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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Astral Jesus
Doomheim
#1401 - 2014-08-12 10:40:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Astral Jesus
Kagura Nikon wrote:
It is not unique. It is just a pocket dominix that can do all that the dominix can offensive wise. while all other hacs are far less powerful damage projection or dps wise than their racial battleships.

Ishtar is simply overpowered because 125m drone bay was created at a time where drone boats had only half their damage from drone bayd, sicne no drone damage mods meant usign only drones was not enough.


It's a cruiser that can use sentry drones and it's not unique? It's a dedicated drone cruiser and it's not unique? It's pretty goddamn unique. There is no cruiser like it. If you could tone down how OP it was while maintaining its fairly unique playstyle that'd be great. The only suggestion I really liked the sound of ITT was making the Ishtar stay a short distance from the sentries for them to remain functional.

But it is unique. That's the source of all it's problems. It's too unique, if anything.
Nenwe
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1402 - 2014-08-12 11:15:50 UTC
This did not exactly solve the problem with Ishtar The damned thing still does even with this change Battleship amount of DPS and compared to other HACs is still overpowered (drop ishtars raw dps by 30-40% and then it would be fine)
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1403 - 2014-08-12 11:35:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Astral Jesus wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
It is not unique. It is just a pocket dominix that can do all that the dominix can offensive wise. while all other hacs are far less powerful damage projection or dps wise than their racial battleships.

Ishtar is simply overpowered because 125m drone bay was created at a time where drone boats had only half their damage from drone bayd, sicne no drone damage mods meant usign only drones was not enough.


It's a cruiser that can use sentry drones and it's not unique? It's a dedicated drone cruiser and it's not unique? It's pretty goddamn unique. There is no cruiser like it. If you could tone down how OP it was while maintaining its fairly unique playstyle that'd be great. The only suggestion I really liked the sound of ITT was making the Ishtar stay a short distance from the sentries for them to remain functional.

But it is unique. That's the source of all it's problems. It's too unique, if anything.



All vexor line are dedicated drone cruisers and the arbitrator line to a lesser degree.

They are not unique. They are blantly overpowered. 125m bandwidth is worth 5 times more than it was 5 years ago.

An ishtar can deal MORE dps with MORE accuracy at more range than most battleships can . That is COMPLETELY BROKEN!!!

How would you feel if the vagabond had a 50% falloff bonus per level and 40% damage per level ? Because that is what woudl take for it to get CLOSE to ishtar damage application.

Now heavy drones are not a problem, because they are more easily evaded and cannto instantly project damage at 70 km...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#1404 - 2014-08-12 11:36:20 UTC
Astral Jesus wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
It is not unique. It is just a pocket dominix that can do all that the dominix can offensive wise. while all other hacs are far less powerful damage projection or dps wise than their racial battleships.

Ishtar is simply overpowered because 125m drone bay was created at a time where drone boats had only half their damage from drone bayd, sicne no drone damage mods meant usign only drones was not enough.


It's a cruiser that can use sentry drones and it's not unique? It's a dedicated drone cruiser and it's not unique? It's pretty goddamn unique. There is no cruiser like it. If you could tone down how OP it was while maintaining its fairly unique playstyle that'd be great. The only suggestion I really liked the sound of ITT was making the Ishtar stay a short distance from the sentries for them to remain functional.

But it is unique. That's the source of all it's problems. It's too unique, if anything.


Gallente Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage
7.5% bonus to Drone optimal range and tracking speed

Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed
Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):
5000m bonus to Drone operation range
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed

It unique in getting a bonus that matches it bigger cousin very closely. Its heavy drone bonus is the extra. The issue is with sentries. And so, taking one example, why doesnt my Munnin get a bonus to every artillery type, small medium and large? Why does it not get to fit every one?

It would be stupidly OP of course! It would get damage like a Maelstom ... it wouldnt be the crap it is now. It wouldnt be unique becuase there would now be two cruisers that match their batlleship cousins.
umbora
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1405 - 2014-08-12 14:55:56 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
The Vagabond continues to be a **** kiter with only a Niche for super linked 100MN fits or killing bads.

Drop Shield boost bonus for second falloff bonus TIA.


there are valid shield boost fits for the Vagabond

who's AWOXing who
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1406 - 2014-08-12 15:04:42 UTC
umbora wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
The Vagabond continues to be a **** kiter with only a Niche for super linked 100MN fits or killing bads.

Drop Shield boost bonus for second falloff bonus TIA.


there are valid shield boost fits for the Vagabond



Valid yes.. but a second falloff bonus would be waaay more amazing (specialization shoudl be the HAC concept)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Rashnu Gorbani
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1407 - 2014-08-12 15:18:52 UTC
Gentle huh, I don't get the point of rollercoaster kind of boosts and nerfs. Is it something just to help pass the years...
Inslander Wessette
Unleashed' Fury
The Initiative.
#1408 - 2014-08-12 15:38:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Inslander Wessette
Mylea Chanlin wrote:
Frankly, I think we've done well enough to the Ishtar.

In the last 12 months we've seen several consecutive nerfs to the Ishtar and its weapon systems.


  • Sentry optimals were (deservedly so) severely reduced.
  • Garde tracking and damage were recently reduced, in turn reducing the maximum theoretical and applied damage of the weapon system.
  • The upcoming changes provide a significant reduction in the effectiveness of the Ishtar speed tank.
  • The upcoming changes provide a total loss of 12.5% on tracking, optimal, and falloff.


These are all big changes. I'm a drone pilot myself, and I'm not opposed to many of these changes. I do think, though, that we have done well enough for now, and should sit tight and see what happens before neutering the Ishtar to the point of obsolescence.

Very many of the "Do this to harm the Ishtar" comments can be summed up simply as "Do this to harm the ship/weapon/style that I didn't train for." I sense a prevailing attitude of selfishness in many of the comments, and urge a more objective look at data instead of the "recommendations" of the CSM and the attitudes of the self-serving.



As a solo pvper in low sec. i do not think its drone weapon system alone. I think its the fact that the ishtar has 5 mids and u cant really 1 v 1 on the same category against a triple DDA + Triple extender + T2 field extender fit ishtar . The passive armor and the active armor fits have atleast certain drawbacks( like reduction of speed and cap dependancy) but the shield buffer version jus has around 14k of raw shields with 700 dps and its very hard to b killed by another HAC or CRecon ( Vaga, Curse, Sac, zealot, eagle, deimos) which is really not being balanced cos u cant neut it , u cant shut down its weapons , u cant speed tank it ( may b now atleast ceptors can live thru a tackle) and after all this tank and dps it can still fit a prop and prop jamming module and it regens shields at 100/s !!!!!!!!!! . Gallente cross fits to shields shud make em glass cannons not a nuclear powered titanium tank . Especially not when the caldari and Minmatar HAC versions which are supposed to support shield system are trash compared to ishtar.

It needs atleast - 1 or even -2 medslots to be put in place with other HACs
Zeb Riu
Trauma Ward
#1409 - 2014-08-12 16:41:39 UTC
Copied into thread due to orders from the thought police see ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=365769&find=unread )

Base speeds of other HACs:

ArrowGal
Deimos - 230

ArrowCaldari
Eagle - 190
Cerberus - 220

ArrowMinmatar
Munin - 230
Vagabond- 295

ArrowAmarr
Zealot - 210
Sacrilege - 200

Drum roll...... With the Ishtar being reduced 185.

With this change It will become tthe slowest HAC in the game. Not to mention all other HAC are keeping their bonuses intact. So now the isthar is the slowest HAC with the worst offensive damage projection and least bonuses by percentage. Should an Ishtar really be slower than a sacrilege (A much stronger vessel tank wise.) Without a buff to compensate for the loss in speed and damage projection the ship with extremely sub-optimal in nearly ever situation with either Shield nano or Armor fit. This is a classic overnerf from CCP when responding to whine IMO. If any Gallente ship needs nerf it's the Talos, which vastly out-preforms the other BCs of it's tier in anti-frigate ability, and raw damage output a dangerous combination, but Rise love that ship so it's balanced.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1410 - 2014-08-12 16:44:03 UTC
Like I said in the other thread, run numbers showing DPS/range/application and be thankful it's this light a nerf.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1411 - 2014-08-12 16:44:37 UTC
what that shows is that the eagle is still far too slow .. and the vaga is too fast ...

ishtar needs a much stronger nerf too its sentry use/dronebay not just a minor speed nerf that doesnt really address the issue

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Wrymn Wrymnn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1412 - 2014-08-12 16:45:52 UTC
Still only good PVP ships are ishtar and gallente battleships.

Ishtar and Dominix everywhere.

I dont even see amarr or minmatar ships.....


Why don`t change that? That the uglies ships (potatoe dominix) are the strongest.
Zurin Arctus
Trauma Ward
#1413 - 2014-08-12 16:47:17 UTC
Inslander Wessette wrote:
Mylea Chanlin wrote:
Frankly, I think we've done well enough to the Ishtar.

In the last 12 months we've seen several consecutive nerfs to the Ishtar and its weapon systems.


  • Sentry optimals were (deservedly so) severely reduced.
  • Garde tracking and damage were recently reduced, in turn reducing the maximum theoretical and applied damage of the weapon system.
  • The upcoming changes provide a significant reduction in the effectiveness of the Ishtar speed tank.
  • The upcoming changes provide a total loss of 12.5% on tracking, optimal, and falloff.


These are all big changes. I'm a drone pilot myself, and I'm not opposed to many of these changes. I do think, though, that we have done well enough for now, and should sit tight and see what happens before neutering the Ishtar to the point of obsolescence.

Very many of the "Do this to harm the Ishtar" comments can be summed up simply as "Do this to harm the ship/weapon/style that I didn't train for." I sense a prevailing attitude of selfishness in many of the comments, and urge a more objective look at data instead of the "recommendations" of the CSM and the attitudes of the self-serving.



As a solo pvper in low sec. i do not think its drone weapon system alone. I think its the fact that the ishtar has 5 mids and u cant really 1 v 1 on the same category against a triple DDA + Triple extender + T2 field extender fit ishtar . The passive armor and the active armor fits have atleast certain drawbacks( like reduction of speed and cap dependancy) but the shield buffer version jus has around 14k of raw shields with 700 dps and its very hard to b killed by another HAC or CRecon ( Vaga, Curse, Sac, zealot, eagle, deimos) which is really not being balanced cos u cant neut it , u cant shut down its weapons , u cant speed tank it ( may b now atleast ceptors can live thru a tackle) and after all this tank and dps it can still fit a prop and prop jamming module and it regens shields at 100/s !!!!!!!!!! . Gallente cross fits to shields shud make em glass cannons not a nuclear powered titanium tank . Especially not when the caldari and Minmatar HAC versions which are supposed to support shield system are trash compared to ishtar.

It needs atleast - 1 or even -2 medslots to be put in place with other HACs


If you do not completely smash a solo nanotar in a vagabond, deimos, or ONI, you are provably bad at this game. The Ishtar is a mediocre to poor HAC unless you use it with a very specific cookie-cutter nano sentry fit.

You are hyperventilating because you are upset about dying to Ishtars. They are no cheesier than any other range DPS HAC gets when flying in an enormous logi blob. Get better at the game and get over it.
Rastin Crysknife
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1414 - 2014-08-12 16:47:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Rastin Crysknife
Regarding the Ishtar:

The fundamental problem with the Ishtar right now is the fact that it can change engagement profiles on the fly in a way that no other HAC is capable of. This is not due entirely to the Ishtar bonuses, but rather, it is mostly due to the fact that the Ishtar can carry 2-3 battle-ready variants of it's primary weapon system (Heavy Drones and Sentries).

Therefore, I present the idea that instead of attacking the Ishtar's bonuses and risk making it useless, we address its exceptional adaptability in the field by reducing the size of its drone bay from its current 375 (3 flights of heavies/sentries) to somewhere in the range of 150 (1 flight of heavies/sentries + 1 flight lights). even 175 or 200 drone bay would prevent the rather blatant abuse of drone mechanics we currently see in the game while still allowing the pilot to keep spare drones available in case parts of the first flight get destroyed.

This change will help retain the Ishtar's raw power and general versatility while still forcing pilots to choose an engagement profile for a given fight.

With this change, it might be justified to restore the Ishtar's speed and other attributes.

Bob is always present, watching you traverse space accessable only though wormholes. He is the constant reminder that there is always someone watching you, waiting for your moment of weakness to appear and claim his toll for collecting the bounty of his realm.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1415 - 2014-08-12 16:48:28 UTC
Zeb Riu wrote:
Copied into thread due to orders from the thought police see ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=365769&find=unread )

Base speeds of other HACs:

ArrowGal
Deimos - 230

ArrowCaldari
Eagle - 190
Cerberus - 220

ArrowMinmatar
Munin - 230
Vagabond- 295

ArrowAmarr
Zealot - 210
Sacrilege - 200

Drum roll...... With the Ishtar being reduced 185.

With this change It will become tthe slowest HAC in the game. Not to mention all other HAC are keeping their bonuses intact. So now the isthar is the slowest HAC with the worst offensive damage projection and least bonuses by percentage. Should an Ishtar really be slower than a sacrilege (A much stronger vessel tank wise.) Without a buff to compensate for the loss in speed and damage projection the ship with extremely sub-optimal in nearly ever situation with either Shield nano or Armor fit. This is a classic overnerf from CCP when responding to whine IMO. If any Gallente ship needs nerf it's the Talos, which vastly out-preforms the other BCs of it's tier in anti-frigate ability, and raw damage output a dangerous combination, but Rise love that ship so it's balanced.


Since when is a full set of sentry considered the worst offensive damage projection? If you buff it to compensate for the nerf, you are not really nerfing it and it does need a nerf.
Zurin Arctus
Trauma Ward
#1416 - 2014-08-12 16:53:19 UTC
Wrymn Wrymnn wrote:
Still only good PVP ships are ishtar and gallente battleships.

Ishtar and Dominix everywhere.

I dont even see amarr or minmatar ships.....


Why don`t change that? That the uglies ships (potatoe dominix) are the strongest.



Go away, autist. Geddons are more popular than they have ever been, and the tier 1 and 2 Minmatar battleships are overutilized compared to the domi and mega.
Higgs Maken
The Metal Box Company
#1417 - 2014-08-12 16:56:47 UTC
Zeb Riu wrote:
Copied into thread due to orders from the thought police see ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=365769&find=unread )

Base speeds of other HACs:

ArrowGal
Deimos - 230

ArrowCaldari
Eagle - 190
Cerberus - 220

ArrowMinmatar
Munin - 230
Vagabond- 295

ArrowAmarr
Zealot - 210
Sacrilege - 200

Drum roll...... With the Ishtar being reduced 185.

With this change It will become tthe slowest HAC in the game. Not to mention all other HAC are keeping their bonuses intact. So now the isthar is the slowest HAC with the worst offensive damage projection and least bonuses by percentage. Should an Ishtar really be slower than a sacrilege (A much stronger vessel tank wise.) Without a buff to compensate for the loss in speed and damage projection the ship with extremely sub-optimal in nearly ever situation with either Shield nano or Armor fit. This is a classic overnerf from CCP when responding to whine IMO. If any Gallente ship needs nerf it's the Talos, which vastly out-preforms the other BCs of it's tier in anti-frigate ability, and raw damage output a dangerous combination, but Rise love that ship so it's balanced.


you miss
Jiro Kobaiashi wrote:
I can only add here, what i have seen and expirienced so far by myself:

Ishtar
Even if as a gallente all 5 HAC Pilot i kinda loved it, is indeed OP. a 50 man Ishtar gang and even less makes a BS fleet hide in their POSes in Nullsec atm, even with the Battleship guys in far higher numbers. The sentry volley just alphas the Battleships ... The recieving end is a bitter thing.Ugh


from an earlier post.


The speed change means nothing to Ishtar haters, because drone assist still works. They will continue to campaign for nerf because drone assist sentry alpha their ship. In a normal game balance POV damage and defence is both taken into consideration, but for them they are only looking at damage and damage alone because that fit their cause.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1418 - 2014-08-12 17:03:13 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
I'd trade my Cerberus speed for the poor old ishtars if the damage also swapped.


And your sorry arses would be crying on the forums in a heartbeat
Inslander Wessette
Unleashed' Fury
The Initiative.
#1419 - 2014-08-12 17:07:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Inslander Wessette
Zurin Arctus wrote:
Inslander Wessette wrote:
Mylea Chanlin wrote:
Frankly, I think we've done well enough to the Ishtar.

In the last 12 months we've seen several consecutive nerfs to the Ishtar and its weapon systems.


  • Sentry optimals were (deservedly so) severely reduced.
  • Garde tracking and damage were recently reduced, in turn reducing the maximum theoretical and applied damage of the weapon system.
  • The upcoming changes provide a significant reduction in the effectiveness of the Ishtar speed tank.
  • The upcoming changes provide a total loss of 12.5% on tracking, optimal, and falloff.


These are all big changes. I'm a drone pilot myself, and I'm not opposed to many of these changes. I do think, though, that we have done well enough for now, and should sit tight and see what happens before neutering the Ishtar to the point of obsolescence.

Very many of the "Do this to harm the Ishtar" comments can be summed up simply as "Do this to harm the ship/weapon/style that I didn't train for." I sense a prevailing attitude of selfishness in many of the comments, and urge a more objective look at data instead of the "recommendations" of the CSM and the attitudes of the self-serving.



As a solo pvper in low sec. i do not think its drone weapon system alone. I think its the fact that the ishtar has 5 mids and u cant really 1 v 1 on the same category against a triple DDA + Triple extender + T2 field extender fit ishtar . The passive armor and the active armor fits have atleast certain drawbacks( like reduction of speed and cap dependancy) but the shield buffer version jus has around 14k of raw shields with 700 dps and its very hard to b killed by another HAC or CRecon ( Vaga, Curse, Sac, zealot, eagle, deimos) which is really not being balanced cos u cant neut it , u cant shut down its weapons , u cant speed tank it ( may b now atleast ceptors can live thru a tackle) and after all this tank and dps it can still fit a prop and prop jamming module and it regens shields at 100/s !!!!!!!!!! . Gallente cross fits to shields shud make em glass cannons not a nuclear powered titanium tank . Especially not when the caldari and Minmatar HAC versions which are supposed to support shield system are trash compared to ishtar.

It needs atleast - 1 or even -2 medslots to be put in place with other HACs


If you do not completely smash a solo nanotar in a vagabond, deimos, or ONI, you are provably bad at this game. The Ishtar is a mediocre to poor HAC unless you use it with a very specific cookie-cutter nano sentry fit.

You are hyperventilating because you are upset about dying to Ishtars. They are no cheesier than any other range DPS HAC gets when flying in an enormous logi blob. Get better at the game and get over it.


I'd like u to show me where it was done ..or else pls move on .. easy to talk without numbers ..my numbers are right here ..cos a vaga cant tank 700 dps untill 14 k shields go down shooting from 20k off :p and gardes hitting u for 700 god pray ur asb doesnt run out and deimos cant catch it fast enuf to apply its rightfull dps .. ur good a flying in fleet so be it .. if u have done it solo post a kill mail or please ....also .... 90 % of the carebeards running sites wud fit the cookie cutter rather why fit it lower ? ... lol there are more than 1400 posts that say Ishtar is not a mediocre HAC .. u mr .. dont know the game at all sadly .. u played in 2010 ??
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1420 - 2014-08-12 18:40:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Zeb Riu wrote:
So now the isthar is the slowest HAC with the worst offensive damage projection and least bonuses by percentage.

I'm sorry, what?