported community sites is this: those who get ISK aren't providing any cash in exchange. Those who provide cash aren't getting any ISK in exchange. At no point is in-game and out-of-game assets exchanged for each other. Even if the same part hands out ISK and receives cash, it's not RMT unless the two transactions are related in a quid-pro-quo arrangement. Otherwise, living should be considered RMT since everyone playing EVE receives cash and hands out ISK.



That said let me pass something by you.

Say I am sitting on a stock pile of a trillion ISK and I want to "cash out" using the mechanic of a third party website could I not do the following?

Create a website that is run by user generated content.
Advertise in game that I will pay users 1 million ISK each time they add EVE related content to my website.
They would then have to go to my website sit through ads, create EVE related content and submit it to me.
I also advertise this site to the EVE community as a sort of crazy non-sense site with only eve related stuff, drawing, articles, etc.
When users come to see the UGC(user generated content) I serve them ads.
I am paid by my advertising and sponsorship partners for the traffic generated by me paying ISK for this to start.

Lets recap essentially what has happened. I have traded my in game asset of ISK for content on my website, which in turn generates traffic to my website, which in turn gives me real life money.

Would you consider that an appropriate use case?
crimsonshank
Percussus Resurgo.
Ribbit.
#633 - 2014-08-21 21:15:55 UTC
Hendrick Tallardar wrote:


No. The text shows you can get compensated for writing an Astronomy related article but the specific payment isn't outlined. You're making assumptions and conclusions based off limited evidence and simply are filling in the holes to serve your own need. Still though, if you are so upset and so sure it's a giant RMT scheme then contact Support@CCPGames.com

Also the ad hominem doesn't really do you any favors and just shows you're too immature to have a conversation with but hey, I guess that was your goal.



Pump the brakes now you just said payment is in ISK can you make up your mind on the subject
crimsonshank
Percussus Resurgo.
Ribbit.
#634 - 2014-08-21 21:17:06 UTC  |  Edited by: crimsonshank
Hendrick Tallardar wrote:
crimsonshank wrote:
Until TMC is shut down, Mittens is banned and Goons become Test reborn then I will stop my crusade or until my sub runs out and I quit this game all together.


You flailing about making accusations and claims about how they operate, without any supporting evidence other than assumptions and your own extrapolation based off limited information is pretty funny. You admitting you're doing it with the sole intent to get someone banned for not breaking the rules by running a website and paying the contributors in ISK is also funny. You doing it, while crying about ulterior motives of CCP/CSM is just priceless.



You sir are inconsistent in your statements please tell us is the payment in ISK or undifined
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#635 - 2014-08-21 21:20:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Tippia wrote:
No. If you break it down, you notice that there is a hard separation between two unlreated transactions and that there is nothing analogous to the Somer case other than that ISK and cash are involved in both cases. By that logic, having lunch is an analogue: you pay cash to the restaurant/shop for food, and later the same day, not being passed out from hunger, you acquire some ISK.

Again, the fundamental difference with ad-supported community sites is this: those who get ISK aren't providing any cash in exchange. Those who provide cash aren't getting any ISK in exchange. At no point is in-game and out-of-game assets exchanged for each other. Even if the same part hands out ISK and receives cash, it's not RMT unless the two transactions are related in a quid-pro-quo arrangement. Otherwise, living should be considered RMT since everyone playing EVE receives cash and hands out ISK.


Maybe I'm seeing this all wrong (been going on 3 hours sleep a night for about a week) but then if I made a site with little more than just a GTC referral link (and maybe some incidental content) and paid people an amount of ISK to spread the link (indirectly) around to get other people to buy GTC through it its perfectly OK for me to make money from ISK in the game via this system?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#636 - 2014-08-21 21:21:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mark Munoz wrote:
Say I am sitting on a stock pile of a trillion ISK and I want to "cash out" using the mechanic of a third party website could I not do the following?
Not while complying to the EULA, no.
The reason I don't quote your idea is because it doesn't matter — you can't “cash out”.

You are, however, allowed to earn cash for out-of-game services, but the trillion ISK are not relevant to that venture.

crimsonshank wrote:
Pump the brakes now you just said payment is in ISK can you make up your mind on the subject
Where did he say anything of the kind?

Rroff wrote:
Maybe I'm seeing this all wrong (been going on 3 hours sleep a night for about a week) but then if I made a site with little more than just a GTC referral link (and maybe some incidental content) and paid people an amount of ISK to spread the link
Then you'd be paying them for a non-EVE-related service, which would be a no-no.
I'd also venture to guess that some would like your knees to have a chance encounter with a lead pipe for being a spammer, but that's a slightly different issue. P
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#637 - 2014-08-21 21:25:47 UTC
Mark Munoz wrote:
Tippia wrote:
crimsonshank wrote:
No I don't support goon lovers

Ok. So can I have your stuff, since you're going to quit (voluntarily or with GM assistance)?

Rroff wrote:
Actually break it down and its merely an artificial separation to convolute what is essentially an analogue of the same mechanic if looked at in its most basic form
No. If you break it down, you notice that there is a hard separation between two unlreated transactions and that there is nothing analogous to the Somer case other than that ISK and cash are involved in both cases. By that logic, having lunch is an analogue: you pay cash to the restaurant/shop for food, and later the same day, not being passed out from hunger, you acquire some ISK.

Again, the fundamental difference with ad-supported community sites is this: those who get ISK aren't providing any cash in exchange. Those who provide cash aren't getting any ISK in exchange. At no point is in-game and out-of-game assets exchanged for each other. Even if the same part hands out ISK and receives cash, it's not RMT unless the two transactions are related in a quid-pro-quo arrangement. Otherwise, living should be considered RMT since everyone playing EVE receives cash and hands out ISK.



That said let me pass something by you.

Say I am sitting on a stock pile of a trillion ISK and I want to "cash out" using the mechanic of a third party website could I not do the following?

Create a website that is run by user generated content.
Advertise in game that I will pay users 1 million ISK each time they add EVE related content to my website.
They would then have to go to my website sit through ads, create EVE related content and submit it to me.
I also advertise this site to the EVE community as a sort of crazy non-sense site with only eve related stuff, drawing, articles, etc.
When users come to see the UGC(user generated content) I serve them ads.
I am paid by my advertising and sponsorship partners for the traffic generated by me paying ISK for this to start.

Lets recap essentially what has happened. I have traded my in game asset of ISK for content on my website, which in turn generates traffic to my website, which in turn gives me real life money.

Would you consider that an appropriate use case?


If you'd pay people with isk to click on your ads you're basically committing a fraud but not against CCP but against the company whose ads you're selling assuming those people wouldn't touch your ads with a ten feet pole without you giving them isk first or the ad company might not give a rats ass and is just happy raking in the cash from those clicks you just made for them.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#638 - 2014-08-21 21:26:51 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Then you'd be paying them for a non-EVE-related service, which would be a no-no.


Probably wasn't clear but I meant adding in some token incidental eve stuff just to fluff out the link maybe get them to jump through a couple of minor "eve related" content loops.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#639 - 2014-08-21 21:28:22 UTC
Baneken wrote:

If you'd pay people with isk to click on your ads you're basically committing a fraud but not against CCP but against the company whose ads you're selling assuming those people wouldn't touch your ads with a ten feet pole without you giving them isk first or the ad company might not give a rats ass and is just happy raking in the cash from those clicks you just made for them.



On a related note just noticed (atleast for me) noticed on TMC using the PLEX link also activates a click through on the ad beside it, sneaky.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#640 - 2014-08-21 21:28:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Rroff wrote:
Probably wasn't clear but I meant adding in some token incidental eve stuff just to fluff out the link maybe get them to jump through a couple of minor "eve related" content loops.

…but it's still not the EVE-related stuff you're paying them for so it's still a no-no.

Quote:
On a related note just noticed (atleast for me) noticed on TMC using the PLEX link also activates a click through on the ad beside it, sneaky.
Doesn't look like it, no. You might have gotten lucky with the ad and seen one that is sold through the same network.