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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Second Static for C4s

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Pavel Sohaj
BAND of MAGNUS
#201 - 2014-08-11 07:19:12 UTC
Andiedeath wrote:


It will become more active as PVP corps will want these WHs.... Its basically their gateway to heaven!

Quote:

CCP, if you want larger corps to move in, or you want the current C4 residents to do more pvp, then you need to give us a chance to replace what we lose. As it stands right now, it takes ages to replace even the bare minimum fleet for running the combat sites in there. Whether you're looking at 3 RR Domis, a lone Marauder, or a flock of tengu, the cost for replacing lost ships is too high for C4 corps to remain viable without turtling up.

Say your bare minimum Dominix team is somehow able to run the sites with 3 ships totalling 300m each after fittings. . .
In order to afford a replacement fleet, you'd need to run between 10 and 15 Barracks depending on salvage. Let's say it takes you two weeks to get that many spawned (in my experience, it takes longer). That's about 260 mil in fuel at current Jita prices for one stick. That adds 3 more sites onto the calculation.

Assuming you have NO other expenses, your break even is 13-18 of the best sites in the class before you can afford to lose one bare minimum fleet. Keep in mind, that fleet just barely squeaks by on those sites. The payout for the work just isn't there. People turtle up, not because they're afraid of dying, but because they can't afford to replace their ships on that kind of income.

TL/DR: If you want more activity in C4s, then you need to provide a living wage, yo. People stick to c3s and c5s, avoiding c4s not because of logistics, but because of income potential


LOL! The points are correct but your conclusion is... the opposite of what you were saying... 1 + 1 equals 11 then?

1. You can run C4 sites in a W-R in Assault Frigates. There are other cheap fits you can use for other variable types...
2. You will now have a second static to farm from. ;)

So in fact you should find things are better after Hyperion. But yes I agree with this and other posts that the isk reward in c4's needs to be better as they are only slightly better than c3's and a LONG way from c5's. Although from what I saw earlier Fozzie has hinted they will fix that soon. :)

So in conclusion... Awesome Change! Keep up the great work Fozzie!



Right, C4 sites in assault frigs? Video please. Especially of smth like the dat /relic sites with 4 safeguards. You entirely miss the point. Alot of people have no interest in pew, but just to farm and live and occasionally shoot at someone. These people will move out, unsub and whatnot, because their way of life ingame is killed for what? More empty space? Theres load of C4s, most empty. Think adding static to empty system is going to help anything? :D server load perhaps?


Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:
why hasnt CCP fozzie been fired yet? everyone in the community hates him..

how come the management is so blind and cant see that he is the cancer eating the game away from the inside??

this is an AWFUL change as is every other change he has made.
myself and several other friends have unsubed. wormholes were the last chunk of the game that hadnt been killed by fozzie, and now they are dead too.. rip eve.

changing system effects is bad...but this is the worst idea in eve update history...

if you want to do something to wormholes. add Moon mining, nothing fancy just low sec level moons, more statics and wonderings, and add 1 cube of each type of low sec ice to each of the wh grav belts.. that way people still need to come out to high or null and get isotopic ice, and trade goods.
the people would love you for that. but no fozzie, you want 95% of the wormhole community to rage quit the game, and you want people to unsub. so wish granted.

no one likes this. no one asked for this. i cant believe youre gonna push it out anyway XD ha ha bad dev is bad.


I have said it before, will say it again.
Null sec cartels can't control wh income ingame, so they get the dev's to wreck it.
You think this is bad? Wait until you see the nerfs to T3 ships, wiping out the market for them, killing wh income even further.


I like the last part and agree with it. If the farmers, as we have been labeled here many times, have so much WH isk, why is alot of ppl saying the C4s dont provide enough income?

Dear Fozzie, if you really intend on screwing up WHs with another static, inability to effectively close another WH and hamper our isk incomes, why not delay local in null by 30 sec. Would be fun. And tears.

As stated before, obviously nobody really cares about the smaller groups that have NO interest in grouping up into big groups. It is kind of forcing us to do in order to survive. Well, ill pack up my stuff and head back to hisec, or probably when my game time is up, ill give up on the game and seeing how we talked, all chars in our group will. Guess thats how you bring life to WHs right?

Or do you seriously think, that adding 2nd static will help what? More ppl for the C5ers to shoot? You gotta be kidding. But I do presume most ppl here are trolls without any knowledge of wormholes.
Oh and I disagree with what Winthorpe or such name says. I live in 4-4 and dont complain about anything. We farm enough, we can do logistics and yaaay, time to crack the game for us.

Love you CCP, I almost feel sad for paying for this at some point.
Elyas Crux
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#202 - 2014-08-11 07:29:07 UTC
+1
Second static for C4s is a sensible change that will bring more interaction and gives C4 a niche.
umnikar
Fishbone Industries
#203 - 2014-08-11 10:42:24 UTC
Elyas Crux wrote:
+1
Second static for C4s is a sensible change that will bring more interaction and gives C4 a niche.


Not only a niche. If 54 c4/c4 are going to get a c2 as 2nd there will be a bigger move...
Kp Amelia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#204 - 2014-08-11 10:42:44 UTC
Andiedeath wrote:
Fish McCragg wrote:
So I've been thinking about it. . .

At first I was very turned off by the idea of another static in my wormhole, but the more I think about it the more I'm starting to warm up to the idea. That being said, it's not going to do anything to help players become more active in C4 space. Just from the law of averages, it might lead to more random accidental encounters just from the increased travel-through they're likely to see, but balance that against the increased need to turtle to survive and the likelihood that many smaller corps will be moving out, you get a lot of empty space.





It will become more active as PVP corps will want these WHs.... Its basically their gateway to heaven!

Quote:

CCP, if you want larger corps to move in, or you want the current C4 residents to do more pvp, then you need to give us a chance to replace what we lose. As it stands right now, it takes ages to replace even the bare minimum fleet for running the combat sites in there. Whether you're looking at 3 RR Domis, a lone Marauder, or a flock of tengu, the cost for replacing lost ships is too high for C4 corps to remain viable without turtling up.

Say your bare minimum Dominix team is somehow able to run the sites with 3 ships totalling 300m each after fittings. . .
In order to afford a replacement fleet, you'd need to run between 10 and 15 Barracks depending on salvage. Let's say it takes you two weeks to get that many spawned (in my experience, it takes longer). That's about 260 mil in fuel at current Jita prices for one stick. That adds 3 more sites onto the calculation.

Assuming you have NO other expenses, your break even is 13-18 of the best sites in the class before you can afford to lose one bare minimum fleet. Keep in mind, that fleet just barely squeaks by on those sites. The payout for the work just isn't there. People turtle up, not because they're afraid of dying, but because they can't afford to replace their ships on that kind of income.

TL/DR: If you want more activity in C4s, then you need to provide a living wage, yo. People stick to c3s and c5s, avoiding c4s not because of logistics, but because of income potential


LOL! The points are correct but your conclusion is... the opposite of what you were saying... 1 + 1 equals 11 then?

1. You can run C4 sites in a W-R in Assault Frigates. There are other cheap fits you can use for other variable types...
2. You will now have a second static to farm from. ;)

So in fact you should find things are better after Hyperion. But yes I agree with this and other posts that the isk reward in c4's needs to be better as they are only slightly better than c3's and a LONG way from c5's. Although from what I saw earlier Fozzie has hinted they will fix that soon. :)

So in conclusion... Awesome Change! Keep up the great work Fozzie!




So screw everyone who lives in a C4 currently, they should all move out so the T3 blobs can move in? While everyone else is looking at this as 'how to benefit both sides' all you want is PvP and screw anyone who doesn't....

You forget that without people running sites you lose targets, the more people who leave wormhole the less people there are to shoot at. So if all you care about is getting kills for yourself at least don't be so short sighted as to think that kicking all current C4 holders out is a good thing.
Kp Amelia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#205 - 2014-08-11 10:44:50 UTC
Elyas Crux wrote:
+1
Second static for C4s is a sensible change that will bring more interaction and gives C4 a niche.


In fact it would do the opposite. C2's currently hold that niche, the change would make C4s and C2s the same. In fact one could argue that what C4s currently have is niche.
Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
#206 - 2014-08-11 11:06:17 UTC
Kp Amelia wrote:
Elyas Crux wrote:
+1
Second static for C4s is a sensible change that will bring more interaction and gives C4 a niche.


In fact it would do the opposite. C2's currently hold that niche, the change would make C4s and C2s the same. In fact one could argue that what C4s currently have is niche.



Considering c2's are the best type of system to live in for small gang fights, getting more of these type of systems sounds pretty good to me.
Pavel Sohaj
BAND of MAGNUS
#207 - 2014-08-11 11:13:12 UTC
Ya Huei wrote:
Kp Amelia wrote:
Elyas Crux wrote:
+1
Second static for C4s is a sensible change that will bring more interaction and gives C4 a niche.


In fact it would do the opposite. C2's currently hold that niche, the change would make C4s and C2s the same. In fact one could argue that what C4s currently have is niche.



Considering c2's are the best type of system to live in for small gang fights, getting more of these type of systems sounds pretty good to me.



Not really. The biggest fact for C2 is the high being constantly behind you. It makes EVERYTHING you need in WH absolutely easy. While if you get C4 to C4 and C3 for example, its not exactly super easy to bring fuel. ITs easier then just 4/4 yes, but its added load. Nor to mention the need for guard when farming. Its different and so easiyl subsumed.
Andiedeath
We Aim To MisBehave
Wild Geese.
#208 - 2014-08-11 11:17:25 UTC
Kp Amelia wrote:


So screw everyone who lives in a C4 currently, they should all move out so the T3 blobs can move in? While everyone else is looking at this as 'how to benefit both sides' all you want is PvP and screw anyone who doesn't....

You forget that without people running sites you lose targets, the more people who leave wormhole the less people there are to shoot at. So if all you care about is getting kills for yourself at least don't be so short sighted as to think that kicking all current C4 holders out is a good thing.


Actually... I PVE quite a bit to fund my PVP and also public PVP community events. Yes many of our targets are carebears but that is because their shiny ships can also fund our requirement for isk to support our PVP. Although we do want 'real' PVP which is the thrill of fighting an adversary that wants to fight back. This isn't always one you win but its exciting non the less.

I will also say that many carebears will work around these changes and I'm sure will flourish... I have no doubt of that...

Also I'll make sure to get a vid of the W-R c4 assault frigate gang we use. But I can say it includes 2-3 exequror's and 4-5 Enyos and is LOADS OF FUN! A 'little' less isk efficient than RR Domi's or marauders but definitely more enjoyable.


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Pavel Sohaj
BAND of MAGNUS
#209 - 2014-08-11 11:20:59 UTC
Andiedeath wrote:
Kp Amelia wrote:


So screw everyone who lives in a C4 currently, they should all move out so the T3 blobs can move in? While everyone else is looking at this as 'how to benefit both sides' all you want is PvP and screw anyone who doesn't....

You forget that without people running sites you lose targets, the more people who leave wormhole the less people there are to shoot at. So if all you care about is getting kills for yourself at least don't be so short sighted as to think that kicking all current C4 holders out is a good thing.


Actually... I PVE quite a bit to fund my PVP and also public PVP community events. Yes many of our targets are carebears but that is because their shiny ships can also fund our requirement for isk to support our PVP. Although we do want 'real' PVP which is the thrill of fighting an adversary that wants to fight back. This isn't always one you win but its exciting non the less.

I will also say that many carebears will work around these changes and I'm sure will flourish... I have no doubt of that...

Also I'll make sure to get a vid of the W-R c4 assault frigate gang we use. But I can say it includes 2-3 exequror's and 4-5 Enyos and is LOADS OF FUN! A 'little' less isk efficient than RR Domi's or marauders but definitely more enjoyable.




Looking forward to the video.

I PvE alot and change wont help it. Itll mean less people in WHs. First of all, wormholes mean money and on sixth place they mean pvp, unless you roll C5/C6 where you have the cap ppl. But when a C5/C6 rolls into our system, we log off. Why, cause we cannot compete with them. Having another static, which might happen to be c5, we just call it a day and play smth else. SUrely, ppl will adapt, as much as the PCU adapted to the latest changes.
Kp Amelia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#210 - 2014-08-11 11:23:25 UTC
Andiedeath wrote:
Kp Amelia wrote:


So screw everyone who lives in a C4 currently, they should all move out so the T3 blobs can move in? While everyone else is looking at this as 'how to benefit both sides' all you want is PvP and screw anyone who doesn't....

You forget that without people running sites you lose targets, the more people who leave wormhole the less people there are to shoot at. So if all you care about is getting kills for yourself at least don't be so short sighted as to think that kicking all current C4 holders out is a good thing.


Actually... I PVE quite a bit to fund my PVP and also public PVP community events. Yes many of our targets are carebears but that is because their shiny ships can also fund our requirement for isk to support our PVP. Although we do want 'real' PVP which is the thrill of fighting an adversary that wants to fight back. This isn't always one you win but its exciting non the less.

I will also say that many carebears will work around these changes and I'm sure will flourish... I have no doubt of that...

Also I'll make sure to get a vid of the W-R c4 assault frigate gang we use. But I can say it includes 2-3 exequror's and 4-5 Enyos and is LOADS OF FUN! A 'little' less isk efficient than RR Domi's or marauders but definitely more enjoyable.


Great so you run em with 8 dudes? What about the smaller corps who are maxing out at 3-4 guys or even the two man or solo? Are they meant to get lost? do they not matter as much as the big PvP entities? Because it currently feels like that's what CCP is saying.
Pavel Sohaj
BAND of MAGNUS
#211 - 2014-08-11 11:30:32 UTC
Kp Amelia wrote:


Great so you run em with 8 dudes? What about the smaller corps who are maxing out at 3-4 guys or even the two man or solo? Are they meant to get lost? do they not matter as much as the big PvP entities? Because it currently feels like that's what CCP is saying.


It surely all does sound like attempt to create bloc blobs in WHs. As in that small corps have no place in Whs.
Jon Hellguard
X-COM
#212 - 2014-08-11 17:32:21 UTC
Do-able.

I would try to dig deeper in to the why c4's show relatively less activity. Connections might be a solid issue, of course. Maybe w-space corporations tend to have certain gaps in size or active members that makes c4's somewhat an either too high or too low choice for pve.

I agree - at some point you have to choose a switch to flip and see what happens. I feel giving all c4's a second static right away is a bit too much. I like the direction, but giving them somewhat a higher random-spawning chance might already be good enough. c4's might receive too much attention from solid sized merc corps - giving them 2 statics to roll and hunt might be too much of a set back for the very small gang adventurers. What I'm asking - is there a way to give c4's a more random connections by scripting rather than addid hard mechanics?
Adriana Nolen
Sama Guild
#213 - 2014-08-11 19:17:59 UTC
They are buffing scout incursion site income. If buffed enough, hasta la vista C4 residents.
Ktersida Nyn'Amanyn
Querschlaeger
#214 - 2014-08-11 19:45:29 UTC
I'm not sure but i scanned some minutes ago with my alt in a c4 on sissy and i've two statics in this c4. normaly it's a c4-c1 and now there is a c247 to a c3. Maybe the new statics are online on sissy now.
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#215 - 2014-08-11 20:15:27 UTC
Ktersida Nyn'Amanyn wrote:
I'm not sure but i scanned some minutes ago with my alt in a c4 on sissy and i've two statics in this c4. normaly it's a c4-c1 and now there is a c247 to a c3. Maybe the new statics are online on sissy now.


Confirmed here as well. Previous C4/C3 system now has an H900 to C5 space (not my ideal choice)
Kp Amelia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#216 - 2014-08-11 20:57:44 UTC
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/coming-in-hyperion-on-august-26th/

Good to see CCP is bring even more items for people to waist RL money on while screwing over C4 owners and not even caring.
Winthorp
#217 - 2014-08-11 23:59:10 UTC
Looks like i will have to wait until changes go live to find my new static as my toon was in Jita last update and they won't move me on SISI.... X
Pro TIps
Doomheim
#218 - 2014-08-12 00:08:10 UTC
Andiedeath wrote:
Kp Amelia wrote:

So screw everyone who lives in a C4 currently, they should all move out so the T3 blobs can move in? While everyone else is looking at this as 'how to benefit both sides' all you want is PvP and screw anyone who doesn't....

You forget that without people running sites you lose targets

Actually... I PVE quite a bit to fund my PVP and also public PVP community events. Yes many of our targets are carebears but that is because their shiny ships can also fund our requirement for isk to support our PVP. Although we do want 'real' PVP

Real PVP is all you're going to find if C4s become less attractive to people who already live in them specifically because they want isolation (which is everyone who lives in one.)

Jon Hellguard wrote:
I would try to dig deeper in to the why c4's show relatively less activity. Connections might be a solid issue, of course. Maybe w-space corporations tend to have certain gaps in size or active members that makes c4's somewhat an either too high or too low choice for pve.

You know why C4s are unpopular? The combat sites aren't super-easy like C3 and below, the payout isn't much better than C3, and you don't get instrumental gas sites and things like that which earn you additional money in C5/C6 systems. C4s are a sweet-spot for small groups to farm, do industry, etc.

I did 9 C4 combat sites today and 9 C3 combat sites. Our C4 fleet had more DPS and a carrier logi. It took two hours to do those 9 sites. The C3 fleet was able to complete 9 sites in about 70 minutes (yes, I kept track, for the purpose of giving feedback here.) The pay-out we got was roughly the same from both ops.

Did we have bad luck on salvage? Sure, a little; but you're talking almost twice the time to do C4 sites with more DPS and a carrier (that can only be built inside the system and is then permanently trapped there; an investment in time and ISK) and there is somewhat higher risk to your ships because there are more scrams and substantially more NPC damage coming in.


Now, I'm not complaining about the current state of C4s. I like them the way they are. I'm fine with the lower pay-out because of the isolation / reduced traffic. If I have to give that up, I want something else to get better. Otherwise, I may simply move to another type of system. So will many others. There go all the carebears that produce income for PVP gangs.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#219 - 2014-08-12 00:11:41 UTC
Fish McCragg wrote:


Also. . . neckbeards? The hell are you talking about? Are you trying to say that everyone who lives in C4 space is socially awkward and/or mildly autistic? What are we, 12 years old or something? Have a little respect for your fellow players and their opinions, or go back to world of warcraft where that kind of pointless **** waggling belongs.

You have some valid points on how this mechanic will affect gameplay, but if you can't present it respectfully, then you're going to find that nobody will listen to it.


Pshaw. Want me to buy you a tech 2 shaving kit and a ramp out of your mum's basement? I call C4 residents neckbeards because, and this is backed up by the majority of responses on this thread, most people just want to farm by themselves, like crofters or neckbearded loons living in their mum's basement.

You know what the background music for C4 space should be? This.

Don't feel singled out. i've got as little respect for our tonsorially challenged, hirsute C4 brethren as I so for the instadock and instaPOS nullbears i find so often.

Just in case everyone missed it, the majority of responses to this thread are;

  • halp,, I will have two statics to close and not spawn. Except now i can spawn them and it won't show on the other side till I jump through. So that's actually a bonus.
  • Halp, I will have a second static, which totally ruins my ability to make PVE. Because i won't be able to do what I allways did before, because as we know, a second static...er...um...hurfleblurf
  • Halp, them bads in C5 space may connect to me and I may have to log off.
  • Halp, there isn't a cherry on top of more ISK in my home system. I need more ISK because of the more risk.
  • I'm a going to move out because you turned C4's from neckbeard Farmville into PVp mecca, thereby proving TF's point that we are all just muddy-footed ploughshares.
  • Halp, no one lives here now. Aparrt from me, who iss in Black legion. Because i totally don't farm solo in my Marauders.
  • Halp, what you mean this might now be space you need more than 12 ISBoxing Ishtars to run? What you mean I have to develop "social skills"? What is MMO?
  • Halp, i totes disbelieve that 8 guys would want to cooperate to do PVE because *wheezing* my TX54b calculator app on my iPhone 5s says that it is not the most ISK/hr efficient way of doing *wheeze* PVE in a wormhole. If you run an X-type Paladin solo *asthma puffer* you can do C4's solo like everyone else!


I mean, come on guy. Give it up.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Plox Pembroke
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#220 - 2014-08-12 01:09:56 UTC
Winthorp wrote:
Looks like i will have to wait until changes go live to find my new static as my toon was in Jita last update and they won't move me on SISI.... X


Winthorp wrote:

Yeah you practically did ask for that. You only have one scan alt in your WH? i sure hope not.

You seem to just be pointlessly whining TBH. Like i said they will go on SISI and you can check before they go live, if that time frame isn't enough then start moving now. So much pointless whining in this thread and none of it of any substance at all.


You only have one scan alt in your wh?