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CCP Response Regarding SOMER Blink Concerns

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Author
Hendrick Tallardar
Doomheim
#661 - 2014-08-21 23:37:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Hendrick Tallardar
crimsonshank wrote:

This is what TMC is doing regardless of how the Goon lovers wearing Arabian sun goggles make it out to be.


I'm glad you're still so worked up and throwing ad hominem at people explaining to you how it's permitted per CCP's policies and how paying for EVE articles in ISK, and non-EVE articles in a different manner doesn't make it RMT. Let alone Mark admitting his point asserting that it was RMT is actually incorrect at a later point. It's not really that hard to comprehend, please don't be so quick to insult people because you're being proven wrong time and time again.
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#662 - 2014-08-22 00:01:24 UTC
crimsonshank wrote:
This is what TMC is doing regardless of how the Goon lovers wearing Arabian sun goggles make it out to be.

Are there more than 50 shades of dumb?

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise

45thtiger 0109
Pandemic Legion
#663 - 2014-08-22 00:01:32 UTC
Edward Harris wrote:
Sion Kumitomo wrote:
In the handbook of “How Not to Get Permabanned,” not publishing private communications between you and the VP of global sales is on page one. Classic novice mistake.


So Mr. Goon-CSM, just out of curiosity, how would you have reacted if your account got suspended and everything was shut down without any notification? I see it as an act of desperation, since they apparently had an OK from a VP position. I suppose that word means nothing.
Btw, if you want to be official about it - do you see any disclaimer in those statements? I know we use them in our company.

This is still a fault of CCPs lack of internal communication and you are taking it out on a player. Good job.
My trust in CCP has dropped to zero and I'm sure I am not the only one who feels this is an outrage.



Agreed with the above quote.

**You Have to take the good with the bad and the bad with the good.

Welcome to EvE OnLiNe**

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#664 - 2014-08-22 00:13:50 UTC
crimsonshank wrote:
This is what TMC is doing regardless of how the Goon lovers wearing Arabian sun goggles make it out to be.


Get mad.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#665 - 2014-08-22 00:32:04 UTC
Garai Nolen wrote:
Rroff wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Then you'd be paying them for a non-EVE-related service, which would be a no-no.


Probably wasn't clear but I meant adding in some token incidental eve stuff just to fluff out the link maybe get them to jump through a couple of minor "eve related" content loops.


But why would anyone click your referral link then? If you pay me ISK to spam your website in chat, sure, I'll take your ISK. And then I still won't click on your referral link. And neither will anyone who sees the spam, because they get literally nothing out of doing so. It's a lot easier just to go buy a PLEX from CCP or a time code from a site I actually want to support.

So yeah, sure, you could probably do it and it probably would not count as RMT. Essentially you would be the world's first "ISK for EVE chat spam" service. You'd basically just be paying people ISK to spam chat with a link to your site but not actually providing anyone any reason to go to your website or click on your referral link (because you can't, and the moment you do with in-game ISK/items, yes, it becomes RMT).

I'm not quite sure you could consider paying people isk to spam advertisements for your website as not RMT. You would essentially be paying in-game currency for something that is an out-of-game benefit. Besides which, I'm pretty sure there's a clause about spamming ads in-game in the ToS or EULA somewhere.
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#666 - 2014-08-22 00:38:28 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mark Munoz wrote:
I perfectly understand that ISK isn't whats causing the cash earning.
…thus, no RMT, and thus, the ISK isn't actually relevant. The ad network pays for you click-throughs, which is a transaction that is wholly separate from any ISK you might have. You are paying ISK to you contributors, which is a transaction that is wholly separate from any click-through deal you might have. The only reason you're paying anything is because you can't be arsed to populate your site by yourself.

Quote:
I mentioned "Cash out" to get my point across.
The problem is that mentioning it only muddies any point you might have. It implies a connection between the ISK and the cash, when in reality, the connection is between the ISK and your lack of personal effort. If you just wanted to earn some cash, you could do that without the ISK.

I'm not so sure you're not missing the point yourself here, although I understand you do get it. The isk is being used to generate content on an external site which would be a case of RMT. The only reason it isn't considered to be RMT is because CCP has explicitly stated that it is allowed to pay isk for this kind of content, as well as the other stuff like graphic design and such.
Dany Targaryen
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#667 - 2014-08-22 00:46:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Dany Targaryen
Tippia wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
180,000+ members? At $10 a pop?

Good Christ in heaven! Why wasn't it me that thought up that site?
You're forgetting unban/double account payments, platinum upgrades, avatar upgrades, avatar defacements, archive upgrades, ad-free upgrades… Blink


Over the past 10 years I've spent somewhere over $100 on SA, don't regret a cent. I only joined GSF about 2 years ago, so clearly I joined SA just to play Eve.

edit: What the hell is a 120% SRP and how do I get it? It sounds lucrative.
Dany Targaryen
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#668 - 2014-08-22 00:46:40 UTC
Rhes wrote:
crimsonshank wrote:
This is what TMC is doing regardless of how the Goon lovers wearing Arabian sun goggles make it out to be.

Are there more than 50 shades of dumb?


Clearly there are only 42. L2Post.
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
True Reign
#669 - 2014-08-22 00:47:40 UTC
Any site that sells PLEX or time codes is involved in RMT of a type that is allowed and governed by CCP. Sites that pay isk or request isk for certain services are also engaged in something that is close to RMT but that also is allowed and governed by CCP. I say it's close to RMT because CCP has stepped in to set rules for how this kind of transaction can be properly done. CCP has the right to allow players to do these kinds of transactions. Why fight about calling them RMT when the point is that this is CCP's product and CCP can govern how RMT and related types of income are handled. None of these third party sites are doing anything wrong. You can have the opinion that it's wrong if you want but why would you bother when your opinion means nothing unless you are in charge of the game?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#670 - 2014-08-22 00:52:06 UTC
Rhes wrote:
crimsonshank wrote:
This is what TMC is doing regardless of how the Goon lovers wearing Arabian sun goggles make it out to be.

Are there more than 50 shades of dumb?

Yes, lots more. There's ultradumb and infradumb, normally only observed by bees and snakes.
Then there's x-dumb and high-dumb, which generally requires lab equipment to detect and which can cause genetic alterations and cell damage if you're exposed to enough of it.

Derrick Miles wrote:
The isk is being used to generate content on an external site which would be a case of RMT. The only reason it isn't considered to be RMT is because CCP has explicitly stated that it is allowed to pay isk for this kind of content, as well as the other stuff like graphic design and such.
Thus: not RMT, no matter how angry it makes Mr. Pink Poker above.
After all, no in-game-to-out-of-game transaction takes place.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#671 - 2014-08-22 00:55:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Ban Bindy wrote:
Any site that sells PLEX or time codes is involved in RMT
No. None of them are because none of them are trading in any kind of in-game asset. In fact, if you come across one that does, you could probably make a killing with the PLEXes for Snitches program. They sell you codes in exchange for cash. The cash exists outside the game as do the codes. CCP gives you a 30-day subscription time call option (aka PLEX) if you demonstrate the ownership of one of these codes, but the resellers never deal with anything that exists in-game.

Quote:
Sites that pay isk or request isk for certain services are also engaged in something that is close to RMT but that also is allowed and governed by CCP.
It also does not involve any real money. So there's that…
Slicr
#672 - 2014-08-22 01:03:55 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Slicr wrote:
Can you please explain more by what you mean by this comparison?
He means that a call option for 30 days of subscription time (which is what a PLEX actually is), paid for using real cash, is a different kettle of fish compared to in-game assets such as ISK and ships. One shows up in the accountants' spread sheets as liabilities, so there's a good reason to get those off the books — if it also happens to moderate a particularly crazy part of the in-game economy, then that's a neat side-effect.

Quote:
Plex can be bought with in-game isk or out of game real money. If Plex is bought in-game, then it has been paid for down the line with real money at some point.
All in game items (rare ships for example) can be bought with isk, Plex, and/or other in-game items or any combination of the 3 methods. Another method of course is free.

So in essence, real money has the ability to purchase anything in the game.
No. In essence, real money has the ability to purchase a PLEX, period (well, unless you want to break the EULA and get banned, that is), and you can only do that trade with CCP.

If you have a PLEX, you can trade it against other in-game assets, most notably ISK. But you can't skip that crucial step without risking your account — going directly from cash to any other in-game assets (or going from cash to PLEX without going through CCP) is strictly prohibited.


Thanks for your 2 cents but I was asking Falcon his reasoning.

As far as what you have written -- you can try and spin anyway you want the simply fact is:
Plex is bought with real money and is used in the game.
Therefore, anything associated with Plex is also associated with real money.

You have a better chance arguing about minerals not being free then you do with this one - also could argue that your stand on these 2 topics are opposite from each other.

I believe in being Pro-Active as Opposed to Reactive. Reactive tends to be more costly in time and money.

Cherry Yeyo
Doomheim
#673 - 2014-08-22 01:06:42 UTC
I think its safe to sew this one up and lock it. Everyone has had their say and now its just: grr martini dot com

.

Timber Lynn
Adult Beverages
#674 - 2014-08-22 01:12:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Timber Lynn
Remove
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#675 - 2014-08-22 01:15:31 UTC
Slicr wrote:
As far as what you have written -- you can try and spin anyway you want the simply fact is:
Plex is bought with real money and is used in the game.
…and they're not RMT for the reasons described. No in-game items are being traded for real money.

Quote:
Therefore, anything associated with Plex is also associated with real money.
“Real money” is something vastly different than RMT. Anything associated with your local grocery store is also associated with real money. Anything associated with having a job is associated with real money. And yet, buying some poptarts on your way back from work is not RMT, even though it's associated with real money twice over.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#676 - 2014-08-22 01:18:05 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Slicr wrote:
As far as what you have written -- you can try and spin anyway you want the simply fact is:
Plex is bought with real money and is used in the game.
Therefore, anything associated with Plex is also associated with real money.

And the essential part of RMT is that it's a transaction involving real money, and an in-game asset (excluding PLEX) or ISK.
Selling PLEX through affiliate links and so forth is a transaction of real money with no isk component. Therefore it's not RMT.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#677 - 2014-08-22 01:24:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Just for those that are hard of understanding

Cash>Time Code>PLEX>isk/gametime, is allowed.
Isk/PLEX/ingame Items>Cash, is not.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Argus Sorn
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#678 - 2014-08-22 01:27:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Argus Sorn
Is there going to be some response regarding this incident and the praise/rewards/compliments/endorsements that SOMER received from several of the community devs?

I am not looking to reopen old wounds but the community brought the nature and ethics of SOMER as an entity up over a year ago, and in response the community devs defended and praised them. Below are just a few examples:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3656860#post3656860
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3660642#post3660642
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3725799#post3725799
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3722431#post3722431


We were assured that they were basically trustworthy, reliable and on the up and up - yet it took a few of us no more than 15 minutes or so of examining their promotions to realize last year that they were RMT'ing.

I guess what I am saying is this - CCP should be investigating how this entity, which you clearly state has never had a business arrangement with CCP (despite being charged with handing out prizes to the community on CCP's behalf), managed to garner the trust and support of CCP devs. Either there was overt wrong doing (which I do not necessarily believe) or, more likely, this is more a matter of staff education regarding the complicated conflict of interest issues that can ensue when you engage in the sort of support that devs gave SOMER. In short: you guys were played.

So how do you plan to prevent this from happening in the future? I've never even really seen an acknowledgement from anyone at CCP that the sort of support and praise granted to SOMER was inappropriate - yet clearly this incident has proven that it was.

The lesson isn't that SOMER was 'bad'. Instead, the real lesson here is that despite what you think you know - the wrongdoing may always be there - and so outside of specific, legally and ethically vetted business agreements, CCP should not be endorsing a 3rd party, especially when in reality, that third party does not even exist outside of the game structure (they, aside form their RMT, are not a support or fan site - they were just an eve corporation, making isk).

Those posts were over one year ago, and CCP told SOMER to cease, and we would have thought that lessons were learned. But then this happens, and the mails from the VP show the problem persisted and indeed seems to be endemic at CCP. SOMER was NEVER a business entity - they were players of the game, with a history of violating the EULA, yet one of your VP's engaged them as if they are above the game, not a part of it. That is a serious problem.

I for one would like to see 'words' from Hilmar (as well as Lisa) on this - because I think it is is genuinely that concerning to me, as well as others, that the folks that are supposed to be unbiased adjudicators of the game decided to choose winners and losers and that even after being shown the folly of that one year ago, it continued. And once again realize that it was wrong whether or not SOMER turned out to be a bad egg.

I hope that CCP, whether they make public further statements about the business ethics being brought into question here or not, takes a hard look at the root cause of this problem and further educates all of their staff on maintaining appropriate boundaries between them and the players in the future. Although I do like to think we deserve and are worthy of, a statement or two on this issue.

Lastly, thank you for your prompt and appropriate response in this matter, you certainly deserve praise for that. I do not mean to take away from that in any way, but I do think that there are issues of business ethics and conflict of interest that have been raised that go beyond this one incident. I hope those issues receive the same prompt and proper response. Thank you.
De'Veldrin
Adversity.
Hisec Miners
#679 - 2014-08-22 01:37:36 UTC
crimsonshank wrote:
Fredlah wrote:
crimsonshank wrote:


So the only compensation ever stated from TMC is ISK but your not willing to acknowledge that?

So heres how it looks If I wrote an article about the big dipper according to that image and I got the most views out of everyone who writes for TMC I get Compensated an extra 1bil isk how is the compensation not outlined?


A. You wouldn't get any isk because it's not EVE related

B. You continue to refer to that image which is based on completely old policies and is now out-dated.

How many different people need to point that fact out to you before you stop beating a dead horse?



Until TMC is shut down, Mittens is banned and Goons become Test reborn then I will stop my crusade or until my sub runs out and I quit this game all together.

So it's a personal thing. Good, then we can safely ignore you.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.

Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#680 - 2014-08-22 01:43:11 UTC

Relevant:

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.