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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1121 - 2014-08-06 04:32:00 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
The Ishtar compared to AF and Command Ships is in a very acceptable spot. A few tweaks here and there and it would work well compared to other HACs. What I oppose is nerfing the Ishtar to the point where it is not even worth training for. The Gila truly isn't far behind if at all. The VNI offers similar DPS. The Stratios offers a covert ops cloak. Even a T1 Vexor can reach very high quantities of DPS.
im sure comparing the same weapon system to itself is a great way to balance it. The Ishtar is the focal point of this discussion A: because this is a HAC thread and B: because it is the most powerful ship in the line of sentry using ships you listed. A lot of these argument could and probably would be applied to them if the Ishtar was no longer the front-runner of them.

The proposed changes from CCP seem fair to me. It would still be better than all of those for sentries while narrowing a gap that will only continue to be reduced. What I have suggested is buffing other HACs and try to create niches for them. As you said, once the Ishtar is nerfed to the point it is more viable to fly an easier accessible and easier to train for ship another will just replace it. This leads to a continuous need to adjust ships.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1122 - 2014-08-06 04:36:36 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

Sentry drones are not BS weapons. End of story.


An attempt to handwave away the argument without even attempting a rebuttal.

Thanks for telling me that you basically don't have one.

It wasn't an argument. You built a strawman and I knocked it down.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1123 - 2014-08-06 04:40:12 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
The Ishtar compared to AF and Command Ships is in a very acceptable spot. A few tweaks here and there and it would work well compared to other HACs. What I oppose is nerfing the Ishtar to the point where it is not even worth training for. The Gila truly isn't far behind if at all. The VNI offers similar DPS. The Stratios offers a covert ops cloak. Even a T1 Vexor can reach very high quantities of DPS.
im sure comparing the same weapon system to itself is a great way to balance it. The Ishtar is the focal point of this discussion A: because this is a HAC thread and B: because it is the most powerful ship in the line of sentry using ships you listed. A lot of these argument could and probably would be applied to them if the Ishtar was no longer the front-runner of them.

The proposed changes from CCP seem fair to me. It would still be better than all of those for sentries while narrowing a gap that will only continue to be reduced. What I have suggested is buffing other HACs and try to create niches for them. As you said, once the Ishtar is nerfed to the point it is more viable to fly an easier accessible and easier to train for ship another will just replace it. This leads to a continuous need to adjust ships.

No, if the Ishtar is nerfed to where people are using other ships it is because they are chasing the full flight of sentries on a cruiser. Right now the Ishtar does it best, but if only the Ishtar loses them, then the problem hasn't been addressed, which is a full flight of bonuses sentries on a cruiser hull. That's why there's been proposal to not allow a full flight of sentries. Simple as that. You still get your range and tracking, but no longer have the full damage that makes it OP. And I would much prefer having sentries remain as they are rather than needing a class of drones used by other balanced ships.

And buff all the other HACs? Are you familiar with the term power creep?
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1124 - 2014-08-06 04:43:07 UTC
Justin Cody wrote:
It isn't just the DPS. The Sentry drones require no capacitor...no cpu or grid and the deploying ship needs only to remain within control range...which can be extended easily to 200km. Then it can run around the field not worrying about transversal and keep a superior force (in numbers and or mass) pinned down inside a bubble of fire from all sides.

It's real power comes from not needing to stay with its weapons system. If it had to stay within 30km of its sentries it would be easier to counter. As it is drones are cheap enough that you can *so what* and warp off...warp back drop a new set. Worst case scenario and you run out of drones in your bay...you can carry a mobile depot and 3 more sets in your cargo.

If you run out of 6 sets of sentry drones in an ishtar fleet and you're alive and still in system...then you are in an odd situation.

To reach those ranges it would be seriously handicapped in other areas.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1125 - 2014-08-06 04:54:58 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
The Ishtar compared to AF and Command Ships is in a very acceptable spot. A few tweaks here and there and it would work well compared to other HACs. What I oppose is nerfing the Ishtar to the point where it is not even worth training for. The Gila truly isn't far behind if at all. The VNI offers similar DPS. The Stratios offers a covert ops cloak. Even a T1 Vexor can reach very high quantities of DPS.
im sure comparing the same weapon system to itself is a great way to balance it. The Ishtar is the focal point of this discussion A: because this is a HAC thread and B: because it is the most powerful ship in the line of sentry using ships you listed. A lot of these argument could and probably would be applied to them if the Ishtar was no longer the front-runner of them.

The proposed changes from CCP seem fair to me. It would still be better than all of those for sentries while narrowing a gap that will only continue to be reduced. What I have suggested is buffing other HACs and try to create niches for them. As you said, once the Ishtar is nerfed to the point it is more viable to fly an easier accessible and easier to train for ship another will just replace it. This leads to a continuous need to adjust ships.

No, if the Ishtar is nerfed to where people are using other ships it is because they are chasing the full flight of sentries on a cruiser. Right now the Ishtar does it best, but if only the Ishtar loses them, then the problem hasn't been addressed, which is a full flight of bonuses sentries on a cruiser hull. That's why there's been proposal to not allow a full flight of sentries. Simple as that. You still get your range and tracking, but no longer have the full damage that makes it OP. And I would much prefer having sentries remain as they are rather than needing a class of drones used by other balanced ships.

And buff all the other HACs? Are you familiar with the term power creep?

The Stratios can field 4 and if it was more readily available would be used more than an Ishtar. The full flight of sentries makes it unique and fills a niche. When I say buff, I do not mean give every ship more DPS. Gallente is known for DPS, Minmatar is know for speed, Amarr for tank, and Caldari for range.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1126 - 2014-08-06 05:01:50 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:

It wasn't an argument. You built a strawman and I knocked it down.


You don't even know what strawman means, do you?

The assertion that sentry drones are battleship tier weapons is not disputable. It's not up for debate, it's not a matter of opinion, and it's not my interpretation.

They are battleship weapons.

And they do not belong on a cruiser size ship. That's where the imbalance lies.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#1127 - 2014-08-06 05:04:35 UTC
Maybe if you drop the drone bay down from 375 to 200?

It would still retain the advantages of drones but reduce sustainability. And it creates a need to compromised between adaptability from light and medium drones and replacements from losses.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1128 - 2014-08-06 05:11:05 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
Maybe if you drop the drone bay down from 375 to 200?

It would still retain the advantages of drones but reduce sustainability. And it creates a need to compromised between adaptability from light and medium drones and replacements from losses.


Personally, I think it either needs to have sentries taken from it (and everything else that isn't a battleship) entirely.

That, or chop it's bandwidth down to 100mb. The dronebay I have no issue with, it's not viable to shoot the five it puts out in the first place, so reducing it's ability to replace it with five more doesn't help anything.

I would prefer just making sentry drones require a role bonus, like cov ops cloaks do. That addresses several other problems and not just the Ishtar. Sentries are a one stop shop, to put it mildly.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1129 - 2014-08-06 05:16:01 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

It wasn't an argument. You built a strawman and I knocked it down.


You don't even know what strawman means, do you?

The assertion that sentry drones are battleship tier weapons is not disputable. It's not up for debate, it's not a matter of opinion, and it's not my interpretation.

They are battleship weapons.

And they do not belong on a cruiser size ship. That's where the imbalance lies.

I know exactly what it means. You created an argument I never made based on your own talking points. Please refer to post #183 for CCP Rise's thoughts on the class of sentries.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1130 - 2014-08-06 05:46:03 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
The Stratios can field 4 and if it was more readily available would be used more than an Ishtar.
Why do you say that?
Janice en Marland wrote:
The full flight of sentries makes it unique and fills a niche. When I say buff, I do not mean give every ship more DPS. Gallente is known for DPS, Minmatar is know for speed, Amarr for tank, and Caldari for range.
And power creep isn't just dps either. It wouls be much easier to say each HAC already has a good niche (sans a few tweaks) if it weren't for the Ishtar doing them better. Remember how the Eagle was supposed to be the choice ship for long range dps (as is the focus of railguns) and how the ishtar did it better? Also notice how each race has two HACs each with a different specialization? In fact, pretty much any ship with weapons as their specialty is overshadowed by the ishtar. Thankfully the vagabond is all speed and the sacrilege is more tank-leaning. Otherwise they would be screwed too.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1131 - 2014-08-06 06:01:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Janice en Marland
Rowells wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
The Stratios can field 4 and if it was more readily available would be used more than an Ishtar.
Why do you say that?
Janice en Marland wrote:
The full flight of sentries makes it unique and fills a niche. When I say buff, I do not mean give every ship more DPS. Gallente is known for DPS, Minmatar is know for speed, Amarr for tank, and Caldari for range.
And power creep isn't just dps either. It wouls be much easier to say each HAC already has a good niche (sans a few tweaks) if it weren't for the Ishtar doing them better. Remember how the Eagle was supposed to be the choice ship for long range dps (as is the focus of railguns) and how the ishtar did it better? Also notice how each race has two HACs each with a different specialization? In fact, pretty much any ship with weapons as their specialty is overshadowed by the ishtar. Thankfully the vagabond is all speed and the sacrilege is more tank-leaning. Otherwise they would be screwed too.

The Stratios can use a Covert Ops cloak. Its faster, more agile, can fit a better shield tank and has better cap.

Adding more optimal to an Eagle while adding even room for only a full flight of light drones would help alot.

Edit: The Stratios also has more CPU/PG and 1 more high slot and rig slot.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1132 - 2014-08-06 06:15:04 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
You created an argument I never made based on your own talking points.


I directly quoted you, and then called you out on your doubletalk.

You are directly opposing change, and you tried to claim that people who want the Ishtar nerfed are the ones who aren't able to deal with change.

You're an enormous hypocrite.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1133 - 2014-08-06 06:31:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Sara Tosa
what about repurposing those stupid defender missile into drone killers?
make them fast, longish range and auto shooting with an aoe (7km) that effect only drones or missile so they can hit a full missile volley or drone/sentry flight.
they could just be ecm instead of damage, missiles lose x seconds of flight time, drones stop firing for x seconds (I would suggest 5 seconds, so its two drone cycles) each hit.
add a defender resist module in low so drone/missile ships have to chose between dps or resist
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1134 - 2014-08-06 07:03:57 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
You created an argument I never made based on your own talking points.


I directly quoted you, and then called you out on your doubletalk.

You are directly opposing change, and you tried to claim that people who want the Ishtar nerfed are the ones who aren't able to deal with change.

You're an enormous hypocrite.

I directly oppose a huge nerf that would make the Ishtar not worth flying. I also believe other HACs need buffed.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1135 - 2014-08-06 07:09:04 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
The Stratios can use a Covert Ops cloak. Its faster, more agile, can fit a better shield tank and has better cap.

Adding more optimal to an Eagle while adding even room for only a full flight of light drones would help alot.

So, no issues with the lost drone or the application bonuses? Also ishtar is faster than stratios. And as far as I've fitted the shield tanks are relatively the same.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1136 - 2014-08-06 07:09:25 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

It wasn't an argument. You built a strawman and I knocked it down.


You don't even know what strawman means, do you?

The assertion that sentry drones are battleship tier weapons is not disputable. It's not up for debate, it's not a matter of opinion, and it's not my interpretation.

They are battleship weapons.

And they do not belong on a cruiser size ship. That's where the imbalance lies.


You're right.

I do kind of like the flavour though so to my mind I don't mind sentries on an Ishtar IF it has suitable compromises.

And for those compromises I'd be looking at: much slower - snipers die when caught and are traditionally slow, less hull bonuses baked in requiring fitting compromises to make it work AND keep the levels of damage they enjoy.

So for example the drone control range bonus might be dropped forcing DLA - in conjunction with a CPU nerf (numbers tbc) that might be useful and means they can be pretty easily countered by longer range ships. I'd be aiming for something that results in approximately trading a DDA for a DLA. Of course this would also reqiure a cap nerf and/or a speed nerf. Potentially also pushing a mid to a low in conjunction with these.

Not that is has to be those specific things I suggest but I'm not dead set against smaller stuff using sentries if they have suitable sacrifices to do so and I'd prefer those to be options, I like options. My ideas are just that, ideas on how to keep options/choices varied.

Granted it might be easier to just bin the sentries, I can see that but like I said I quite like options and the general flavour.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1137 - 2014-08-06 07:38:33 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
The Stratios can use a Covert Ops cloak. Its faster, more agile, can fit a better shield tank and has better cap.

Adding more optimal to an Eagle while adding even room for only a full flight of light drones would help alot.

So, no issues with the lost drone or the application bonuses? Also ishtar is faster than stratios. And as far as I've fitted the shield tanks are relatively the same.

If you are talking about the Ishtar HAC bonuses, no I do not think there is as much an issue. The Ishtar seems built to be a sentry ship.

The Ishtar with 1 Nano and 1 Experimental MWD is showing 1819 m/s for me while a Stratios is showing 1875m/s. The Ishtar will have higher resists but a Stratios can obtain a lot higher buffer if you take into account the extra rig slot and base shield hp. I also forgot to add the Stratios has a larger drone bay.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1138 - 2014-08-06 07:57:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Janice en Marland wrote:
If you are talking about the Ishtar HAC bonuses, no I do not think there is as much an issue. The Ishtar seems built to be a sentry ship.

The Ishtar with 1 Nano and 1 Experimental MWD is showing 1819 m/s for me while a Stratios is showing 1875m/s. The Ishtar will have higher resists but a Stratios can obtain a lot higher buffer if you take into account the extra rig slot and base shield hp. I also forgot to add the Stratios has a larger drone bay.
I'll give on the speed, forgot to factor in mass. However I still dont see any difference in tank. In fact fitting for best shield (w/prop mod) i have ishtar as the best tank, not to mention smaller sig and capacitor lasts longer (and if my fitter is right its stable)

And i'm still curious as to how much you dislike losing that extra sentry.
Knoppaz
distress signals
#1139 - 2014-08-06 08:05:21 UTC
Guys, it's all nice with all the Sentry rage and Ishtar hate, but don't you all forget something regarding the topic of this thread..? What about all the other HAC? Might be worth to give the Ishtar a break and instead talk about those..

The Muninn for example. IMHO it should be a 5-5-5 ship. That utility high is absolute non-sense so make it a med slot instead and switching a low to a med would make the Muninn versatile in the best Minmatar tradition. Fit whatever you want, shield tank or armor tank, full rack of sensor boosters or a good mix of gyros and tracking enhancers, everything works.

..or the Sacrilege. This ship isn't that bad. It has two main problems:
1. It feels sluggish. Even with MWD it feels like using an AB. An agility-push would be nice, CCP.
2. It's missing a low. That utility high is nice, but a low instead would be far more useful (e.g. for a BCU, IS or EANM) Just leave the meds alone.

..or.. your turn ;)

BTW, don't try to see everything only from your perspective. Reading all the Ishtar posts everything is about huge range and/or huge fleets..
You know, not everything in EVE is huge fleets or long range so please try to see it from a wider angle. If a ship doesn't work with you playstyle doesn't mean it's total crap ;)

Knoppaz / distressSIGNALS http://distresssignals.tumblr.com

a capsuleer's way to insanity
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1140 - 2014-08-06 08:09:19 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
If you are talking about the Ishtar HAC bonuses, no I do not think there is as much an issue. The Ishtar seems built to be a sentry ship.

The Ishtar with 1 Nano and 1 Experimental MWD is showing 1819 m/s for me while a Stratios is showing 1875m/s. The Ishtar will have higher resists but a Stratios can obtain a lot higher buffer if you take into account the extra rig slot and base shield hp. I also forgot to add the Stratios has a larger drone bay.
I'll give on the speed, forgot to factor in mass. However I still dont see any difference in tank. In fact fitting for best shield (w/prop mod) i have ishtar as the best tank, not to mention smaller sig, and a stable capacitor.

And i'm still curious as to how much you dislike losing that extra sentry.

I see my mistake. You are right on the tank, sig and more cap stable. The loss of a sentry would be bad for an Ishtar just for the fact the Stratios would be so similar. In fact, I think I might have talked myself into selling the Ishtar and buying a Stratios. That Cover Ops cloak is huge.