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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1281 - 2014-08-08 16:08:57 UTC
I feel the Ishtar change is plenty for the ship hull. The real problem with the Ishtar to me seems to be the drones. Drone ships just have a strong tendency to be more powerful than the other ships because there is a strong trend toward making sure drones are a competent weapon system without taking away a drone ship's other weapons. As a result, a drone cruiser is basically doing full DPS in one part of the grid while also doing half DPS or running neuts or something else important in another part of the grid.

My solution is to either take away some more of those high slots and turret hardpoints from drone ships, or nerf drone damage and accept them as somewhat soft-hitting yet highly versatile ships. I'd still fly a drone ship because I like versatile ships, but at least I won't feel like I'm cheating.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#1282 - 2014-08-08 16:44:16 UTC
Cerbs were awesome until the RLML change. What a stooped change. 35 second reload time? What a joke.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1283 - 2014-08-08 17:14:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Estella Osoka wrote:
Cerbs were awesome until the RLML change. What a stooped change. 35 second reload time? What a joke.
RLMLs have a longer load time? I never noticed, given I'm usually refilling between targets after I have stomped them securely into the dirt in a few rapid-fire volleys.

I say nerf RLMLs and RHMLs but that's only because I use them. Maybe my opinion is biased.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1284 - 2014-08-08 18:10:32 UTC
Rab See wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Rab See wrote:
3x T2 Damage in Lows.
1x 10MN Experi MWD to exacerbate fittings.
EMP, MF, AM, Scourge for ammo
Where drones are significant (5x HH2 = 158dps, 5x Hor 2 = 100dps)


Even though I appreciate the list and it supports claims for Ishtar being over the top, you should at least use T2 missiles. Either need to use longer range for less DPS or shorter range and crap application.



Not trying to get everything here, just a flavour of the relationships. Drop to faction? Close on target and web/paint?

Or try flying a vaga? DPS is crap, range is crap, and its a one trick pony. The Cerb is good when in gangs. The vaga is something for idiots to fly.

The tradeoffs of the hulls make for the variety. DPS for range, applied DPS for the need to tackle / paint/ web ...

Or better yet - Fly a Munnin and laugh at the DPS at its highest and tracking that makes T2 missile application like a dream.


I fly vaga regularly, the hull is fine. Its a kiter, and one of the fastest ships in the game (cyna and orthus i think are others). im sorry you cant have 700dps vaga with 4k m/s with an 800dps tank. Get over it. Vaga shines as a skirmisher, get in, kill a couple people and get out. If you expect more, thats your problem.

If anything, acs and falloff need to be tweaked a smidge. The vaga hull is fine, minus cargo capacity.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1285 - 2014-08-08 18:43:19 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Rab See wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Rab See wrote:
3x T2 Damage in Lows.
1x 10MN Experi MWD to exacerbate fittings.
EMP, MF, AM, Scourge for ammo
Where drones are significant (5x HH2 = 158dps, 5x Hor 2 = 100dps)


Even though I appreciate the list and it supports claims for Ishtar being over the top, you should at least use T2 missiles. Either need to use longer range for less DPS or shorter range and crap application.



Not trying to get everything here, just a flavour of the relationships. Drop to faction? Close on target and web/paint?

Or try flying a vaga? DPS is crap, range is crap, and its a one trick pony. The Cerb is good when in gangs. The vaga is something for idiots to fly.

The tradeoffs of the hulls make for the variety. DPS for range, applied DPS for the need to tackle / paint/ web ...

Or better yet - Fly a Munnin and laugh at the DPS at its highest and tracking that makes T2 missile application like a dream.


I fly vaga regularly, the hull is fine. Its a kiter, and one of the fastest ships in the game (cyna and orthus i think are others). im sorry you cant have 700dps vaga with 4k m/s with an 800dps tank. Get over it. Vaga shines as a skirmisher, get in, kill a couple people and get out. If you expect more, thats your problem.

If anything, acs and falloff need to be tweaked a smidge. The vaga hull is fine, minus cargo capacity.


Vaga is nto a good combination because brawlign bonus combined to speed do not sinergise. It is OKish at 2 scenarios. If i want to fly kite more the navy omen is superior (because it applies damage way way better and has sme speed). Tank bonus is a waste if you want to fly kite mode. If you are kiting you want to not take damage, if you are takign so much damage that you need a tank bonus you are doing it worn g or should not be kiting.

At end the orthus and navy omen takes more of the shine of the vagabond. One being the high end expensive option that is far superior, other a ship that is a third the price and somewhat better on the kite role.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1286 - 2014-08-08 18:45:27 UTC
kagura you're terrible, tank bonuses are always useful.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1287 - 2014-08-08 19:00:25 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Rab See wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Rab See wrote:
3x T2 Damage in Lows.
1x 10MN Experi MWD to exacerbate fittings.
EMP, MF, AM, Scourge for ammo
Where drones are significant (5x HH2 = 158dps, 5x Hor 2 = 100dps)


Even though I appreciate the list and it supports claims for Ishtar being over the top, you should at least use T2 missiles. Either need to use longer range for less DPS or shorter range and crap application.



Not trying to get everything here, just a flavour of the relationships. Drop to faction? Close on target and web/paint?

Or try flying a vaga? DPS is crap, range is crap, and its a one trick pony. The Cerb is good when in gangs. The vaga is something for idiots to fly.

The tradeoffs of the hulls make for the variety. DPS for range, applied DPS for the need to tackle / paint/ web ...

Or better yet - Fly a Munnin and laugh at the DPS at its highest and tracking that makes T2 missile application like a dream.


I fly vaga regularly, the hull is fine. Its a kiter, and one of the fastest ships in the game (cyna and orthus i think are others). im sorry you cant have 700dps vaga with 4k m/s with an 800dps tank. Get over it. Vaga shines as a skirmisher, get in, kill a couple people and get out. If you expect more, thats your problem.

If anything, acs and falloff need to be tweaked a smidge. The vaga hull is fine, minus cargo capacity.


Vaga is nto a good combination because brawlign bonus combined to speed do not sinergise. It is OKish at 2 scenarios. If i want to fly kite more the navy omen is superior (because it applies damage way way better and has sme speed). Tank bonus is a waste if you want to fly kite mode. If you are kiting you want to not take damage, if you are takign so much damage that you need a tank bonus you are doing it worn g or should not be kiting.

At end the orthus and navy omen takes more of the shine of the vagabond. One being the high end expensive option that is far superior, other a ship that is a third the price and somewhat better on the kite role.


Wat.

180 or 220 LSE/XLASB fit vagas beg to differ. You get about 35k EHP. What about the nomen? Ive almost killed kiting nomens with a dual nano anti frig vaga with 400dps.. but ecm drones are ghey.. and he warped.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1288 - 2014-08-08 20:18:36 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Cerbs were awesome until the RLML change. What a stooped change. 35 second reload time? What a joke.


The old Cerb was almost as overpowered as the Ishtar is. It wasn't a fleet ship but dual-XLASB with RLMs before they nerfed RLM fittings was utter insanity.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1289 - 2014-08-08 20:19:51 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Wat.

180 or 220 LSE/XLASB fit vagas beg to differ. You get about 35k EHP. What about the nomen? Ive almost killed kiting nomens with a dual nano anti frig vaga with 400dps.. but ecm drones are ghey.. and he warped.


Vagabond actually has EM and Therm resists, guess what most kiting ships that can catch a NOmen don't have.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1290 - 2014-08-08 20:21:18 UTC
RLMLs are still very silly. should just be deleted honestly.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1291 - 2014-08-08 20:23:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Xequecal wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Wat.

180 or 220 LSE/XLASB fit vagas beg to differ. You get about 35k EHP. What about the nomen? Ive almost killed kiting nomens with a dual nano anti frig vaga with 400dps.. but ecm drones are ghey.. and he warped.


Vagabond actually has EM and Therm resists, guess what most kiting ships that can catch a NOmen don't have.


And its faster than a nomen. Seems to be a good ship for killing nomens then huh? So a nomen is countered by vaga, who would have thought?...

I was mainly replying in reference to him saying nomen is better than vaga. Its not, vaga is hard counter to nomen.

EDIT: Now that i'm home, comparing the 2. Nomen projects better than vagabond (scorch/barrage). Which is fine, because Amarr are stuck with EM/Therm dmg. Vagabond has more dps, speed (not by much), and tracking. So, the nomen may project better, but vaga can track and kill things better, plus has the bonus of changing damage type.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Goochan derp
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1292 - 2014-08-08 23:31:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Goochan derp
i have a hunch that kil2 himself... oh ahem... CCP rise... realizes it needs more of a nerf but too many of his comrades are on vacation right now and he docent want to leave them out of the decisions lol
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1293 - 2014-08-09 02:44:49 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Wat.

180 or 220 LSE/XLASB fit vagas beg to differ. You get about 35k EHP. What about the nomen? Ive almost killed kiting nomens with a dual nano anti frig vaga with 400dps.. but ecm drones are ghey.. and he warped.


Vagabond actually has EM and Therm resists, guess what most kiting ships that can catch a NOmen don't have.


And its faster than a nomen. Seems to be a good ship for killing nomens then huh? So a nomen is countered by vaga, who would have thought?...

I was mainly replying in reference to him saying nomen is better than vaga. Its not, vaga is hard counter to nomen.

EDIT: Now that i'm home, comparing the 2. Nomen projects better than vagabond (scorch/barrage). Which is fine, because Amarr are stuck with EM/Therm dmg. Vagabond has more dps, speed (not by much), and tracking. So, the nomen may project better, but vaga can track and kill things better, plus has the bonus of changing damage type.


The Nomen has higher DPS than a Vagabond with 220s, it's 330 raw DPS with Scorch vs. 390 raw DPS with Barrage, but Barrage is obviously going to be far into falloff.

The Vagabond's main problem is its lowest resist is Kinetic, which is by far the most popular damage type in Eve. It's more common than every other damage type combined and honestly it's pretty close to there being more Kinetic damage than double every other damage type combined.
afkboss
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1294 - 2014-08-09 05:33:28 UTC
Rab See wrote:
3x T2 Damage in Lows.
1x 10MN Experi MWD to exacerbate fittings.
EMP, MF, AM, Scourge for ammo
Where drones are significant (5x HH2 = 158dps, 5x Hor 2 = 100dps)

Muninn: 720mm = 362 (22+22)
Muninn: 425mm = 432 (2+12)
Vaga: 425mm = 432 (2+18)
Vaga: 425mm = 396 (3+27) (Barrage)

Sac: HAMs = 406 (30)
Sac: Heavy = 294 (94)
Zealot: Pulse = 498 (11+5)
Zealot: Beam = 545 (23+10)

Cerb: HAMs = 487 (45)
Cerb: Heavy = 353 (141)
Eagle 250mm = 402 (41+15)
Eagle Neutron = 448 (5+6)

Deimos: Neutron = 560 (2+9)
Deimos: 250mm = 503 (18+22)

Ishtar: Garde 2 = 700 (41+18)
Ishtar: Bouncer 2 = 620 (72+48)
Ishtar: HH2 = 397
Ishtar: Ogre2 = 793
Ishtar: Hob2 = 248


Without worrying on tank, some notables.
Vaga can’t fit artillery, needs mods. Needs barrage. Munnin can fit 425s, but ... no?

Ishtar - it gets ALL the fittings in one ship. closeup DPS, superb long range, brutal close range using Ogres. It has a crapton of fitting! It does EVERYTHING in one ship.

If we fit ranged ammo or DPS ammo on any of the other ships it GIMPs certain aspects horribly. We cannot cross tank, we cannot cover any eventuality (frigates/cruisers and BS in one fitting). We can up the DPS 10-12% using faction ammo (something the Ishtar can only do a bit).

DPS comes at a cost for range on most of the ships. Blasters and auto cannon in particular. But its not 700 DPs to 793. It starts way lower and suffers from things like cap issues, falloff, damage lockin,

Can anyone see where the problems lie?


  • The Munnin is atrocious - utter crap.
  • ...
  • The Vaga is just crap - weak and no dps.
  • The Eagle needs some drones.
  • Deimos is good.
  • Zealot - perhaps some drones, some cap for sure.
  • Sac is good.


Ishtar is down here. Its a class above every ship in every aspect. Tweaking it - get a grip CCP!


Ummm, SAC is good? you just showed its DPS to be below par and with that fitting it has only 2 low slots to tank with,
Rune Sevalle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1295 - 2014-08-09 05:42:43 UTC
At the start of this thread, I felt a bit pissy about my Ishtar being messed with, but the more I read, the more I like the sound of it.
This may fall on deaf ears, but here's what I'd like to see and why:

1. Keep Ishtar speeds the same or increase VERY slightly. Don't decrease it if possible.

2. Remove the Sentry bonuses completely. Split weapons irk me. Instead, replace it with Med/heavy bonuses, or tanking bonuses.
*The Ishtar is a fast ship. I think it'd be cool to see it made into an even more effective brawler, rather than an OP kiter.

It won't fix sentries themselves, but they'd likely fall out of favor on at least one already powerful hull, and would give me extra motivation to experiment with brawling a lot more. (Love mah drone boats.)

So, instead of "We only want to make small number changes", CCP, go ahead and just change the style of the ship itself, as a Sentry nerf seems to be quite a ways away. Number changes are boring, at least if you change the preferred playstyle of the ship, the changes will have some real meaning, and you won't have to necessarily make the ship feel just plain weaker.

My 0.02 isk.
Gargep Farrow
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1296 - 2014-08-09 09:32:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Gargep Farrow
Rune Sevalle wrote:
At the start of this thread, I felt a bit pissy about my Ishtar being messed with, but the more I read, the more I like the sound of it.
This may fall on deaf ears, but here's what I'd like to see and why:

1. Keep Ishtar speeds the same or increase VERY slightly. Don't decrease it if possible.

2. Remove the Sentry bonuses completely. Split weapons irk me. Instead, replace it with Med/heavy bonuses, or tanking bonuses.
*The Ishtar is a fast ship. I think it'd be cool to see it made into an even more effective brawler, rather than an OP kiter.

It won't fix sentries themselves, but they'd likely fall out of favor on at least one already powerful hull, and would give me extra motivation to experiment with brawling a lot more. (Love mah drone boats.)



My 0.02 isk.


In general I dont have a problem with the idea of the Ishtar brawler. But do we really need to go that far?

It seems the biggest complaint is that a cruiser hull is using battle ship sized weapons that are cheap and disposable. I can understand this, and it wouldnt be that hard to fix.

1. Have you looked at the manufacturing requirements of a Sentry compared to any large turret? Maybe its time to increase material requirements on the sentries to bring them closer in line with large turrets?

2.Under Role Bonus, require 30mbs to use sentries. This could be writes as -20 percent to sentry bandwidth and control range.

3. Also under Role bonus give a maximum sentry connection of 15-20 km. (not sure how hard this would be to code)

4.Limit the number of sentries any one ship can have on the grid to 10.

These changes wont kill the Ishtar for activities outside of PvP or make it just another niche ship, but they will make it a lot harder for a fleet of them to dominate and require the pilots and FC to make some serious choices.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1297 - 2014-08-09 09:39:40 UTC
afkboss wrote:
Rab See wrote:
3x T2 Damage in Lows.
1x 10MN Experi MWD to exacerbate fittings.
EMP, MF, AM, Scourge for ammo
Where drones are significant (5x HH2 = 158dps, 5x Hor 2 = 100dps)

Muninn: 720mm = 362 (22+22)
Muninn: 425mm = 432 (2+12)
Vaga: 425mm = 432 (2+18)
Vaga: 425mm = 396 (3+27) (Barrage)

Sac: HAMs = 406 (30)
Sac: Heavy = 294 (94)
Zealot: Pulse = 498 (11+5)
Zealot: Beam = 545 (23+10)

Cerb: HAMs = 487 (45)
Cerb: Heavy = 353 (141)
Eagle 250mm = 402 (41+15)
Eagle Neutron = 448 (5+6)

Deimos: Neutron = 560 (2+9)
Deimos: 250mm = 503 (18+22)

Ishtar: Garde 2 = 700 (41+18)
Ishtar: Bouncer 2 = 620 (72+48)
Ishtar: HH2 = 397
Ishtar: Ogre2 = 793
Ishtar: Hob2 = 248


Without worrying on tank, some notables.
Vaga can’t fit artillery, needs mods. Needs barrage. Munnin can fit 425s, but ... no?

Ishtar - it gets ALL the fittings in one ship. closeup DPS, superb long range, brutal close range using Ogres. It has a crapton of fitting! It does EVERYTHING in one ship.

If we fit ranged ammo or DPS ammo on any of the other ships it GIMPs certain aspects horribly. We cannot cross tank, we cannot cover any eventuality (frigates/cruisers and BS in one fitting). We can up the DPS 10-12% using faction ammo (something the Ishtar can only do a bit).

DPS comes at a cost for range on most of the ships. Blasters and auto cannon in particular. But its not 700 DPs to 793. It starts way lower and suffers from things like cap issues, falloff, damage lockin,

Can anyone see where the problems lie?


  • The Munnin is atrocious - utter crap.
  • ...
  • The Vaga is just crap - weak and no dps.
  • The Eagle needs some drones.
  • Deimos is good.
  • Zealot - perhaps some drones, some cap for sure.
  • Sac is good.


Ishtar is down here. Its a class above every ship in every aspect. Tweaking it - get a grip CCP!


Ummm, SAC is good? you just showed its DPS to be below par and with that fitting it has only 2 low slots to tank with,


It at least has full spectrum damage bonuses compared to the cerb which is skewed to kinetic.
Tronity Neutronux
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1298 - 2014-08-09 13:00:22 UTC
New update new nerfs ... no serious new content or fix for the renting-hell-blob problems. Balacing against what? Everybody in EVE may (and sooner or later have to) skill everything anyway or he have to stay at home while all his friends spread out in the new XYZ-doctrine because all of us are bored using the same again and again all the time. Eve is not Planetside where you stick at one faction after login and an advantage at one faction would debalance the hole war.

In my first days in EVE I though I play as minmatar but soon found out that PvE (yes... yes I know... but I was young...) in my hurricane could hurt with my noobskills (yes... yes I know... but I was young...) and that it's getting easier with the drake. So I made a new char or was waiting for a buff? No! I just skilled a drake. So what? Pretty soon afterwards the hurricane got nerfed and lost one high-slot and the drake got nerfed multiple times via missle nerf, reduced resis, ... So I was happy as minmatar that caldari got nerfed? No! I just lost at both ships. If I think something would be fun to fly I could skill it. Is there something wrong with it? If I found something cool (e.g. moving around in some XYZ-ship) and got a nerf afterwards did this ever made somebody else happy? Chance is good that this other guy get nerfed as well. So balacing against us? You loose something ... who wins?

Regarding munnin. Is there anyone one here that really thinks that some tiny speed improvenet would make the munnin a serious ship? In my opinion this is a pretty, pretty tiny buff for the ship from the "alternative-list" if you could not fly what you should could fly.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1299 - 2014-08-09 13:39:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
afkboss wrote:
Rab See wrote:
3x T2 Damage in Lows.
1x 10MN Experi MWD to exacerbate fittings.
EMP, MF, AM, Scourge for ammo
Where drones are significant (5x HH2 = 158dps, 5x Hor 2 = 100dps)

Muninn: 720mm = 362 (22+22)
Muninn: 425mm = 432 (2+12)
Vaga: 425mm = 432 (2+18)
Vaga: 425mm = 396 (3+27) (Barrage)

Sac: HAMs = 406 (30)
Sac: Heavy = 294 (94)
Zealot: Pulse = 498 (11+5)
Zealot: Beam = 545 (23+10)

Cerb: HAMs = 487 (45)
Cerb: Heavy = 353 (141)
Eagle 250mm = 402 (41+15)
Eagle Neutron = 448 (5+6)

Deimos: Neutron = 560 (2+9)
Deimos: 250mm = 503 (18+22)

Ishtar: Garde 2 = 700 (41+18)
Ishtar: Bouncer 2 = 620 (72+48)
Ishtar: HH2 = 397
Ishtar: Ogre2 = 793
Ishtar: Hob2 = 248


Without worrying on tank, some notables.
Vaga can’t fit artillery, needs mods. Needs barrage. Munnin can fit 425s, but ... no?

Ishtar - it gets ALL the fittings in one ship. closeup DPS, superb long range, brutal close range using Ogres. It has a crapton of fitting! It does EVERYTHING in one ship.

If we fit ranged ammo or DPS ammo on any of the other ships it GIMPs certain aspects horribly. We cannot cross tank, we cannot cover any eventuality (frigates/cruisers and BS in one fitting). We can up the DPS 10-12% using faction ammo (something the Ishtar can only do a bit).

DPS comes at a cost for range on most of the ships. Blasters and auto cannon in particular. But its not 700 DPs to 793. It starts way lower and suffers from things like cap issues, falloff, damage lockin,

Can anyone see where the problems lie?


  • The Munnin is atrocious - utter crap.
  • ...
  • The Vaga is just crap - weak and no dps.
  • The Eagle needs some drones.
  • Deimos is good.
  • Zealot - perhaps some drones, some cap for sure.
  • Sac is good.


Ishtar is down here. Its a class above every ship in every aspect. Tweaking it - get a grip CCP!


Ummm, SAC is good? you just showed its DPS to be below par and with that fitting it has only 2 low slots to tank with,



Thats without drone dps it would appear. Or rages. Sac can touch 600-700dps with rage. The sac has a RESIST bonus on top of amarr t2 resists.. you start out with great resist profile already, and u want more tank?.. dcu/enam/dual rep and a bcu should work fine.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1300 - 2014-08-09 16:59:20 UTC
afkboss wrote:
Ummm, SAC is good? you just showed its DPS to be below par and with that fitting it has only 2 low slots to tank with,


Sacrilege chooses its damage type and that's worth a lot in this metagame. Any given amount of explosive and EM damage is probably the equivalent of 150% of the same amount of kin/therm dps. You're either shooting at kiters that have 0 EM resist or Gallente brawlers that have 10% explosive resist.