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Was dealt less damage than my HP and still went BOOM. (Ghost Site)

Author
Jeremy Kamira
#1 - 2014-08-08 17:47:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeremy Kamira
Hey there wonderful eve citizens, i was doing some ghost sites and it seems like i blew up even though i had more HP! Was wondering why this would of happened and if it was a bug or not.

The Notification Log (Dealt 1498 Damage)
http://i.gyazo.com/1701d3aaddbf24425e7b9e3bb01b0089.png

The Fit (Clearly has 27 more HP then i was dealt, and i know this fit is terrible for ghost sites but that isn't the point of this thread!)
http://i.gyazo.com/728139895d63373e61282d1706d91d47.png

The Killmail (I dont know if posting these are allowed so if its not please edit my post)
http://i.gyazo.com/5a2e421134ebac907068327346086d0e.png


Where in my thinking did i go wrong or is this just a bug?
Jur Tissant
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2014-08-08 18:00:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jur Tissant
I could just be BSing this but a little Google research yields this: the damage log tells you how much damage you take AFTER resists are in effect, whereas the EHP tells you how much damage you can take before resists are calculated.

Think of it this way: if you apply a resist module to a ship, your EHP increases - even though your shield, hull, and armor amounts still remain the same. So EHP in the fitting window doesn't tell you how many red numbers you can take before you blow up - that depends only on shield, hull, and armor amounts - but rather it tells you how much raw, unresisted damage can be thrown at you.

So, you received 1498 damage after resists, and if you add up the shield, hull, and armor amounts from the fitting window you will see this is equal to their sum. This also means that the ghost site threw more than 1525 damage at you before resists were calculated.
Jeremy Kamira
#3 - 2014-08-08 18:11:36 UTC
Jur Tissant wrote:
I could just be BSing this but a little Google research yields this: the damage log tells you how much damage you take AFTER resists are in effect, whereas the EHP tells you how much damage you can take before resists are calculated.

Think of it this way: if you apply a resist module to a ship, your EHP increases - even though your shield, hull, and armor amounts still remain the same. So EHP in the fitting window doesn't tell you how many red numbers you can take before you blow up - that depends only on shield, hull, and armor amounts - but rather it tells you how much raw, unresisted damage can be thrown at you.

So, you received 1498 damage after resists, and if you add up the shield, hull, and armor amounts from the fitting window you will see this is equal to their sum. This also means that the ghost site threw more than 1525 damage at you before resists were calculated.


A bit tired right now so i don't really understand what you were saying, but according to EveHQ when there is pure explosive damage i have over 3500EHP.

http://i.gyazo.com/0e9d0b11f11d8444d1bd3c022a7f9db4.png
Jur Tissant
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-08-08 18:17:41 UTC
And ghost sites deal over 4000 damage according to UniWiki. They can pack a real punch - I once lost an Astero to one in high-sec and haven't done them since.
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2014-08-08 18:29:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Cara Forelli
In your example

1111 Shield HP
240 Armor HP
147 Structure HP

Adds to 1498 total HP

The damage log tells you how many actual hitpoints you lost, whereas the EHP on your ship shows how much total damage your ship could take (some of it will be mitigated by resists).

Assuming explosive damage, your ship has 3886 EHP, meaning your resistances would mitigate the damage so that you only took 1498 damage - all your hitpoints. So if the explosion has base damage of anything larger than 3886, it will destroy your ship. 1498 is the number reported as damage you took, because that's how many ACTUAL hitpoints you lost (as opposed to effective hitpoints).

Edit:

Let's say the explosion does 4000 explosive damage.

-3472 of that hits your shields. Your resistance cuts that to 32% hitting you which is 1111 hitpoints. Shields gone
-267 of that hits your armor. Your resistance cuts that to 90% hitting you which is 240 hitpoints. Armor gone
-147 of that hits your structure. You have no resistance so all 147 damage is applied to your hitpoints. Structure gone.
-114 damage is left to spare, and the number of hitpoints you lost was 1498

Edit 2: the 1525 EHP showing in game takes into account your lowest resists. It's assuming EM damage against your shields, and explosive against your armor. The extra 27 HP comes from that 10% armor resist.

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J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6 - 2014-08-08 18:34:13 UTC
Not to mention: EVEHQ / EFT / EVE fitting window give a "global EHP" considering ALL 4 resists.

So if you have a huge hole in say EM and get shot by strictly EM damage...your actual EHP will be way lower then what any fitting window will say.


OP....FIrst thing you should do:

Get rid of the "Paper EHP" mentality.

On paper =/= actual situations.

Hell, this works in RL too. Take milage on cars for instance, no matter what the producers claim in their adverts, you will never get those milage on the car, as it's the best possible milage, in the most optimal circumstances (no extra weight, perfect tires, perfect road condition, no wind etc. etc. etc.)

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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#7 - 2014-08-08 19:04:25 UTC
Jeremy Kamira wrote:
A bit tired right now so i don't really understand what you were saying, but according to EveHQ when there is pure explosive damage i have over 3500EHP.

http://i.gyazo.com/0e9d0b11f11d8444d1bd3c022a7f9db4.png

... which is less than 4000 = you go boom!
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-08-08 19:28:05 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Jeremy Kamira wrote:
A bit tired right now so i don't really understand what you were saying, but according to EveHQ when there is pure explosive damage i have over 3500EHP.

http://i.gyazo.com/0e9d0b11f11d8444d1bd3c022a7f9db4.png

... which is less than 4000 = you go boom!


To be even more exact:

Ghost sites do pure explosive damage.

1111 Shield HP * 1,675 (67,5% Exp resist) = 1861 HP
240 Armor HP * 1.10 (10% Exp resist) = 264 HP
147 Hull HP * 1 (0% Exp resist) = 147 HP

The total HP you could tank with pure Explosive damage was: 2272 HP

Not over 3500 EHP, as that takes into account all 4 resists.


So with an avg of 4000 Explosive damage, it wasn't even close to surviving it.

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Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-08-08 19:44:33 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
To be even more exact:

Might wanna check those numbers J. You got your percents backward. [see my post]

J'Poll wrote:
Not over 3500 EHP, as that takes into account all 4 resists.

Nope...explosive is his highest shield resistance. It should provide the highest EHP.

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Marc Durant
#10 - 2014-08-08 22:42:44 UTC
Stop guessing or assuming and get EFT and then add the damage profiles as explained, then you can quickly and easily use facts to help your understanding of how stuff really works.

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.

Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#11 - 2014-08-08 23:58:16 UTC
EHP is based on the implied HP damage you take, not literal.

Cara laid it out correctly.

When you have 100 HP and 90% resistance then you have 1,000 EHP

When someone fires a bullet at you that does 50 damage you'll actually take 5.

When you explode you'll have taken 100 HP of damage but 1,000 worth will have been fired at you.

The Drake is a Lie

DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2014-08-09 00:20:56 UTC  |  Edited by: DeMichael Crimson
Jeremy Kamira wrote:
The Fit (Clearly has 27 more HP then i was dealt, and i know this fit is terrible for ghost sites but that isn't the point of this thread!)
http://i.gyazo.com/728139895d63373e61282d1706d91d47.png

The Killmail (I dont know if posting these are allowed so if its not please edit my post)
http://i.gyazo.com/5a2e421134ebac907068327346086d0e.png

Ghost Sites (Anomaly) aren't plentiful and the fit looks like you're actually going for Hacking Sites (Signature) in low security.

Instead of having 2x Small Shield Extender II modules, replace them with 1x Medium Shield Extender II. You'll actually have twice as many shield HP's and use less CPU for fitting.

1x Medium Shield HP bonus = 1,050 HP / CPU usage 34 tf
verses
2x Small Shield HP bonus = 526 HP / CPU usage 46 tf

Now the 1x Medium Shield Extender II will use a lot more Powergrid which can be supplemented by replacing the NanoFiber Internal Structure II modules in the low slot with 1x Reactor Control Unit II and 1x Power Diagnostic System II. Removing the Nanofiber modules will actually increase your effective HP's with more structure HP's and the PDS module has a lot of excellent attributes which help passive shield tanks.

Shield recharge rate bonus = 8.5 %
Shield HP bonus = 5 %
Capacitor recharge rate bonus = 8.5 %
Capacitor bonus = 5 %
Powergrid bonus = 5 %

Personally I'd remove the 1x Small Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer II rig since the Heron already has a high Explosive shield resistance attribute. Instead I'd plug the EM resistance hole in the shield with 1x Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I rig:

EM dmg resistance bonus -30 %
Calibration cost 50

To help increase all of the shield resistance attributes, fit up 1x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II in the mid slot for an extra 30% more shield damage resistance.

I don't see any reason for having a MWD module fitted, especially since you're not really moving around much in Hacking sites. Since the MWD module uses more CPU and Powergrid, I'd replace that with 1x 1MN Afterburner I module.

Even with my skills there's still not enough Powergrid available so 1x Small Ancillary Current Router I rig needs to be fitted. If needed, you can always exchange the T2 Med Shield Extender and T2 Adaptive Invulnerability Field modules for T1 Meta Level modules for reduced Powergrid need.

Due to the amount of Calibration Points available, the 1x Small Memetic Algorithm Bank II rig needs to be replaced with the T1 version - Small Memetic Algorithm Bank I.

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii224/DMC13_photo/Eve%20Screenshots/Eve%20Ship%20Fits/Heron-Heron1.jpg

Since you originally intended to increase the ship's velocity and maneuverability you might wanna think about replacing the Small Memetic Algorithm Bank rig with 1x Small Polycarbon Engine Housing II rig.

Well, I've spent way too much time on this and I don't even know if the fit linked above can handle a Ghost Site. I'm sure a good fit Cruiser can definitely handle Ghost Sites but a Frigate ...............

Anyway, good luck to you. I hope you have a long and rewarding career.


DMC
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2014-08-09 17:39:42 UTC
The answer to the OP is very simple.

As Cara pointed out, his ship's total HP was 1,498. Exactly the damage taken as shown on the combat log. So --> pop!


Now my question is (simple curiosity, actually): why the hell does the in-game fitting window display 1,525 HP, which clearly is 27 HP more than the sum of the displayed shield+armor+hull HP?!

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#14 - 2014-08-09 18:36:10 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
Edit 2: the 1525 EHP showing in game takes into account your lowest resists. It's assuming EM damage against your shields, and explosive against your armor. The extra 27 HP comes from that 10% armor resist.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2014-08-10 11:24:35 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
Edit 2: the 1525 EHP showing in game takes into account your lowest resists. It's assuming EM damage against your shields, and explosive against your armor. The extra 27 HP comes from that 10% armor resist.
Your usefulness is beyond physical reality.

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