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Distance that you're being ejected out of a wormhole depends on mass

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Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#561 - 2014-08-05 11:29:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Papa Django wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:

Could you explain why rolling is "mandatory" for your corp?


Seriously ?

Ok, maybe CCP will read this, at least i am sure WH CSM is reading this.

Collapsing wh allow me to :

- Close our system if we want to farm or mine ore.
- Close a connexion we don't want if we can. If there is too many hostiles on that hole you cannot close it.
- Reroll the static to get a different content. Looking for, pve, pvp, HS or NS exit.
- Reroll the static because it is end of life and we don't know how many time is remaining.

Rek Seven wrote:

What class of wormhole do you live in?


Something between C1 and C6.

Rek Seven wrote:

How many active people do you have in your peak time zone?


A small number because i am in a small corp.


Well you will be happy to know that you can still do all this but it will be riskier and more time consuming. Glad i could help Blink

I know it sucks for smaller groups, which is why i think CCP should add a new way to close a hole... but that's a topic for another thread.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Papa Django
Materials Harvesting Kombinat
#562 - 2014-08-05 11:37:51 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:

Exploit definition: make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource). or Make use of (a situation) in a way considered unfair or underhand

Seems like an apt description to me.


Seems not to me. It is just the whormoles core mechanics.

If CCP consider it as an exploit, they should fix it.

Rek Seven wrote:

How does this prevent people from functioning? I agree that it changes the way or what people will do in wormhole space but i disagree that people will not be able to function.


Yes, you can still move without legs. You can Lol
This is not an argument.

The main issue is : Something is broken in this game, the safer place in all EVE is the renters zone in nullsec. Even highsec is more dangerous.
W-Space is by far the more dangerous area.

So what is the purpose of this ? Why getting wh more dangerous and not fixing that f...... nullsec ?

It is pure non-sense.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#563 - 2014-08-05 11:41:04 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:


Dude, right under my name, take a look at the alliance i'm with.... I'm not the one from a scrub alliance so you couldn't even begin to educate me on wormhole space.

Disagree with me all you want and continue to share your personal feelings with everyone but until you answer the questions i originally asked you, i'll take it as you not having any valid arguments.

For your convenience:

How does this change make it impossible for farmers to run sites?
Wouldn't less farming increase the value of sleeper salvage and solve the income issue with low class wormholes?
Instead of them criting the hole or rolling it and using the exploit of not warping to the new wormhole so it doesn't spawn, can't they just anchor a bubble or put a scout on the WH?


Reply.
1. I have never said it would make it impossible for farmers to run sites, that is your comment. The issue is far more wide reaching than this.
2. No it would not. There needs to be demand as well to support higher prices.
3. Wormhole mechanics are not an exploit.
4. What have those suggestions got to do with anything? Are you totally focused on farming to the exclusion of all other wormhole activities?


Nothing happens in isolation, a change of this magnitude ripples right through wormhole space, the issue is that people focus on one tiny part of the effects, for you it is farmers and putting hole control in place, so in your eyes nothing is of importance.
You may be in a wormhole corp, and that is good, i am pleased you have the experience, but no one has the experience of every aspect, it is complex, and others clearly have experience in depth of other areas, and large, small and medium sized corps, PVE PVP and just destroy everything corps are all horrified by this change.
Putting a can and bubble on a hole is beyond irrelevant in this issue.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Papa Django
Materials Harvesting Kombinat
#564 - 2014-08-05 11:42:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Papa Django
Rek Seven wrote:

Well you will be happy to know that you can still do all this but it will be riskier and more time consuming. Glad i could help Blink


I don't want to risk more, it is riskier enough already.
I don't want to spend more time on these logistics things.

I don't see why you want to ruin my game experience with no reasons (you have not given any reason to support that change).

What do you think you can gain from all this ?

Rek Seven wrote:

I know it sucks for smaller groups, which is why i think CCP should add a new way to close a hole... but that's a topic for another thread.


No it is the main issue here. A vision. (EDIT : I mean, the lack of vision in this tweak, and i think a bit of lack of knowledge too)
Glasgow Dunlop
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#565 - 2014-08-05 11:47:58 UTC
Is fozzie making that horrible change for the sake of making a change, as it just seems strange, if you were jumping a hole why not come out the other side the same speed you went in from the same distance?

@glasgowdunlop #tweetfleet

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AtomYcX
Perkone
Caldari State
#566 - 2014-08-05 11:54:10 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
I know it sucks for smaller groups, which is why i think CCP should add a new way to close a hole... but that's a topic for another thread.


BOMBING WORMHOLES! YOUR TIME HAS COME!
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#567 - 2014-08-05 11:59:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
It seems clear to me that CCP has two goals with this change:

1. Make it more difficult to rage roll
2. Make it riskier to roll in general

If you're against this, they will want to know why. Saying don't change it because it's always been this way will not persuade them to cancel their plans.

I'm only trying to help here guys!Blink

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Papa Django
Materials Harvesting Kombinat
#568 - 2014-08-05 12:04:15 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
It seems clear to me that CCP has two goals with this change:

1. Make it more difficult to rage roll
2. Make it riskier to roll in general

If you're against this, they will want to know why. Saying don't change it because it's always been this way will not persuade them to cancel their plans.


This is not the way this should work.

They should tell us first why they want to make these changes. Then discuss.

We have told you and CCP why we don't want this "thing" to come on tranquility. Because it remove the ability to roll cnx whitout adding anything.

Ability to roll is ability to find new content when you are stuck because static is empty. If we can't, we just have to stay in POS and log off from the game.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#569 - 2014-08-05 12:05:06 UTC
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#570 - 2014-08-05 12:07:15 UTC
BayneNothos wrote:
corbexx wrote:


The slight issue here is that all that takes time. not alot but still time. The otherpeople had that wh. you jump through you still have to have some one burn 150plus km.doing 3km a sec is still a min (yeah ok you can do that before the cap goes through). You then have to align and get webbed which doesnt take long but at this point your agressed so if anything goes wrong logging off is now a real issue. then realign which in a cap takes a little while (not long but this isnt a interceptor we're talking about) all they have to do is land a hic or dic and bubble up before you start your warp back. and yeah you coudl fight your way through but some times you don't have numbers and need to quickly colapse in some ones face.


If you need to snap shut a WH so fast that a Dictor/HIC is going to land inside that time, shouldn't there be risk involved in that? Right now it's fleet jumps out, fleet jumps back and unless someone gets a freak bump or the WH gods throw you outside jump range you're fully safe.


I think a lot of you folks are focussed on the little picture. How this change will make this or that more or less fun. I'm asking you to look at the bigger picture. What does wh space have that has made it what it is? WH mechanics.

The big 3 are:
1. no local
2. mass limits
3. polarization timers

These 3 things are what made/makes wh space what it is. Decloaking out of jump range takes away 1 of the 3 pillars of wh PVP - the ability to control wh mass. This change will take away that control. Some will argue it just adds risk to wh control.

Let's be honest - you catch a cap out of jump range - it's not gonna make it back. We're not a bunch of marmites camping th 4-4 undock. We know how to web. We know how to bump. Saying it adds risk is just crap. This change makes capital size loot pinatas. Larger corps are all for it. Smaller corps are all against it. It's pretty clear to all parties what this change is about. This is a clear choice by CCP to push the blob into wh space or stand up for the little guys.

This is about ganking guys rolling wh - it's not about pvp. This is cheap stuff pvp. Counter - get a 30 man t3 fleet to protect your rolling assets. If you don't have one, make one.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#571 - 2014-08-05 12:07:53 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Rek Seven wrote:
It seems clear to me that CCP has two goals with this change:

1. Make it more difficult to rage roll
2. Make it riskier to roll in general

If you're against this, they will want to know why. Saying don't change it because it's always been this way will not persuade them to cancel their plans.

I'm only trying to help here guys!Blink



Actually, I believe they have other goals with this.
I have suggested an alternative method of achieving their goals if I am right, using an equipment(ship) based methodology rather than changing wormhole physics for everyone. It is just a page or so back and you replied to part of it.

It addresses issues that may be causing a play style bottleneck, without disrupting other mechanics.

CCP are fully aware of the reasons why large corps, medium corps, small corps, PvE Corps PvP corps are all in disagreement with the proposed change. Unless they are totally disinterested, and that would not be in their own best interest. I do not believe they are like that.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#572 - 2014-08-05 12:11:01 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:

These 3 things are what made/makes wh space what it is. Decloaking out of jump range takes away 1 of the 3 pillars of wh PVP - the ability to control wh mass. This change will take away that control. Some will argue it just adds risk to wh control.


But was the ability for players to manipulate mass mechanics ever a design decision or was it a way to limit fleet/ship sizes to encourage small gangs?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#573 - 2014-08-05 12:14:16 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
BayneNothos wrote:
corbexx wrote:


The slight issue here is that all that takes time. not alot but still time. The otherpeople had that wh. you jump through you still have to have some one burn 150plus km.doing 3km a sec is still a min (yeah ok you can do that before the cap goes through). You then have to align and get webbed which doesnt take long but at this point your agressed so if anything goes wrong logging off is now a real issue. then realign which in a cap takes a little while (not long but this isnt a interceptor we're talking about) all they have to do is land a hic or dic and bubble up before you start your warp back. and yeah you coudl fight your way through but some times you don't have numbers and need to quickly colapse in some ones face.


If you need to snap shut a WH so fast that a Dictor/HIC is going to land inside that time, shouldn't there be risk involved in that? Right now it's fleet jumps out, fleet jumps back and unless someone gets a freak bump or the WH gods throw you outside jump range you're fully safe.


I think a lot of you folks are focussed on the little picture. How this change will make this or that more or less fun. I'm asking you to look at the bigger picture. What does wh space have that has made it what it is? WH mechanics.

The big 3 are:
1. no local
2. mass limits
3. polarization timers

These 3 things are what made/makes wh space what it is. Decloaking out of jump range takes away 1 of the 3 pillars of wh PVP - the ability to control wh mass. This change will take away that control. Some will argue it just adds risk to wh control.

Let's be honest - you catch a cap out of jump range - it's not gonna make it back. We're not a bunch of marmites camping th 4-4 undock. We know how to web. We know how to bump. Saying it adds risk is just crap. This change makes capital size loot pinatas. Larger corps are all for it. Smaller corps are all against it. It's pretty clear to all parties what this change is about. This is a clear choice by CCP to push the blob into wh space or stand up for the little guys.

This is about ganking guys rolling wh - it's not about pvp. This is cheap stuff pvp. Counter - get a 30 man t3 fleet to protect your rolling assets. If you don't have one, make one.



Lots of sense here, but, all sizes of wormhole corp are disliking this , large, medium and small PvP and PvE too.

However I could not say that non wormhole corps would be averse to reaping the benefits of the bloodbath, as they have no interest in the long term sustainability of wormhole life.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#574 - 2014-08-05 12:17:30 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:

These 3 things are what made/makes wh space what it is. Decloaking out of jump range takes away 1 of the 3 pillars of wh PVP - the ability to control wh mass. This change will take away that control. Some will argue it just adds risk to wh control.


But was the ability for players to manipulate mass mechanics ever a design decision or was it a way to limit fleet/ship sizes to encourage small gangs?

CCP never had a long term design decision for wormholes.
That is no reason to make them unpleasant to live in after the fact.
By all means let them put sand in the sandbox, that is right and proper, replacing the sand with ground glass is not acceptable.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Pavel Sohaj
BAND of MAGNUS
#575 - 2014-08-05 12:18:28 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Pavel Sohaj wrote:
... let people crit the hole and farm in peace.

Whats wrong with that?


There's nothing wrong with it but wormholes are supposed to be the most dangerous place to operate, so farming shouldn't be easy or peaceful IMO.

If you want to crit your hole, then you risk your ship getting caught off the hole and if you don't want to take the risk, you bubble your hole in an attempt to slow hostiles down a bit.


And if I want to jsut reroll? Risk or face sitting at POS all day long. Cool. Surely brings enough content for everybody.
AssassinationsdoneWrong
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#576 - 2014-08-05 12:19:18 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:

But was the ability for players to manipulate mass mechanics ever a design decision or was it a way to limit fleet/ship sizes to encourage small gangs?


Who cares what the original motives were? Do you think they even know? They have forgotten why or how they wrote the code for poses and you expect them to know why they put mass limits on?

Rek I agree with most of your posts most of the time but we can agree to disagree on this one. There is absolutely NO benefit from this change, to WH's, to content, to anything W-space oriented.

And let's not forget probably the most important single factor in such a huge change ....... CCP's proven ability to mess up every major change with disastrous results.

I also think your comments to the effect of "Yes it will be tougher on smaller corps so what?" just points to power bloc mentality.

The Nexus 7's

What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#577 - 2014-08-05 12:34:36 UTC
You all make some very valid points... I'll be interested to see if CCP respond to these concerns and refine their plans.

Ps. i love the ground glass comment and can't disagree that wormhole need more content over mechanic change. Big smile

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#578 - 2014-08-05 12:36:52 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:

These 3 things are what made/makes wh space what it is. Decloaking out of jump range takes away 1 of the 3 pillars of wh PVP - the ability to control wh mass. This change will take away that control. Some will argue it just adds risk to wh control.


But was the ability for players to manipulate mass mechanics ever a design decision or was it a way to limit fleet/ship sizes to encourage small gangs?



Who cares. It's a pillar. I'll play Rek Seven (cuz it's easy)

Explain to me how this change (the 40km thing) will make anything better. Please use only facts and stear clear of speculation and extrapolated BS.

If you can't answer me concisely then you have proven it's a bad change.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#579 - 2014-08-05 12:38:38 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
You all make some very valid points... I'll be interested to see if CCP respond to these concerns and refine their plans.

Ps. i love the ground glass comment and can't disagree that wormhole need more content over mechanic change. Big smile


Thanks Rek, we all truly want the same thing here, a vibrant space alive and thriving. With no playstyle dominating all others. We just need to steer CCP towards that goal, which is good for them too.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Kira Hhallas
Very Drunken Eve Flying Instructors
Brotherhood Of Silent Space
#580 - 2014-08-05 12:40:59 UTC
So here my 2 Cents to this Topic.
First sorry for my english.

So in the frist time i get negative Feelings for this idea but after some time i see the possibilities.
Please don't make the mistake to think only in the C5 / C6 World.
I think people in the lower WH will have more chance to get kills.

Rember the HS Wormholes, if you don't like what you see, you jump back to HS.
So with these change you will have the chance to shoot down the Pilot from HS.
Dual Web on the Ship and he will never get back into jump range in time.

Same at other WHs. You don't have to wait that the pilot jump back. Web him.
So I think the Change will most effect Cap Pilots, and not so much people who use BS to close.

If CCP change the income lvl from WH to a lvl where more people go to WH space, it will be more interesting for PVP.
So don't think so negative, think about the possibilities ......

Greatings from Austria .

Kira Hhallas - Austrian EvE Community - ingame =Österreich= - StoryPage - https://oneshotstorys.wordpress.com/ -

Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore perseverare