These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Should Super-capitals be immune to Warp Scramblers from subcaps.

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#1 - 2014-08-20 22:38:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
Supercapitals (that being Supercarriers and Titans) have the following text applied in their role bonus.

"Immune to all forms of Electronic Warfare"

Electronic Warfare qualifies as the following:

Sensor Dampening
Webifiers
ECM
Tracking Disruption
Warp Scramblers
Warp Disruptors

These are the only ships that have a pure immunity to these effects. I am not disputing the immunity to Sensor Dampening, ECM etc, but specifically to Warp Scrambers and Warp Disruptors.

Currently Deep Space Transports have a Warp Core Strength (+2) as a default stat. The Venture Frigate also has this stat. This means that to tackle a Deep Space Transport/Venture, you must hit it with at minimum, 3 points of warp disruption (a single disruptor or scrambler will not stop the ship from warping off). So why couldn't super-capitals have that type of resistance too instead of a pure immunity to warp scrambers/disruptors?

To tackle a Supercapital in Lowsec requires a Heavy Interdictors with a infinite script, nothing else can tackle it. In Nullsec, a Heavy or Light Interdictor or a Bubble can tackle a Supercapital/Titan. Why not instead of just relegating a pure immunity, put a strength on it (for example, assigning a Warp Core Strength of 6 to stop a Super-capital from warping/jumping out, or 10 points to stop a Titan from warping/jumping out). These are not specific amounts, just a reference point for this thread.

The question:


  • Should the immunity from warp scramblers and warp disruptions be removed from super-capitals and be replaced with a Warp Core Strength.


It is an honest question, and I am looking for credible arguments for both sides of the argument. If you believe that it should not be possible for a group of subcaps to tackle a super, please explain why. If you believe that it should be impossible for a group of subcaps to tackle a supercarrier and the current status is fine, please explain why also.

If you have examples, please present them also.

Yaay!!!!
TheMercenaryKing
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-08-20 22:40:11 UTC
no, they shouldn't. They shouldn't even be immune to many forms of EWAR, just a high resistance to it.
Mijou Star
ICE is Coming to EVE
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2014-08-20 22:43:07 UTC
Going with no....but only if they are able to dock.
Radelix Cisko
JUMP DRIVE ACTIVE
#4 - 2014-08-20 22:43:17 UTC
In the type of fight where a SC or titan show up, I imagine that you would have a Heavy Interdictor nearby.


soooo whats the problem?

Despite my posting prowess I really am terrible at this game
My Little Pyongyang
Doomheim
#5 - 2014-08-20 22:45:39 UTC
Radelix Cisko wrote:
In the type of fight where a SC or titan show up, I imagine that you would have a Heavy Interdictor nearby.


soooo whats the problem?



You would imagine that, wouldn't you?

Not a HIC in sight when PL drops supers on a solo cyclone.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#6 - 2014-08-20 22:48:05 UTC
I would support this idea.

+15-20 Warp Core Strength isn't too unreasonable.

It means an unprepared medium sized gang can be a credible threat to a random supercapital hotdrop... and supers can't just nuke 2 or 3 ships and then GTFO laughing.

Of course... this would mean that larger groups would be more leery about hotdropping in the first place and would only do so with an even more overwhelming advantage than before.

Then again... that would not be much of a change from the current meta.

How did you Veterans start?
Radelix Cisko
JUMP DRIVE ACTIVE
#7 - 2014-08-20 22:48:13 UTC
My Little Pyongyang wrote:
Radelix Cisko wrote:
In the type of fight where a SC or titan show up, I imagine that you would have a Heavy Interdictor nearby.


soooo whats the problem?



You would imagine that, wouldn't you?

Not a HIC in sight when PL drops supers on a solo cyclone.



See thats just funny

Also PL = all caps, all the time

Despite my posting prowess I really am terrible at this game
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#8 - 2014-08-20 23:01:02 UTC
I'm going to pull a little sacrilege here and play the lore card.

Supercaps have incredibly complex and high grade electronics systems throughout their structure, required to even make their existence feasible. The idea that any old sub-cap ship with an off-the-shelf point has the processing power or sheer capacitor strength to prevent a super from doing anything electronic is just kind of silly.

I imagine it being somewhat like a grade-schooler attempting to stop a loaded barge traveling at full tilt with a lasso.

Really, which of the dozens of subprocessors of the navigation computer should your sub-cap warp scrambler focus on?

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2014-08-20 23:10:25 UTC
My Little Pyongyang wrote:
Radelix Cisko wrote:
In the type of fight where a SC or titan show up, I imagine that you would have a Heavy Interdictor nearby.


soooo whats the problem?



You would imagine that, wouldn't you?

Not a HIC in sight when PL drops supers on a solo cyclone.



aw boohoo.


boohoo.







as for the OP:

"Hey, I got an idea, let's make HICs even more irrelevant than they are now!".

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Eldwinn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2014-08-20 23:18:10 UTC
+1. Yes, simply put.
Rabe Raptor
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#11 - 2014-08-20 23:19:20 UTC
Yeah because supercaps need a buff.

Together we can make Highsec a better place! www.lawofhighsec.com

Read it, share it, learn it, quote it, memorize it,  live it, breathe it!
Regnag Leppod
Doomheim
#12 - 2014-08-20 23:22:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Regnag Leppod
Short answer: no.

Long answer: The only way that would be remotely acceptable for something like this to take place would be if there were power requirements and scaling with ship size. For example: You have 4 or 5 tiers of scramblers, each one taking higher PG/CPU (just like guns), the bigger your target, the more power you need to keep it from warping off, thus making it impossible for frigates to tackle a super or titan.

This does not mean that said "long answer" is a good idea.

*edit* This is based on the idea that immunity is replaced with something. I do not feel a frigate should be able to tackle a super.
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2014-08-20 23:39:49 UTC
The answer to your question is: no.

The EWAR immunity on supers is working as intended. You need to be somewhat elite (have a lot of SP or even a holder alt with a lot of SP as well as a lot of ISK) in order to fly these things. They should be tough to tackle. As it currently stands, any super carrier or titan that makes even the slightest misstep does indeed get tackled and killed. By who? By super elite tacklers like Pandemic Legion's super cap hunting teams.

Basically, since you need to be senior and successful to fly the thing, it should only be able to be tackled by senior and elite enemies. Your proposal would make a 30-billion ISK super carrier able to be tackled by any given swarm of Brave Newbies.

The fact that supers can only be tackled by bubbles and HICs and considerable skill is needed to keep those bubbles up and HICs alive makes perfect sense and any modification would ruin the ships, either by making them untacklable by anything at all or by making them tacklable by anybody.

There's a lot about supers that could be changed. The tackle portion is exactly where it needs to be in my opinion.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2014-08-21 00:14:43 UTC
HICS = Racial Cruiser V, Spaceship Command V, Propulsion Jamming V and Graviton Physics IV

Plus about 200 mill or so for the HIC itself.

Maybe 3 months training plus 200 mill, not a big ask if you are having issues with people hot-dropping supers on you.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#15 - 2014-08-21 00:26:19 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
The answer to your question is: no.

The EWAR immunity on supers is working as intended. You need to be somewhat elite (have a lot of SP or even a holder alt with a lot of SP as well as a lot of ISK) in order to fly these things. They should be tough to tackle. As it currently stands, any super carrier or titan that makes even the slightest misstep does indeed get tackled and killed. By who? By super elite tacklers like Pandemic Legion's super cap hunting teams.

Basically, since you need to be senior and successful to fly the thing, it should only be able to be tackled by senior and elite enemies. Your proposal would make a 30-billion ISK super carrier able to be tackled by any given swarm of Brave Newbies.

The fact that supers can only be tackled by bubbles and HICs and considerable skill is needed to keep those bubbles up and HICs alive makes perfect sense and any modification would ruin the ships, either by making them untacklable by anything at all or by making them tacklable by anybody.

There's a lot about supers that could be changed. The tackle portion is exactly where it needs to be in my opinion.


But but but I don't want to put an effort in to kill things I want them handed to me on a plate... :(
Keisha Tachyon
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2014-08-21 00:50:11 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
The answer to your question is: no.

The EWAR immunity on supers is working as intended. You need to be somewhat elite (have a lot of SP or even a holder alt with a lot of SP as well as a lot of ISK) in order to fly these things. They should be tough to tackle. As it currently stands, any super carrier or titan that makes even the slightest misstep does indeed get tackled and killed. By who? By super elite tacklers like Pandemic Legion's super cap hunting teams.

Basically, since you need to be senior and successful to fly the thing, it should only be able to be tackled by senior and elite enemies. Your proposal would make a 30-billion ISK super carrier able to be tackled by any given swarm of Brave Newbies.

The fact that supers can only be tackled by bubbles and HICs and considerable skill is needed to keep those bubbles up and HICs alive makes perfect sense and any modification would ruin the ships, either by making them untacklable by anything at all or by making them tacklable by anybody.

There's a lot about supers that could be changed. The tackle portion is exactly where it needs to be in my opinion.


But but but I don't want to put an effort in to kill things I want them handed to me on a plate... :(


If they made supercapitals holdable with scrams/disruptors by giving them a warpcore strength Bonus like the transports, of adequare strength (20 perhaps) it would not be a silver plate. You would still need that many points. And you need to Keep them up the entire time untill you blow up the super. Doing that requires quite some ships. Probably not much less Organisation/batphoning than killing a super right now.
Xpaulusx
Naari LLC
#17 - 2014-08-21 01:56:17 UTC
Supercaps are Theater Wide Strategic Weapons meant to defend or attack Sovereignty, in no way, shape or form should a T1 frig or other wise be able to tackle a 30+ Billion isk weapon, working as intended.

......................................................
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#18 - 2014-08-21 02:11:40 UTC
Xpaulusx wrote:
Supercaps are Theater Wide Strategic Weapons meant to defend or attack Sovereignty, in no way, shape or form should a T1 frig or other wise be able to tackle a 30+ Billion isk weapon, working as intended.


apparently removing ewar immunity means that a titan must be tackled by a t1 frigate with a single warp disruptor

it's not like warp core strength is a thing in eve

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2014-08-21 02:20:40 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Grimpak wrote:
"Hey, I got an idea, let's make HICs even more irrelevant than they are now!".

They wouldn't be irrelevant. The HIC is still the only ship with the infinite point. Removing the ewar immunity and adding an arbitrarily large amount of warp core strength means you'd need a lot of points to hold down one super, or one HIC.

It really wouldn't be much different than now.

Frankly the only ewar I can see being a problem vs. supers and titans is sensor dampening. ECM is unlikely to work given a high sensor strength, tracking is already pretty bad on titans and supers would still be unaffected, and target painting is pointless given their already huge signature radius.

Edit: Actually stasis webifying could be a problem too, since inevitably it would be used to make moving titans and supers even safer than it is now. That Bat Country titan loss recently? Would not have happened if you could web them.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2014-08-21 02:35:00 UTC
Personally I think the issue is just the nature of jump drives and the relative ease of capping up to jump point

Perhaps make jumping a spool up activity rather than a check, check, check jump (or in case of titan attempt to bridge)

Alternately bring more neuts people, neuts suck and are fun at sucking off the cap of others.
Of course then you have have capital capacitor modules that magic cap out of nowhere to jump chain, so perhaps make the capital modules less magicky and require triage in order to violate conservation of energy.
12Next page