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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1141 - 2014-08-06 08:27:37 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:

I directly oppose a huge nerf that would make the Ishtar not worth flying. I also believe other HACs need buffed.


And I oppose one single ship dominating the meta.

It needs taken down a peg. I don't care if you think that it not being the ubergoodsuperawesomebestship means that it's "not worth flying".

The game cannot be held up by one ship, no matter who is flying it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1142 - 2014-08-06 08:30:51 UTC
I look forward to my armour combat drone ishtar being nerfed, since it is so OP.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1143 - 2014-08-06 08:50:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Adrie Atticus
Janice en Marland wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
If you are talking about the Ishtar HAC bonuses, no I do not think there is as much an issue. The Ishtar seems built to be a sentry ship.

The Ishtar with 1 Nano and 1 Experimental MWD is showing 1819 m/s for me while a Stratios is showing 1875m/s. The Ishtar will have higher resists but a Stratios can obtain a lot higher buffer if you take into account the extra rig slot and base shield hp. I also forgot to add the Stratios has a larger drone bay.
I'll give on the speed, forgot to factor in mass. However I still dont see any difference in tank. In fact fitting for best shield (w/prop mod) i have ishtar as the best tank, not to mention smaller sig, and a stable capacitor.

And i'm still curious as to how much you dislike losing that extra sentry.

I see my mistake. You are right on the tank, sig and more cap stable. The loss of a sentry would be bad for an Ishtar just for the fact the Stratios would be so similar. In fact, I think I might have talked myself into selling the Ishtar and buying a Stratios. That Cover Ops cloak is huge.


Covert Ops cloak is huge when you are not in a fleet of 100+.

In a fleet, let's see how the damage works with armor fit Stratios vs. armor ishtar. Stratios will be also taking the benefit of the laser bonus:

Graphs are with 4 sentries on both ships!

Both ships have 2x Omni II and 2x Tracking speed script, both with an MWD, Startios also has 2x TC with tracking scripts for lasers.

Ishtar has less EHP and less speed.

Gardes and Scorch on Stratios vs Garde on Ishtar (because fitting beams means you lose 55% EHP.)

http://i.imgur.com/7FGsw5S.jpg

Bouncers with Scorch on Startios:

http://i.imgur.com/2lE6j8g.jpg

Stratios is a good ship, but it cannot even come close to Ishtars in damage or application. If you want to see more graphs feel free to make them yourself or drop a fit and I'll see what I can do.

Fact is that they are not even close to being comparable in damage or application and are not even close to "similar" outside of both being space ships with a large drone bay.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1144 - 2014-08-06 09:01:46 UTC
More and more I look at the other ships, I don't think there is a subcap which can match Ishtar in damage. If something comes close, it could be the Vindi, but why use a slower and more expensive ship to do the same job as a HAC can do?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1145 - 2014-08-06 09:05:58 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
More and more I look at the other ships, I don't think there is a subcap which can match Ishtar in damage. If something comes close, it could be the Vindi, but why use a slower and more expensive ship to do the same job as a HAC can do?


I assume you mean damage when factored against range and application?

And to a lesser extent ship manoeuvrability?
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1146 - 2014-08-06 09:08:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Adrie Atticus
afkalt wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
More and more I look at the other ships, I don't think there is a subcap which can match Ishtar in damage. If something comes close, it could be the Vindi, but why use a slower and more expensive ship to do the same job as a HAC can do?


I assume you mean damage when factored against range and application?

And to a lesser extent ship manoeuvrability?


Applied DPS, not paper DPS. If paper DPS mattered, we'd all fly machs and vindis and rattlers everywhere in PvP. Agility of the ship is just a massive bonus on top of that, especially because they're virtually immune to bombing.
Odithia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1147 - 2014-08-06 09:09:13 UTC
Knoppaz wrote:


..or the Sacrilege. This ship isn't that bad. It has two main problems:
1. It feels sluggish. Even with MWD it feels like using an AB. An agility-push would be nice, CCP.
2. It's missing a low. That utility high is nice, but a low instead would be far more useful (e.g. for a BCU, IS or EANM) Just leave the meds alone.

..or.. your turn ;)

I kinda like the Sacrilege slot layout, it gives the ship a niche that few other have with lot of utilitty, a hi slot, a bunch of mids and a decent drone bay.
I do agree that it feel way too sluggish, especialy if you fit a plate, I think it could use the "heavy mass and boost base speed" new gen Amarr rebalance.
Wouldn't hurt the Zealot too.
Anthar Thebess
#1148 - 2014-08-06 09:16:06 UTC
Well the issue in isthar that its paper DPS can be easily transferred to applied damage.

People are using sentry drones to do ratting.
Many trained alts to fly isthars, and use them to assist 2 other alts to main.

Worst isthar = less accounts , as they will be not to profitable.

So maybe another aproach.

Instead of chaging isthars - make sentry drones track half as good as they can now.
So new tracking speed on all sentry drones = current tracking / 2.

Why?
PVP.
People usually don't fly towards enemy. They orbit him, move.

PVE.
Rats FLY TOWARDS you in straight line.

So, reduced tracking speed will make sentry drones less appealing , as drones will miss moving/ orbiting targets.
At the same time sentry drones will keep most of their effectiveness in PVE.

This will also put a bit ease to effectivenesses of sentry carriers/ dominixes and ishtars in PVP - stuff that most people would like to change.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1149 - 2014-08-06 09:24:40 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:

Stratios is a good ship, but it cannot even come close to Ishtars in damage or application. If you want to see more graphs feel free to make them yourself or drop a fit and I'll see what I can do.


how is stratios even remotely good if you aren't a cloakscrub? it's trash just like the other SOEs.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1150 - 2014-08-06 09:34:10 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
More and more I look at the other ships, I don't think there is a subcap which can match Ishtar in damage. If something comes close, it could be the Vindi, but why use a slower and more expensive ship to do the same job as a HAC can do?


I assume you mean damage when factored against range and application?

And to a lesser extent ship manoeuvrability?


Applied DPS, not paper DPS. If paper DPS mattered, we'd all fly machs and vindis and rattlers everywhere in PvP. Agility of the ship is just a massive bonus on top of that, especially because they're virtually immune to bombing.


Some ships can beat it in paper dps, but in applied dps nothing can really match it. A Vindicator within it's engagement range can, but the engagement range is about 1/8th of an Ishtar.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1151 - 2014-08-06 09:37:32 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
More and more I look at the other ships, I don't think there is a subcap which can match Ishtar in damage. If something comes close, it could be the Vindi, but why use a slower and more expensive ship to do the same job as a HAC can do?


I assume you mean damage when factored against range and application?

And to a lesser extent ship manoeuvrability?


Applied DPS, not paper DPS. If paper DPS mattered, we'd all fly machs and vindis and rattlers everywhere in PvP. Agility of the ship is just a massive bonus on top of that, especially because they're virtually immune to bombing.


Some ships can beat it in paper dps, but in applied dps nothing can really match it. A Vindicator within it's engagement range can, but the engagement range is about 1/8th of an Ishtar.


Rage HAMs shooting webbed battleships Lol
Rattlesnake could do it too, big time, using RLML Twisted
Gila us up there too, augmented hammers and rapid lights again.

Silly stuff aside, any way you cut it, it's niche/impractical/exceptionally short range stuff for the most part.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1152 - 2014-08-06 09:37:52 UTC
Knoppaz wrote:

..or the Sacrilege. This ship isn't that bad. It has two main problems:
1. It feels sluggish. Even with MWD it feels like using an AB. An agility-push would be nice, CCP.
2. It's missing a low. That utility high is nice, but a low instead would be far more useful (e.g. for a BCU, IS or EANM) Just leave the meds alone.



Hands off my utility high.

The Sac needs a bit more speed, as you mentioned, but overall the Sacrilege is an amazing ship. It's the Legion-lite, and it kicks ass and looks good doing it.

The only thing I would really change about the ship, is not about the ship itself, but rather that Heavy Assault Missiles need buffed pretty badly.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Knoppaz
distress signals
#1153 - 2014-08-06 09:54:40 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Hands off my utility high.

The Sac needs a bit more speed, as you mentioned, but overall the Sacrilege is an amazing ship. It's the Legion-lite, and it kicks ass and looks good doing it.

The only thing I would really change about the ship, is not about the ship itself, but rather that Heavy Assault Missiles need buffed pretty badly.



The speed is ok imho, but the agility is lacking. Also I absolutely understand that people like the utility slot though another low would really be helpful.
Besides, why does everyone having problems with HAMs?

Knoppaz / distressSIGNALS http://distresssignals.tumblr.com

a capsuleer's way to insanity
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1154 - 2014-08-06 09:59:44 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
More and more I look at the other ships, I don't think there is a subcap which can match Ishtar in damage. If something comes close, it could be the Vindi, but why use a slower and more expensive ship to do the same job as a HAC can do?



The APOC can get close... not match it.. but get close. But at huge cost in mobility.


At end Ishtar, because of sentry capability of reachign far with high dps and high tracking is in a class completely above other ships ( same for the dominix, altough the dominix at least is not mobile )

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Anthar Thebess
#1155 - 2014-08-06 10:00:19 UTC
Knoppaz wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Hands off my utility high.

The Sac needs a bit more speed, as you mentioned, but overall the Sacrilege is an amazing ship. It's the Legion-lite, and it kicks ass and looks good doing it.

The only thing I would really change about the ship, is not about the ship itself, but rather that Heavy Assault Missiles need buffed pretty badly.



The speed is ok imho, but the agility is lacking. Also I absolutely understand that people like the utility slot though another low would really be helpful.
Besides, why does everyone having problems with HAMs?



Because those are HAM's.
They are just to slow, and faster moving target can easily outrun those missiles.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1156 - 2014-08-06 10:00:33 UTC
Knoppaz wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Hands off my utility high.

The Sac needs a bit more speed, as you mentioned, but overall the Sacrilege is an amazing ship. It's the Legion-lite, and it kicks ass and looks good doing it.

The only thing I would really change about the ship, is not about the ship itself, but rather that Heavy Assault Missiles need buffed pretty badly.



The speed is ok imho, but the agility is lacking. Also I absolutely understand that people like the utility slot though another low would really be helpful.
Besides, why does everyone having problems with HAMs?




I dont have. HAMS are great. we use them a lot and they work wonders on small scale PVP.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1157 - 2014-08-06 10:01:56 UTC
hams are not good or bad
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1158 - 2014-08-06 10:02:18 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

I'm going to assume it is to prevent from being alpha hit off the field. That is not my fit btw. All it takes is a scram and the Ishtar is no longer faster.


You really are just shiptoasting and actually not playing the game. Can you please elaborate, explain or show how you can apply scrams from a ship going max 700m/s to a ship going 2100m/s in a fleet situation?

Ceptors are a good idea, except they will be at sentry optimals and die to a few Ishtars in a single volley. Probing down one of them and warping in an Eagle takes 8 seconds minimum, Ishtars are over 16k away when you land and over 20k away when you achieve a lock.



What you expected from a character that does not have a single kill registered in its name on all history?


Stop Janice. You are not contributing. You are clearly biased and pushing towards your own agenda and perception with complete disregard for the factual informationt that "ishtars" are grossly overpowered and abused by everyone that can in eve right now. I put ishtars between quotes because that is an issue of sentries not Ishtars mostly.

Personal attacks now? My "agenda" is to prevent the Ishtar from being nerfed to oblivion by large alliance unable to keep up with rapid changes.



Large alliance? PErsonal attack? You seems do not understand what is an attack and what is an accusation of bias. Also we are indeed a huge alliance with all our 68 members.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1159 - 2014-08-06 10:04:32 UTC
Knoppaz wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Hands off my utility high.

The Sac needs a bit more speed, as you mentioned, but overall the Sacrilege is an amazing ship. It's the Legion-lite, and it kicks ass and looks good doing it.

The only thing I would really change about the ship, is not about the ship itself, but rather that Heavy Assault Missiles need buffed pretty badly.



The speed is ok imho, but the agility is lacking. Also I absolutely understand that people like the utility slot though another low would really be helpful.
Besides, why does everyone having problems with HAMs?



They need their travel time reduced.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1160 - 2014-08-06 10:05:20 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
My "agenda" is to prevent the Ishtar from being nerfed to oblivion by large alliance unable to keep up with rapid changes.


Translation.

Your agenda is to oppose change by claiming that the people who want the Ishtar nerfed are the ones who really oppose change in the first place.

Which is honestly mind boggling.

You know exactly what I mean.


I know you're defending your golden goose, that is fairly clear.

But I have yet to see anyone actually mount a genuine defense of a cruiser being able to fit a battleship sized weapon system that can track frigates.

I have very little issues with the Ishtar itself. But non battleships should not be able to fit sentry drones. Either that, or sentry drones need to be nerfed severely.

Sentry drones are not BS weapons. End of story.



Just because you chose to believe in fairies that does not make them exist. Sentry drones have 400 m resolution, they ARE battleships scale weapons. And worse they do not cost fittings. They are already overpowered at the dominix... in the ishtar they are completely broken.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"