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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1001 - 2014-08-04 16:04:14 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Hardly double then, is it?

It is, however, less than half the DPS. And slower.

So yeah, tell me more about this "counter"

I think you might have figured out enough to use it.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1002 - 2014-08-04 16:31:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Janice en Marland wrote:
Odithia wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

It is not only about DPS. The Eagle has a much more formidable tank while being able to apply damage at a much further range.

At the range where the Eagle may be able to outdamage the Ishtar, it does such pathetic damage that it is completely useless anyway.
By the way the Ishtar does almost twice as much dps than the eagle at 150km.

The only used "long range" medium railgun ship is the Tengu and that's because it is faster and has twice as much EHP than the Eagle.

The Eagle can reach over twice the EHP of an Ishtar. DPS is not everything.

No. And for rails yes. Especially considering that even the highest damage rails only have the same damage as the longest range drones on an Ishtar.

Not sure if your trolling or just can't see the whole picture.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1003 - 2014-08-04 17:07:07 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
Odithia wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

It is not only about DPS. The Eagle has a much more formidable tank while being able to apply damage at a much further range.

At the range where the Eagle may be able to outdamage the Ishtar, it does such pathetic damage that it is completely useless anyway.
By the way the Ishtar does almost twice as much dps than the eagle at 150km.

The only used "long range" medium railgun ship is the Tengu and that's because it is faster and has twice as much EHP than the Eagle.

The Eagle can reach over twice the EHP of an Ishtar. DPS is not everything.

No. And for rails yes. Especially considering that even the highest damage rails only have the same damage as the longest range drones on an Ishtar.

Not sure if your trolling or just can't see the whole picture.

I just posted an Eagle fit with 114k EHP that is used in fleets. The Eagle receives resists bonuses. It is not unrealistic to expect it to have a better shield fit than an armor ship.
If your argument is that an Ishtar can deal higher DPS then I agree but DPS is not everything.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1004 - 2014-08-04 17:14:01 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

The Eagle can have way over double the tank of an Ishtar on a common fleet fit.


And that is completely irrelevant if the ishtar tank is already big enough so the logis keep it alive. Eagle tank will be overkill most of the time when you have logis. Overkill is something that does not help.

It is like killing a destroyer with a tempest with arties instead of a munin. Irrelevant.. its overkill. The munin is still better becuse it can track more and fire faster. On the same way the ishtar is better because it can deal more damage while also staying alive.

I find it completely relevant if you factor in alpha.




If that had been a problem we would not be seeing so many ishtar fleets would we?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1005 - 2014-08-04 17:17:22 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:

2xMag Stab
1xDCU2
1xPower Diagnostics System
2xLSE
2xInvul Field
1x EM Ward
1x10mn Afterburner
5x250mm Rail
2x Medium Core Field Extender


Okay, I took the stock shield Ishtar fleet fit and made one with your eagles, you'll be shooting the appropriate target (MWD'ing scimitar).

Gardes with 1x tracking script vs. CN Antimatter:

http://i.imgur.com/d9CWY6P.jpg

Bouncers with 1x tracking vs. CN iridium

http://i.imgur.com/i4gEOK3.jpg

Bouncers with 1x optimal vs. Spike

http://i.imgur.com/TyV17xG.jpg

Speed difference:
2178 vs 644

EHP:
54k vs 127k

BTW, 140km away with iridium you need 7 eagles jut to zero sum one scimi on the shield ishtars or 8 eagles to zeo sum one ishtar, so 20 scimies will mean you need over 140 eagles to kill one of the enemy ships if logi is awake.

I fail to see how eagles even stand a chance against something which they cannot catch at all. Remember, Eagles need to catch the Ishtars, but Ishtars only need to run away from the Eagles in a fashion where the Eagles are forced at the drone ranges. If you are going to counter this with "no one can manuever them that well" then I suggest you to schedule a fight with Tri. Ishtars.

Also consider that the Eagles will not be able to run away from bombs unless FC issues fleet warp within 1 second of first bomb showing up or if the fleet is aligned at all times. Ishtars can just outrun the bombs due to the speed advantage.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1006 - 2014-08-04 17:18:10 UTC
And that eagle fit will be spanked up and down by competent ishtars.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1007 - 2014-08-04 17:18:12 UTC
so its now monday and still no Rise in this thread for sometime

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1008 - 2014-08-04 17:21:13 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

The Eagle can have way over double the tank of an Ishtar on a common fleet fit.


And that is completely irrelevant if the ishtar tank is already big enough so the logis keep it alive. Eagle tank will be overkill most of the time when you have logis. Overkill is something that does not help.

It is like killing a destroyer with a tempest with arties instead of a munin. Irrelevant.. its overkill. The munin is still better becuse it can track more and fire faster. On the same way the ishtar is better because it can deal more damage while also staying alive.

I find it completely relevant if you factor in alpha.




If that had been a problem we would not be seeing so many ishtar fleets would we?

The Ishtar has decent alpha ability in large groups. We were discussing an Eagle fleets capability against an Ishtar fleet.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1009 - 2014-08-04 17:26:35 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

2xMag Stab
1xDCU2
1xPower Diagnostics System
2xLSE
2xInvul Field
1x EM Ward
1x10mn Afterburner
5x250mm Rail
2x Medium Core Field Extender


Okay, I took the stock shield Ishtar fleet fit and made one with your eagles, you'll be shooting the appropriate target (MWD'ing scimitar).

Gardes with 1x tracking script vs. CN Antimatter:

http://i.imgur.com/d9CWY6P.jpg

Bouncers with 1x tracking vs. CN iridium

http://i.imgur.com/i4gEOK3.jpg

Bouncers with 1x optimal vs. Spike

http://i.imgur.com/TyV17xG.jpg

Speed difference:
2178 vs 644

EHP:
54k vs 127k

BTW, 140km away with iridium you need 7 eagles jut to zero sum one scimi on the shield ishtars or 8 eagles to zeo sum one ishtar, so 20 scimies will mean you need over 140 eagles to kill one of the enemy ships if logi is awake.

I fail to see how eagles even stand a chance against something which they cannot catch at all. Remember, Eagles need to catch the Ishtars, but Ishtars only need to run away from the Eagles in a fashion where the Eagles are forced at the drone ranges. If you are going to counter this with "no one can manuever them that well" then I suggest you to schedule a fight with Tri. Ishtars.

Also consider that the Eagles will not be able to run away from bombs unless FC issues fleet warp within 1 second of first bomb showing up or if the fleet is aligned at all times. Ishtars can just outrun the bombs due to the speed advantage.

Yes Eagles(by their selves) would stand no chance of beating an Ishtar/Logistics fleet.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1010 - 2014-08-04 17:27:35 UTC
afkalt wrote:
And that eagle fit will be spanked up and down by competent ishtars.

And Ishtars get spanked by competent pilots of other HACs and cruisers.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1011 - 2014-08-04 17:29:53 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

The Eagle can have way over double the tank of an Ishtar on a common fleet fit.


And that is completely irrelevant if the ishtar tank is already big enough so the logis keep it alive. Eagle tank will be overkill most of the time when you have logis. Overkill is something that does not help.

It is like killing a destroyer with a tempest with arties instead of a munin. Irrelevant.. its overkill. The munin is still better becuse it can track more and fire faster. On the same way the ishtar is better because it can deal more damage while also staying alive.

I find it completely relevant if you factor in alpha.




If that had been a problem we would not be seeing so many ishtar fleets would we?

The Ishtar has decent alpha ability in large groups. We were discussing an Eagle fleets capability against an Ishtar fleet.



Ishtars deal ith toehr ishtars that have even HIGHER alpha strike.. therefore your point is moot.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1012 - 2014-08-04 17:30:47 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
afkalt wrote:
And that eagle fit will be spanked up and down by competent ishtars.

And Ishtars get spanked by competent pilots of other HACs and cruisers.



LOL in what magical world you live? Ishtar will not get spanked by other hacs.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1013 - 2014-08-04 17:33:06 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
afkalt wrote:
And that eagle fit will be spanked up and down by competent ishtars.

And Ishtars get spanked by competent pilots of other HACs and cruisers.



LOL in what magical world you live? Ishtar will not get spanked by other hacs.

It happens every day. Killboards have been mentioned numerous times. The HACs are far more balanced than some want to admit.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1014 - 2014-08-04 17:36:41 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
Odithia wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

It is not only about DPS. The Eagle has a much more formidable tank while being able to apply damage at a much further range.

At the range where the Eagle may be able to outdamage the Ishtar, it does such pathetic damage that it is completely useless anyway.
By the way the Ishtar does almost twice as much dps than the eagle at 150km.

The only used "long range" medium railgun ship is the Tengu and that's because it is faster and has twice as much EHP than the Eagle.

The Eagle can reach over twice the EHP of an Ishtar. DPS is not everything.

No. And for rails yes. Especially considering that even the highest damage rails only have the same damage as the longest range drones on an Ishtar.

Not sure if your trolling or just can't see the whole picture.

I just posted an Eagle fit with 114k EHP that is used in fleets. The Eagle receives resists bonuses. It is not unrealistic to expect it to have a better shield fit than an armor ship.
If your argument is that an Ishtar can deal higher DPS then I agree but DPS is not everything.

You just totally ignored the speed thing didn't you.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1015 - 2014-08-04 17:44:34 UTC
Rowells wrote:

You just totally ignored the speed thing didn't you.[/quote]
With the proposed changes the Eagle will be faster with smaller sig radius.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1016 - 2014-08-04 17:52:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Adrie Atticus
Janice en Marland wrote:
Rowells wrote:

You just totally ignored the speed thing didn't you.

With the proposed changes the Eagle will be faster with smaller sig radius.


Mmmh, not with your fit.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1017 - 2014-08-04 17:56:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Janice en Marland wrote:
Rowells wrote:

You just totally ignored the speed thing didn't you.

With the proposed changes the Eagle will be faster with smaller sig radius.

Is that with your after burner fit? I really doubt it.

And before you side track I'm referring to speed.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1018 - 2014-08-04 18:01:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Anyword on munnin, other than the speed changes? ISIS shows its shield tanked, how am i suppose to shield tank with 3 mids? Muninn needs buff more than any other HAC. Hardly used, low dps, slow, and not enough PG to fit arties properly without gimping.

Also.. vagabond, give it more cargospace. You give it an active tank bonus and a smallish cargohold. And with all the ammo types i need to carry around, its kind of a pain.Its at 360m3 now i think. Sac is at 615m3. Can we get a happy medium of 400-450ish?

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1019 - 2014-08-04 18:03:26 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
Rowells wrote:

You just totally ignored the speed thing didn't you.

With the proposed changes the Eagle will be faster with smaller sig radius.


Mmmh, not with your fit.

Fits can be changed.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1020 - 2014-08-04 18:04:56 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
Rowells wrote:

You just totally ignored the speed thing didn't you.

With the proposed changes the Eagle will be faster with smaller sig radius.

Is that with your after burner fit? I really doubt it.

And before you side track I'm referring to speed.

Put a MWD on it instead.