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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#981 - 2014-08-04 14:04:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
These calculations could be improved and optimized for huge battles greatly. Like, if line of sight goes through several blocks of space tightly stuffed with objects (thus their_summary_volume/volume_of_block ratio beat some threshold), than no checks are made past first 1-2 and shot considered landed in 2nd-3rd block, without subsequent calculations.

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Higgs Maken
The Metal Box Company
#982 - 2014-08-04 14:21:22 UTC
Phaade wrote:

I agree with your thoughts about bringing other HACs up. Your suggestion might be something that works too (within a certain range of sentries). Also, removing the sentry drones entirely should be considered. They are simply too powerful for a cruiser hull.

I still think the ishtar needs to be nerfed, with all other HACs improved. Even that might not be enough though. It's the fundamental way the weapon system works.

Imagine the eagle being able to switch between small, medium, and large guns, all of which are bonused. I bet ishtar fanboys would be screaming then. Hilariously, it's exactly what that done boat does.


What I have bold is your position and how much you hate drone. if we assume your camp about Ishtar OPness is true, say after normalised and the worse HAC have a score of 1 and ishtar 1.2, to balance it you either raise all to 1.2 or decrease Ishtar to 1, but instead what are you campaigning for? Raise all HAC to 1.2 and nerf Ishtar to 1. Your motive isn't driven by balance but by your own basis.

Drone's advantage is selectable damage type and size( subject to what's available in your drone bay), it's disadvantage is it's travelling time(non-sentry) destructible and unable to overheat. Reduce drone bay size can reduce choice of damage type and size, would that help with your concern?

For you and Rowells, both of you have a solution that's to nerf Ishtar, no rhyme or reason will change your mind; because to you there is only a way, the one and only way Ishtar could be balance, your way. The only reason I started posting was because of someone like you, who pretty much claim anyone who disagree with him have an hidden agenda. For you anyone who disagree with you is stupid. I wonder who died and crown the few of you king.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#983 - 2014-08-04 14:40:35 UTC
Khan Wrenth wrote:
Ray Kyonhe wrote:

The reason why brawling doesn't have chance is actually the fact that there is no such thing as line of fire's obstruction in current game's engine. To understand the connection between those two aspects, just imagine two fleets fighting huge battle. Each fleet have 2 wing, close range and sniping. Two close range wings are brawling and their ranks now intermingled. Now sniper wings have to choose their possitions and targets wisely, as they can't simply shoot through their own brawling buddies (neither through other sniper buddies who happen to get in their line of sight) and asteroids.

Now lets get to those brawling wings. Their ranks now mixed up, and any single one combatant can lock and shoot only those enemys who are adjacent to him, because line of sight to others now obstructed by those adjacent ones. So focusing with dps of all wing now becomes infeasible.

Snipers still can project fire and alfa focus targets pretty well, but if some close range fleet will warp to their 0, same rules will start apply - they won't be able to shoot through their others sniping buddies and adjacent enemy close range combatants to focus one particular target, only those close to them enough.

With this tactical element lacking from the equation it will be very hard to balance things and shift battles to brawlings.


I might be wrong, but I believe this has been discussed before. If I recall correctly, the Devs said that forcing the servers to calculate what is essentially collision damage for each instance of a shot would amount to hundreds of thousands of extra complications on the processors per tick, and over the course of any decent sized battle? Forget about it. You'd see even small gang brawls enter into TiDi. So the concept is completely and utterly off the table.



Would not have been a problem is Eve had been designed from start to be like that. Last time I saw that argument (6 years ago, so remember my computer was quite slower than modern ones) on a single CPU I was able to calculate in a hierarchical space partition intersection calculations for 30 thousand spheres each one shooting once every 2 seconds at a random other sphere, detecting if the shot hits of is blocked .. all that keeping over 100 iterations per second. Hint is using spacial/temporal coherence to choose the branch of the hierarchy more likely to reach the target.

So it is possible, but probably too awkward to glue on EVE now.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#984 - 2014-08-04 14:43:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Higgs Maken wrote:
[quote=Phaade]


Drone's advantage is selectable damage type and size( subject to what's available in your drone bay), it's disadvantage is it's travelling time(non-sentry) destructible and unable to overheat. Reduce drone bay size can reduce choice of damage type and size, would that help with your concern?



Sorry no. Drone advantages are: Do not take high slots, do not take PG to fit, never reload, never uses cap, can hit at Battleship sized long range ( 70-90 km) while trckign like short range weapons.


All that while dealing a mid term between long range and short range guns DPS.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#985 - 2014-08-04 15:16:32 UTC
Odithia wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

It is not only about DPS. The Eagle has a much more formidable tank while being able to apply damage at a much further range.

At the range where the Eagle may be able to outdamage the Ishtar, it does such pathetic damage that it is completely useless anyway.
By the way the Ishtar does almost twice as much dps than the eagle at 150km.

The only used "long range" medium railgun ship is the Tengu and that's because it is faster and has twice as much EHP than the Eagle.

The Eagle can reach over twice the EHP of an Ishtar. DPS is not everything.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#986 - 2014-08-04 15:19:11 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Remember things can still be overpowered whilst not immortal.

And the point about the other HACs is whilst they edge (and it is edge) the ishtar in one or two areas each, the ishtars package is still simply better. i.e. the minor disadvantage in a select area is still more than outweighed by what the ishtar overall brings to the field.

You are welcome to kid yourself further that it's still not an overpowered monster. I'll still fly them in fleets because there's little point in using anything else when it's not a kitchen sink.

So you dismiss other HACS being able to counter them. I find that interesting and biased.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#987 - 2014-08-04 15:19:27 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
Odithia wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

It is not only about DPS. The Eagle has a much more formidable tank while being able to apply damage at a much further range.

At the range where the Eagle may be able to outdamage the Ishtar, it does such pathetic damage that it is completely useless anyway.
By the way the Ishtar does almost twice as much dps than the eagle at 150km.

The only used "long range" medium railgun ship is the Tengu and that's because it is faster and has twice as much EHP than the Eagle.

The Eagle can reach over twice the EHP of an Ishtar. DPS is not everything.



That is why freighters are the main combat ship in eve.....

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#988 - 2014-08-04 15:22:42 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
The Eagle can counter an Ishtar better.
Ishtar isn't the fastest, capable of the most tank, nor the farthest range.

So why does the Ishtar do almost twice as much damage at similar ranges? Wardens get about 100km optimal with 45km falloff and eagle gets 135km optimal with 15km falloff. In fact at pretty much every range the Ishtar gets better damage and tracking at pretty much every range pattern. Why is a ship specialized and bonuses for long range dps so easily outclasses in every category? This is what's unbalanced. This is why the other HACs see less use. Why use anything else? The Ishtar can most likely do it better. And you may say "destructible weapon system" but when you actually take a look at how easy it is to negate this, even Rise understood it wasn't as powerful an argument. Ever tried killing 700+ sentries with a 10-30km spread that will just be replaced 2 more times? And I really doubt having 5m/s really has any major arguing points when claiming that being that much faster compensates for the much larger discrepancies between the two.

It is not only about DPS. The Eagle has a much more formidable tank while being able to apply damage at a much further range.

So you're trying to tell me, that dps doesnt matter on the one weapon system that specializes in long range dps? And I already showed you that even taking into account falloff, the wardens will apply better damage at the same ranges as rails. The only point they come even close is at 150km where the wardens drop to near to rail levels but then rail damage drops dramatically as falloff kicks in, all the while wardens have better tracking. So no, rails do not apply damage better than sentries in the same situations. While yes it does tank a bit more than the common fleet ishtar fit, it does not help much against double the dps.

As you might be able to see if you read it again. I wrote it is not only about DPS. I did not once imply DPS doesn't matter. Tank a bit more is pretty misleading. The Eagle can have way over double the tank of an Ishtar on a common fleet fit.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#989 - 2014-08-04 15:22:48 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Remember things can still be overpowered whilst not immortal.

And the point about the other HACs is whilst they edge (and it is edge) the ishtar in one or two areas each, the ishtars package is still simply better. i.e. the minor disadvantage in a select area is still more than outweighed by what the ishtar overall brings to the field.

You are welcome to kid yourself further that it's still not an overpowered monster. I'll still fly them in fleets because there's little point in using anything else when it's not a kitchen sink.

So you dismiss other HACS being able to counter them. I find that interesting and biased.



Other HACs cannot counter them. That is entirely the point.

Maybe in some weird, contrived world inside your head, but on the field, with a solid FC - not a cats chance in hell.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#990 - 2014-08-04 15:27:53 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
afkalt wrote:
"Good"? Try preposterously overpowered with stats, fittings and application other ships in the class could only DREAM of.

When the counter to X, is MORE X on the other side, you have a problem. And that's where ishtars are.

Can they die? Sure.
Do they bring far more to the table than any other HAC and do it in the same damned fit no matter the comparision HAC? Incontrovertibly.

The closest match is a cerberus, which cannot get near what an ishtar can do, unless it could magically swap from RLML, to HAMS to HML without a depot or docking. Plus fitting neuts to handle tackle. And with extra lows so nanos are viable whilst still keeping 3 damage mods.

THAT's the kind of nonsense going on here.

A Cerberus/Eagle can hit from farther away, Muninn/ Vagabond is faster, Zealot/Sacrilege out tank it.

Sure, when you over simplify things like that they look great. But why aren't Cerberus fleets being used to counter ishtars? Soon as you turn off the MWD heavies barely scratch and if you go for hams the Ishtar will just run circles around your shorter range. How about zealots? They've got very nice range with the hull bonus and beams, close to if not better than sentries. However you won't get anywhere near as much damage in matter how you fit it. So munnins should be the counter right? Nope. Artillery is great for alpha fleets but they are too fragile and their range is shorter unless you sacrifice alpha damage, which means you need more munnins. Don't even look at the eagle or Deimos. Neither can effectively get the same dps at the same range or tank enough (while keeping proper speed) to get in close enough to use higher dps ammo/guns (which is still a huge step behind sentries) to do anything useful.

They are though. However, an Eagle works better.
The reason I mentioned the different advantages is because some people are trying to use the Ishtars advantages as a gauge to determine if it is OP. That's stacking the deck.


Got a fit to go with this claim for the Eagle?

2xMag Stab
1xDCU2
1xPower Diagnostics System
2xLSE
2xInvul Field
1x EM Ward
1x10mn Afterburner
5x250mm Rail
2x Medium Core Field Extender
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#991 - 2014-08-04 15:34:26 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
Odithia wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

It is not only about DPS. The Eagle has a much more formidable tank while being able to apply damage at a much further range.

At the range where the Eagle may be able to outdamage the Ishtar, it does such pathetic damage that it is completely useless anyway.
By the way the Ishtar does almost twice as much dps than the eagle at 150km.

The only used "long range" medium railgun ship is the Tengu and that's because it is faster and has twice as much EHP than the Eagle.

The Eagle can reach over twice the EHP of an Ishtar. DPS is not everything.



That is why freighters are the main combat ship in eve.....

That is an irrelevant conclusion. Please continue though.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#992 - 2014-08-04 15:37:03 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:

2xMag Stab
1xDCU2
1xPower Diagnostics System
2xLSE
2xInvul Field
1x EM Ward
1x10mn Afterburner
5x250mm Rail
2x Medium Core Field Extender



So the eagle with less DPS (which shoots at the highest possible resists on the ishtar), a 1300m/s speed disadvantage and all of 15km longer range?

Brilliant. My ishtars are running, RUNNING in terror. Oh wait, they're not, they're erasing crap like that from the skies with their curators.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#993 - 2014-08-04 15:37:59 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Remember things can still be overpowered whilst not immortal.

And the point about the other HACs is whilst they edge (and it is edge) the ishtar in one or two areas each, the ishtars package is still simply better. i.e. the minor disadvantage in a select area is still more than outweighed by what the ishtar overall brings to the field.

You are welcome to kid yourself further that it's still not an overpowered monster. I'll still fly them in fleets because there's little point in using anything else when it's not a kitchen sink.

So you dismiss other HACS being able to counter them. I find that interesting and biased.



Other HACs cannot counter them. That is entirely the point.

Maybe in some weird, contrived world inside your head, but on the field, with a solid FC - not a cats chance in hell.

But they can and have quite frequently. Anything can become quite OP with a solid FC and execution.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#994 - 2014-08-04 15:40:10 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

2xMag Stab
1xDCU2
1xPower Diagnostics System
2xLSE
2xInvul Field
1x EM Ward
1x10mn Afterburner
5x250mm Rail
2x Medium Core Field Extender



So the eagle with less DPS (which shoots at the highest possible resists on the ishtar), a 1300m/s speed disadvantage and all of 15km longer range?

Brilliant. My ishtars are running, RUNNING in terror. Oh wait, they're not, they're erasing crap like that from the skies with their curators.

Maybe your Ishtar needs buffed then. ;)
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#995 - 2014-08-04 15:48:23 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:

The Eagle can have way over double the tank of an Ishtar on a common fleet fit.


And that is completely irrelevant if the ishtar tank is already big enough so the logis keep it alive. Eagle tank will be overkill most of the time when you have logis. Overkill is something that does not help.

It is like killing a destroyer with a tempest with arties instead of a munin. Irrelevant.. its overkill. The munin is still better becuse it can track more and fire faster. On the same way the ishtar is better because it can deal more damage while also staying alive.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#996 - 2014-08-04 15:50:35 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

The Eagle can have way over double the tank of an Ishtar on a common fleet fit.


And that is completely irrelevant if the ishtar tank is already big enough so the logis keep it alive. Eagle tank will be overkill most of the time when you have logis. Overkill is something that does not help.

It is like killing a destroyer with a tempest with arties instead of a munin. Irrelevant.. its overkill. The munin is still better becuse it can track more and fire faster. On the same way the ishtar is better because it can deal more damage while also staying alive.

I find it completely relevant if you factor in alpha.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#997 - 2014-08-04 15:54:18 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Janice en Marland wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

The Eagle can have way over double the tank of an Ishtar on a common fleet fit.


And that is completely irrelevant if the ishtar tank is already big enough so the logis keep it alive. Eagle tank will be overkill most of the time when you have logis. Overkill is something that does not help.

It is like killing a destroyer with a tempest with arties instead of a munin. Irrelevant.. its overkill. The munin is still better becuse it can track more and fire faster. On the same way the ishtar is better because it can deal more damage while also staying alive.

I find it completely relevant if you factor in alpha.



Well if you're hell bent on going down this route, do you have any idea how little damage an eagle will do to an ishtar?

Hint: With hybrids in the eagle and curators in the ishtar, suddenly the EHPs are about the same.

Of course there's the detail the eagle is managing ~250DPS vs the ishtars 600+

Assuming the eagle can even track an 1800m/s ishtar.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#998 - 2014-08-04 15:55:31 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

The Eagle can have way over double the tank of an Ishtar on a common fleet fit.


And that is completely irrelevant if the ishtar tank is already big enough so the logis keep it alive. Eagle tank will be overkill most of the time when you have logis. Overkill is something that does not help.

It is like killing a destroyer with a tempest with arties instead of a munin. Irrelevant.. its overkill. The munin is still better becuse it can track more and fire faster. On the same way the ishtar is better because it can deal more damage while also staying alive.

I find it completely relevant if you factor in alpha.



Well if you're hell bent on going down this route, do you have any idea how little damage an eagle will do to an ishtar?

Hint: With hybrids in the eagle and curators in the ishtar, suddenly the EHPs are about the same.

Thank you for finally coming to that conclusion.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#999 - 2014-08-04 15:58:00 UTC
Hardly double then, is it?

It is, however, less than half the DPS. And slower.

So yeah, tell me more about this "counter"
Marisol Aldurad
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1000 - 2014-08-04 16:01:26 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
The more I hear it the more I like the idea of just changing the bandwidth of Heavys to 20mb and lowering the bandwidth of ishtars to 100 as well as the Navy Vexor. This would be a slight buff also to Myrms as they would not be able to field a full flight of heavy drones.


It's not just the myrmidon that would benefit if such a change happens.

Vexor/prophecy would be able to field 3 heavies, a medium and a light
Vexor navy would be able to field 5 heavies (if it was also reduced to 100 bandwidth)
Proteus would be able to field 5 heavies in its drone configuration
Myrmidon would be able to field 5 heavies

It is a buff to the potential damage of the vexor, prophecy, proteus and myrmidon ( though suffers from no heavy drone speed or tracking bonuses) and a nerf to the vexor navy (if used as a sentry boat, but no nerf is used as a heavy droneboat), and the Ishtar (as it would lose 20% of its sentry damage, but lose none of its damage if using heavy drones).

Its a tactical nerf to the sentry setup on cruisers, but keeps its exact potential when using heavy drones. It is also a buff to some drone ships and basic drone fitting functionality..


usually the simple answers are the best ...just reduce the ishtar damage bonus too sentries..

7.5% damage too heavies
5% damage too sentries


-------------------->>

Like the idea of reducing the bandwidth of Heavy drones and with that in mind, Im okay for a Cruiser to be downed to a 100m3 bandwidth. It would be a step towards fixing the Ishtar and improving a lot of other ships. But we need to finish that step and REMOVE the bonuses for Sentry drones entirely from the Ishtar. I think these two in combination along with the minor tweaks CCP just proposed would be a great way to bring the Ishtar in line and do some benefit for a lot of other vessels as well.

btw - with ECM and drones I think it could be interesting if treated as an interrupt. If the ship is shut down, the drones would finish their last assigned task then auto-return to the drone bay... ie, remaining uncontrollable until the controlling ship recovers. However, perhaps adding a caveat to that... if a ship is shut down & the drones return they could be redeployed but would act similar to auto-targeting missiles -- I could see that being a lot of fun !