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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#1081 - 2014-08-05 21:02:43 UTC
Falin Whalen wrote:
Taleden wrote:


Yes, obviously, *right now* sentry drones have no ship class restriction and they can be deployed by any ship with the bandwidth. Nobody is saying that's not true *right now*. But this is an F&I thread about rebalancing -- just because something currently *is*, that doesn't mean it *should be*.

Full flights of sentry (and heavy) drones deliver DPS that is comparable to large turret and missile systems, at ranges comparable to large weapons. That's why we call them "battleship class" weapons, and that's why they don't belong on cruiser class hulls. It's poor game balance, and it will always be poor game balance, no matter how much you personally enjoy being able to use oversized weapons on a small, fast and resilient platform.

But if it will put an end to this ridiculous head-in-sand "they aren't battleship weapons" argument (and I know it won't, but let's pretend people are reasonable), how about some numbers. The goal here is to make things as comparable as possible, so that means:

  • All 5 skills, no implants
  • For gun boats, 8 turrets with a 5%/level damage or ROF bonus, for 10 effective turrets
  • For drone boats, 5 sentry drones with a 10%/level damage bonus, for 7.5 effective sentry drones
  • All T2 long-range weapons with standard T1 high-DPS/short-range ammo, not considering reloads
  • No damage or tracking modules (since they're now available equally for both turrets and drones)


Under those conditions, here is the damage, optimal, falloff, tracking and signature resolution of various large and medium weapons systems, conveniently labeled (L) for large turrets, (M) for medium turrets, and (S) for sentry drones:

  • (L) Tachyon Beam Laser II: 455dps @ 33+25km, 0.0174rad/s, 400m res
  • (L) 425mm Railgun II: 400dps @ 36+30km, 0.01263rad/s, 400m res
  • (L) 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II: 336dps @ 30+44km, 0.01125rad/s, 400m res
  • (S) Garde II: 421dps @ 30+18km, 0.036rad/s, 400m res
  • (S) Curator II: 396dps @ 52+12km, 0.0276rad/s, 400m res
  • (S) Bouncer II: 371dps @ 52+48km, 0.0192rad/s, 400m res
  • (S) Warden II: 346dps @ 75+42km, 0.012rad/s, 400m res
  • (M) Heavy Beam Laser II: 395dps @ 15+10km, 0.03712rad/s, 125m res
  • (M) 250mm Railgun II: 406dps @ 18+15km, 0.02566rad/s, 125m res
  • (M) 720mm Howitzer Artillery II: 280dps @ 15+22km, 0.02612rad/s, 125m res


Your first clue is the turret signature resolution, which is 400 on large turrets and sentry drones, and 125 on medium turrets. That right there tells you that sentry drones are, on some level, intended as "battleship class" weapons which are expected to shoot at battleship sized targets.

Your next clue is the DPS-to-range tradeoff. Yes, medium lasers and rails rival large turret DPS, but at a significant range penalty; sentry drones have DPS similar to large turrets, range generally greater than large turrets, and tracking far in excess of large turrets (approaching that of medium turrets). Remember also that sentry drones are stationary, so their host ship can speed/sig tank without hurting the sentry drones (already amazing) damage application.

Sentry drones are wack. Gardes are the worst, but they're all a little too good, and putting them on a cruiser hull is just indefensible to start with. Giving that hull additional bonuses to range and tracking that make them apply damage better than medium turrets, at ranges better than large turrets, ... I don't even have words.

Nope, no empty quotes here.

This here CCP, is why Sentries are really the main problem, and not the Ishtar hull itself. Heavies are fine as the travel time and orbit speed make applying damage to small targets difficult, if not downright impossible, a drawback Sentries lack when the fight has moved and the small stuff is 70+ km away, easily within Warden optimal, and trivially within tracking at such ranges despite how fast that small stuff is flying.



The numbers show that sentries are right in the middle. Gardens are doing low end Battleship damage, only slightly more than the best medium turret, and at medium turret ranges. The rest are doing mid range medium damage at large ranges.

Add in the lack of implants and boosters, and there is still no passive low slot tracking/range module, and that you can shoot them, and that much of their range is wasted unless you fit a lot of drone control modules, and they don't compare too badly. They are a bit weak at the BS level, and strong at the cruiser/battlecruiser level.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1082 - 2014-08-05 21:16:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Nvm, stupid moment.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Taleden
North Wind Local no. 612
#1083 - 2014-08-05 21:22:43 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
The numbers show that sentries are right in the middle. Gardens are doing low end Battleship damage, only slightly more than the best medium turret, and at medium turret ranges. The rest are doing mid range medium damage at large ranges.


Gardes do better than "low end" battleship damage, they're almost a match for lasers; they do more DPS than large rails or projectiles, and that's not even factoring in reload times, which will reduce rail/proj DPS even further. I'll grant that their range (30+18km) is more or less between the best medium (15+22km) and the worst large (33+25km), but the other sentry drones offer *much* better range at only a modest DPS and tracking penalty.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1084 - 2014-08-05 21:46:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Adrie Atticus
Mike Voidstar wrote:


The numbers show that sentries are right in the middle. Gardens are doing low end Battleship damage, only slightly more than the best medium turret, and at medium turret ranges. The rest are doing mid range medium damage at large ranges.

Add in the lack of implants and boosters, and there is still no passive low slot tracking/range module, and that you can shoot them, and that much of their range is wasted unless you fit a lot of drone control modules, and they don't compare too badly. They are a bit weak at the BS level, and strong at the cruiser/battlecruiser level.


What is an Omnidirectional Tracking Link then?

Did you also forget to look at the tracking which is on par with medium turret systems at BS level of DPS?
stoicfaux
#1085 - 2014-08-05 21:53:57 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:


The numbers show that sentries are right in the middle. Gardens are doing low end Battleship damage, only slightly more than the best medium turret, and at medium turret ranges. The rest are doing mid range medium damage at large ranges.

Add in the lack of implants and boosters, and there is still no passive low slot tracking/range module, and that you can shoot them, and that much of their range is wasted unless you fit a lot of drone control modules, and they don't compare too badly. They are a bit weak at the BS level, and strong at the cruiser/battlecruiser level.


What is an Omnidirectional Tracking Link then?

Did you also forget to look at the tracking which is on par with medium turret systems at BS level of DPS?

You mean Omnidirectional Tracking Enhancer.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Taleden
North Wind Local no. 612
#1086 - 2014-08-05 21:55:21 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
...
and there is still no passive low slot tracking/range module,
...


What is an Omnidirectional Tracking Link then?


You mean the Omnidirectional Tracking Enhancer, but yes, they do exist now. (Links are the active mid slot modules that have been around awhile)
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1087 - 2014-08-05 21:56:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Sara Tosa
stoicfaux wrote:
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Wouldn't it be simpler to just remove sentry drones from the game? From ship balance to server load, so many problems would be solved (for varying definitions of solved.)


And if we took out POS's, they wouldn't have to fix the POS code. And instead of balancing T3's they could just take them out of the game too, that's sure to be a messy rebalance. Roll

Okay, Mr. Slippery Slope, how about introducing "medium" sized sentry drones for cruisers and restrict the current "heavy" sentry drones to battleships. (And introduce fighter sized sentry drones for carriers.)


gila, +500% damage and hit bonus to medium sentry drones.
ishtar would look tame.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1088 - 2014-08-05 22:29:58 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Falin Whalen wrote:
Taleden wrote:


Yes, obviously, *right now* sentry drones have no ship class restriction and they can be deployed by any ship with the bandwidth. Nobody is saying that's not true *right now*. But this is an F&I thread about rebalancing -- just because something currently *is*, that doesn't mean it *should be*.

Full flights of sentry (and heavy) drones deliver DPS that is comparable to large turret and missile systems, at ranges comparable to large weapons. That's why we call them "battleship class" weapons, and that's why they don't belong on cruiser class hulls. It's poor game balance, and it will always be poor game balance, no matter how much you personally enjoy being able to use oversized weapons on a small, fast and resilient platform.

But if it will put an end to this ridiculous head-in-sand "they aren't battleship weapons" argument (and I know it won't, but let's pretend people are reasonable), how about some numbers. The goal here is to make things as comparable as possible, so that means:

  • All 5 skills, no implants
  • For gun boats, 8 turrets with a 5%/level damage or ROF bonus, for 10 effective turrets
  • For drone boats, 5 sentry drones with a 10%/level damage bonus, for 7.5 effective sentry drones
  • All T2 long-range weapons with standard T1 high-DPS/short-range ammo, not considering reloads
  • No damage or tracking modules (since they're now available equally for both turrets and drones)


Under those conditions, here is the damage, optimal, falloff, tracking and signature resolution of various large and medium weapons systems, conveniently labeled (L) for large turrets, (M) for medium turrets, and (S) for sentry drones:

  • (L) Tachyon Beam Laser II: 455dps @ 33+25km, 0.0174rad/s, 400m res
  • (L) 425mm Railgun II: 400dps @ 36+30km, 0.01263rad/s, 400m res
  • (L) 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II: 336dps @ 30+44km, 0.01125rad/s, 400m res
  • (S) Garde II: 421dps @ 30+18km, 0.036rad/s, 400m res
  • (S) Curator II: 396dps @ 52+12km, 0.0276rad/s, 400m res
  • (S) Bouncer II: 371dps @ 52+48km, 0.0192rad/s, 400m res
  • (S) Warden II: 346dps @ 75+42km, 0.012rad/s, 400m res
  • (M) Heavy Beam Laser II: 395dps @ 15+10km, 0.03712rad/s, 125m res
  • (M) 250mm Railgun II: 406dps @ 18+15km, 0.02566rad/s, 125m res
  • (M) 720mm Howitzer Artillery II: 280dps @ 15+22km, 0.02612rad/s, 125m res


Your first clue is the turret signature resolution, which is 400 on large turrets and sentry drones, and 125 on medium turrets. That right there tells you that sentry drones are, on some level, intended as "battleship class" weapons which are expected to shoot at battleship sized targets.

Your next clue is the DPS-to-range tradeoff. Yes, medium lasers and rails rival large turret DPS, but at a significant range penalty; sentry drones have DPS similar to large turrets, range generally greater than large turrets, and tracking far in excess of large turrets (approaching that of medium turrets). Remember also that sentry drones are stationary, so their host ship can speed/sig tank without hurting the sentry drones (already amazing) damage application.

Sentry drones are wack. Gardes are the worst, but they're all a little too good, and putting them on a cruiser hull is just indefensible to start with. Giving that hull additional bonuses to range and tracking that make them apply damage better than medium turrets, at ranges better than large turrets, ... I don't even have words.

Nope, no empty quotes here.

This here CCP, is why Sentries are really the main problem, and not the Ishtar hull itself. Heavies are fine as the travel time and orbit speed make applying damage to small targets difficult, if not downright impossible, a drawback Sentries lack when the fight has moved and the small stuff is 70+ km away, easily within Warden optimal, and trivially within tracking at such ranges despite how fast that small stuff is flying.



The numbers show that sentries are right in the middle. Gardens are doing low end Battleship damage, only slightly more than the best medium turret, and at medium turret ranges. The rest are doing mid range medium damage at large ranges.

Add in the lack of implants and boosters, and there is still no passive low slot tracking/range module, and that you can shoot them, and that much of their range is wasted unless you fit a lot of drone control modules, and they don't compare too badly. They are a bit weak at the BS level, and strong at the cruiser/battlecruiser level.



All that while trackign 3 tiem sbetter then the best large turrets.... That is why I keep sayign HALVE sentries tracking

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1089 - 2014-08-05 22:37:14 UTC
It is well beyond medium turret ranges. Stick ammo in the medium turrets to get them out to garde range and then compare DPS...
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#1090 - 2014-08-05 22:50:29 UTC
afkalt wrote:
It is well beyond medium turret ranges. Stick ammo in the medium turrets to get them out to garde range and then compare DPS...


Yes, and can you check the figures for 720mm artillery - that is truly crap DPS.

Also, I wonder if these figures take into account reloads on the 720s ...
Taleden
North Wind Local no. 612
#1091 - 2014-08-05 23:07:12 UTC
Rab See wrote:
afkalt wrote:
It is well beyond medium turret ranges. Stick ammo in the medium turrets to get them out to garde range and then compare DPS...


Yes, and can you check the figures for 720mm artillery - that is truly crap DPS.

Also, I wonder if these figures take into account reloads on the 720s ...


As I mentioned in the post, no, those numbers do not account for reload time on the rails or artillery.

But for reference, here's what happens to medium damage when using ammo to match large/sentry range:


  • (L) Tachyon Beam Laser II (MF): 455dps @ 33+25km, 0.0174rad/s, 400m res
  • (L) 425mm Railgun II (AM): 400dps @ 36+30km, 0.01263rad/s, 400m res
  • (L) 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II (EMP): 336dps @ 30+44km, 0.01125rad/s, 400m res
  • (S) Garde II: 421dps @ 30+18km, 0.036rad/s, 400m res
  • (S) Curator II: 396dps @ 52+12km, 0.0276rad/s, 400m res
  • (S) Bouncer II: 371dps @ 52+48km, 0.0192rad/s, 400m res
  • (S) Warden II: 346dps @ 75+42km, 0.012rad/s, 400m res
  • (M) Heavy Beam Laser II (MF): 395dps @ 15+10km, 0.03712rad/s, 125m res
  • (M) 250mm Railgun II (AM): 406dps @ 18+15km, 0.02566rad/s, 125m res
  • (M) 720mm Howitzer Artillery II (EMP): 280dps @ 15+22km, 0.02612rad/s, 125m res
  • (M) Heavy Beam Laser II (MW): 198dps @ 42+10km, 0.03712rad/s, 125m res
  • (M) 250mm Railgun II (Tu): 203dps @ 50+15km, 0.02566rad/s, 125m res
  • (M) 720mm Howitzer Artillery II (Pro): 117dps @ 48+22km, 0.02743rad/s, 125m res
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1092 - 2014-08-05 23:32:45 UTC
I don't think it's necessarily sentries that are the problem, but having a full flight of 5 of them.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1093 - 2014-08-05 23:52:10 UTC
Rowells wrote:
I don't think it's necessarily sentries that are the problem, but having a full flight of 5 of them.



Thta is kind of implicit :P

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#1094 - 2014-08-06 00:18:13 UTC
That garde damage is maxxed out. I know for a fact that the numbers on hybrids are low, I have little experience with the others as I have only recently trained the other two turret systems.

It is my bad on the omni enhancers, I have not put a drone ship in space for nearly a year. That just leaves out implants and boosters, which are available to all other primary weapon systems.

I keep seeing this point about the sentries being stationary which helps their tracking being brought up as if it was a clear advantage. It also makes them simple to destroy, especially if the ship putting them out is trying to kite you. Stop fighting how the enemy wants. That simple.

I guess I don't see the problem because I have never cared about killboards. I don't have any PvP kills because my goals were defense of assets, not killmails... So I don't fit tackle and I don't care if the enemy gets away so long as he goes away. Seems perfectly acceptable to me to go for the drones and deny him his weapons. It's what used to happen all the time when you tried to use drones in PvP. They are not a joke anymore, but they still have low average damage with exceptional application and high resistance to ewar. That's just what they are, and if no one can be bothered to kill them that's a failure to adapt, not a failure to balance.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1095 - 2014-08-06 00:46:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
The problem with the approach of ... just shoot the sentries begins with
A - your spending valuable time shooting drones when you should be shooting the ship
B - your under fire the whole time but they aren't
C- if and when you do kill them .. they can simply replace them from whatever new position they are in
D- if you manage too kill the first set without dying yourself .. you then have too chase the new set dropped
E - is pretty much D again with the last set
F - if you have somehow killed all the drones .. (assuming your not killed by them first) can you still keep a tackle on the ship and kill it without .. idk being jumped by other ships ?

and this is just for 1vs1 solo situation ... imagine 50 ishtars or 100 with drones capable of alphaing ships off the field before they can even think of doing anything in return .. is that really a viable defense against sentries????

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1096 - 2014-08-06 01:06:38 UTC

  • (S) Garde II: 421dps @ 30+18km, 0.036rad/s, 400m res
  • (S) Curator II: 396dps @ 52+12km, 0.0276rad/s, 400m res
  • (S) Bouncer II: 371dps @ 52+48km, 0.0192rad/s, 400m res
  • (S) Warden II: 346dps @ 75+42km, 0.012rad/s, 400m res

Instead have Sentries like this:

  • (S) Garde II: 421dps @ 25+18km, 0.0197rad/s, 400m res
  • (S) Curator II: 346dps @ 42+12km, 0.0146rad/s, 400m res
  • (S) Bouncer II: 391dps @ 32+18km, 0.0172rad/s, 400m res
  • (S) Warden II: 376dps @ 37+12km, 0.0153rad/s, 400m res

There, the extreme range and excelent tracking problems of sentries are solved, and are in line with Battleship dps and tracking. This also solves the problem with sentry carriers as they don't turn into long range snipe boats, and will remove the 160km "deathzone" for subcaps to actually get on grid and do more than just leer menacingly at enemy carriers from 170km away.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#1097 - 2014-08-06 01:17:15 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
That garde damage is maxxed out. I know for a fact that the numbers on hybrids are low, I have little experience with the others as I have only recently trained the other two turret systems.

It is my bad on the omni enhancers, I have not put a drone ship in space for nearly a year. That just leaves out implants and boosters, which are available to all other primary weapon systems.





care to post a pic proving the damage is low on the hybrids. As eft and game agree with the numbers posted above with a maxed skilled no implants on a 5% dmg/lv ship .
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1098 - 2014-08-06 01:21:47 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

I'm going to assume it is to prevent from being alpha hit off the field. That is not my fit btw. All it takes is a scram and the Ishtar is no longer faster.


You really are just shiptoasting and actually not playing the game. Can you please elaborate, explain or show how you can apply scrams from a ship going max 700m/s to a ship going 2100m/s in a fleet situation?

Ceptors are a good idea, except they will be at sentry optimals and die to a few Ishtars in a single volley. Probing down one of them and warping in an Eagle takes 8 seconds minimum, Ishtars are over 16k away when you land and over 20k away when you achieve a lock.

This has nothing to do with the hulls but the fits being thrown around.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1099 - 2014-08-06 01:23:46 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

I'm going to assume it is to prevent from being alpha hit off the field. That is not my fit btw. All it takes is a scram and the Ishtar is no longer faster.


You really are just shiptoasting and actually not playing the game. Can you please elaborate, explain or show how you can apply scrams from a ship going max 700m/s to a ship going 2100m/s in a fleet situation?

Ceptors are a good idea, except they will be at sentry optimals and die to a few Ishtars in a single volley. Probing down one of them and warping in an Eagle takes 8 seconds minimum, Ishtars are over 16k away when you land and over 20k away when you achieve a lock.



What you expected from a character that does not have a single kill registered in its name on all history?


Stop Janice. You are not contributing. You are clearly biased and pushing towards your own agenda and perception with complete disregard for the factual informationt that "ishtars" are grossly overpowered and abused by everyone that can in eve right now. I put ishtars between quotes because that is an issue of sentries not Ishtars mostly.

Personal attacks now? My "agenda" is to prevent the Ishtar from being nerfed to oblivion by large alliance unable to keep up with rapid changes.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1100 - 2014-08-06 01:25:59 UTC
Marc Durant wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

I'm going to assume it is to prevent from being alpha hit off the field. That is not my fit btw. All it takes is a scram and the Ishtar is no longer faster.


You really are just shiptoasting and actually not playing the game. Can you please elaborate, explain or show how you can apply scrams from a ship going max 700m/s to a ship going 2100m/s in a fleet situation?

Ceptors are a good idea, except they will be at sentry optimals and die to a few Ishtars in a single volley. Probing down one of them and warping in an Eagle takes 8 seconds minimum, Ishtars are over 16k away when you land and over 20k away when you achieve a lock.



What you expected from a character that does not have a single kill registered in its name on all history?


Stop Janice. You are not contributing. You are clearly biased and pushing towards your own agenda and perception with complete disregard for the factual informationt that "ishtars" are grossly overpowered and abused by everyone that can in eve right now. I put ishtars between quotes because that is an issue of sentries not Ishtars mostly.


Yeah it's funny how that char's posts, all of them apart from 1, is all in this thread. Trying so very hard putting in tons of effort to go "no, nothing to see here, Ishtar's fine. move along please". It's hilarious.

The Ishtar is a lot more fine than it would be if it's bandwidth would be reduced or bonuses removed for certain drones. There are plenty of options that could take it's place with even a medium change to it's hull.