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Distance that you're being ejected out of a wormhole depends on mass

First post First post First post
Author
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#361 - 2014-08-04 08:00:33 UTC
Syndiaan wrote:
BayneNothos wrote:


Sounds beneficial against the standard T3+Logi Blob.
Logi has to now sit next to the WH and can't burn out lest they get caught by the people jumping in. This means Logi sits next to everything else you plan to pew. Much more useful.
Your own Logi now sits a fair distance out from the enemy so it's not getting auto tackled straight away anymore.

I think some people need to do less stressing out and more thinking on how to exploit this for their own benefit. It's really not going to shut down W Space.


I do not disagree that the whole T3 and logi needs work, but CCP is already rebalancing T3 ships, which is long overdue IMO. I think they should finish doing that before also screwing around with other game mechanics.


The T3 Blobs comes from all WH fights starting within Scram/Web/Bubble range. No T3 changes will stop that. Use of T3's come about due to them surviving well in that situation. The Proteus especially. If they no longer become dominant in that environment then another ship class will take it's place. Brick HAC's for example.

This gives options.

I'd really like to see it go more crazy, like adding directionality, so if you come in at one angle you come out at the polar opposite angle with a slight variation. Mostly I want it to still feel different from jumping a gate.
Shogun Hogun
Doomheim
#362 - 2014-08-04 08:02:42 UTC
Keith Planck wrote:
I suggest a bell-curve based on mass.

Very small ships (scouts) and very large ships (capitals) would spawn close.
Medium sized ships would spawn farther away (guardians have a 70km range so I'd say max distance would be 35kms)


Scouts no harder to kill: Check
Capitals still somewhat safe to use on wormholes: Check
Hole rolling speed not influenced: Check
Heavy armor fleets don't have to worry about being too spread out: Check
Kite doctrines will have the option to jump into enemy fleets: Check
Hard as **** to code: Pending


i like this alot
Walextheone
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#363 - 2014-08-04 08:03:11 UTC
Maby just wait for the dev blogs before going ape **** on the forums? We don't know any numbers yet and we don't know the mechanics or if that sisi changes are the only thing they are planning.

Just chill until more facts comes up.
Syndiaan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#364 - 2014-08-04 08:03:12 UTC
Winthorp wrote:
Syndiaan wrote:
So when you jump a WH you get shot out in random directions and distance based on mass.... Here is wormhole PvP between corps if this is implemented.

20 vs 20 looking for a fight sitting on the other side of each other.

Team A: You jump over first!

Team B: No you jump over first!

Team A: No you jump over first!

Team B: No you!

Team A: No you!!!

Team B: NO YOU!!!!

Team A: YOU!!!!!!

everyone leaves....


So as it stands now we have

Team A Finds Team B

Team B Gets alerted to Team A being there (The instant sig overlay usually alerts them)

Team B scouts Team A's fleet

Team B sends jabber ping

Team A waits on WH with fleet or half fleet and half reserved

Team B gets a few log ins starts to form up

Team A notices Team B getting a few more numbers and sends another scout through to assess

Team A realises they are starting to get a few more people then they are comfortable with and think a fight might happen.

Team A sends jabber ping to bolster numbers

Team A and B scouts **** around like shitcunts for 15mins liaising with FC's about fleet comps they can see and look for deepsafes

Team B realise Team A's fleet is not sitting in their home WH

Team B decides to send another scout out to scan for their home Wh to make sure there is only Team A current shown fleet.

Team A starts to get pissed off at form up time and has either massive dicks like me start to talk **** in local or the FC will start talking **** in Hiddens love den (Rainbow retards channel)

Team B figure they either better do something soon or fear being outed as pussies.

Option 1 usually happens here:

Team b get the stock standard dread blap at range setup ready

Team A see the changes and realises they can do bugger all about dread blap and call them lots of names and go home to do escalations

Option 2

Team B warps to hole with a great fleet after jabber ping army has assembled (I'm looking at you SSC jabber warriors)

Team A jump in their fleet and see Team B has commited and call in the reserve fleet and a dread and Archon

Team A dont have enough numbers to break Team B in the end and jump subcaps home then jump dread home after taking a few minor losses but saving the rest of the 50B ISK fleet to safely fight another day

Team A then go home to do escalations while **** talking with Team B while Team B run escalations in their home

Both teams pretty chuffed about what has just happened and think all is fine with the universe.... An hour later.


AND THIS IS THE CURRENT STATE OF HIGH END WH's YOU WANT TO KEEP?


Judging from your characters employment history, pretty sure you should just leave the wormhole forums.
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#365 - 2014-08-04 08:07:35 UTC
hah. a low blow, but more importantly when someone puts their thoughts into words, it shouldn't take looking at an employment history to tell good from bad.
Winthorp
#366 - 2014-08-04 08:09:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Winthorp
Syndiaan wrote:

Judging from your characters employment history, pretty sure you should just leave the wormhole forums.


Judging from you staying in the same stale C6 corp for two years thinking you are the elite of WH's while experiencing no other WH gameplay you should stop judging other people.

Wow you guys seem to get really personal and nasty when someone like me doesn't agree with your everything is right mentality. Shocked
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#367 - 2014-08-04 08:21:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
writing off characters based on employment history and killboards isn't smart, but it is to write off the people who do. (not having an employment history or killboard does not mean the opposite of having one)
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#368 - 2014-08-04 08:22:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Have CCP got this the wrong way round? Doesn't it make more sense for smaller ships to spawn further away, due to their ability to burn back into jump range quicker?

Hayley Enaka wrote:
I think it's not an awful idea just too extreme in its current implementation. I feel like CCP is simply trying to make ships more vulnerable around wormholes rather than always having the freedom of jumping to the other side. Putting caps 40km away however is complete suicide when dropping them outside jump range at say 5 - 10km serves the same purpose without making it completely unrealistic to use them.


I agree. It's not an awful idea but the balance of mass vs. spawn range has to be planned perfectly or the change will have negative consequences.

I don't think any ship should spawn within jump range and to me, it makes more sense if smaller ships spawn further out while capitals and BS spawn 2km and 3km out of jump range, respectively.
The Icefox
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#369 - 2014-08-04 08:24:00 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We will be looking for player feedback at that time.


Since when do eve players wait to provide their feedback? I'll add my .02 isk. Since I just watched 4 of my industrial friends quit and unsub after the recent industrial changes now I'm listening to my fed up worm hole friends say the same thing. This is game breaking for a number of reasons.

This will in no way create interesting content. There is no sane reason to jump caps into a hostile setup fleet as this change makes it highly unlikely that you would be able to predict positioning, particularly whether or not you land near your support. Or your support lands in the middle of a blob of hostiles and your dps lands in the back. This change will encourage people to simply sit on opposite sides of a hole doing NOTHING.

This also breaks some of the more stable mechanics of worm hole life. Like rolling your hole to find interesting content, or to run away from content that is more than interested in you. Or you know just finding a sane exit.

Additionally you change one of the fundamentally positive aspects of wormhole space, and an aspect that makes wh space unique in comparison to k space. You can jump back out if you don't like what you see.

I would add to this that most of the fighting that I have seen in wormholes occurred on wormholes. No one enjoys pos fights. This encourages pos fights. Or more accurately pos spinning.

All in all this is a terrible idea. I currently have 4 accounts. They were subbed for 1 year each those subs come due in September. Between the recent terrible change to research pos, blue prints, and skills, and with proposed changes as inane as this I feel that my time in eve and my continued financial contribution to this game will likely be coming to an end. Too many of these changes are causing people I've played with for years to leave.

PS. No you can't have my stuff.

Q: So many well known dev's left lately, should we be worried? A:  Worry a lot if Fozzie, Masterplan, Rise, Veritas, Bettik, Ytterbium, Scarpia, Arrow, or even Greyscale leaves. Worry a little if Punkturis, karkur, SoniClover, Affinity, Goliath, or X̶h̶a̶g̶e̶n̶ leaves.

Syndiaan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#370 - 2014-08-04 08:29:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Syndiaan
Winthorp wrote:
Syndiaan wrote:

Judging from your characters employment history, pretty sure you should just leave the wormhole forums.


Judging from you staying in the same stale C6 corp for two years thinking you are the elite of WH's while experiencing no other WH gameplay you should stop judging other people.

Wow you guys seem to get really personal and nasty when someone like me doesn't agree with your everything is right mentality. Shocked


I never said I was an elite WH player I am actually pretty bad at EvE and do not deny it, I have fun playing regardless. I am not sure what you mean by a "stale" corp but I enjoy playing with my corp mates and we have a really good time, even when we lose ships. We may not be the best corp in the game but we have fun and enjoy the game and have a ton of laughs.

I was not trying to attack him personally I was just pointing out he is a corp jumper. Maybe he has his reasons maybe not, I personally do not trust corp jumpers unless they express why.

This is getting off topic though and is in the direction of a troll post, ill stop.
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#371 - 2014-08-04 08:33:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
hah. I just had a vision of 12 hictors becoming the new C5 C6 ragerolling meta.

wait. just put 100 MN on T3s.

what does this change again?



that wormhole isk hasn't been nerfed by throttling NPC buy orders, it tells me that CCP still wants to make high class wormholes a place for large group gameplay. large rewards for large groups. you know, that there's still hope, they still want to put effort into it. this mass thing makes sense in that way, of pushing wormholes toward a large group thing.

you could tinfoil and say they are promoting multiboxing, but trust me, multibox PVP is a mistake, and even if the tinfoilery is right you should want it too (it's better for you if the gang you face is being multiboxed).

speaking for other groups and using their possible reaction as a reason to claim this is bad isn't just a guess, it's false. subcap PVP is appealing because it's cheap and people push for it. I had to resist nyx steelgamers who constantly pushed for subcap PVP because I didn't feel like updating 10+ medical clones on a daily basis. I fielded 10 B+ and know that PVP is much more appealing when it's ISK limited by something like this wormhole mass disadvantage to caps.

it's a good move. it shouldn't be news to anyone that holding down a wormhole responsibly, especially higher class ones, means having people.
Montgomery Black
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#372 - 2014-08-04 08:52:10 UTC
:thumbs down

As others have said, why mess with something that isnt broken ?

My corp lives in a lower class wormhole.

Reason why i think the change is bad

- We frequently roll the hole to find pew or to get a quicker K space route to where a ally has some potential pew / needs assistance etc. These proposed changes will make rolling take longer ....meaning less pew all round.


Ive got a bright idea... how about you work on something that the WH community has requested for ages like Personal SMAs..
more ship storage security = easier recruitining. easier recruiting = more people in WHs. More people in WHs = more pew and fun for everybody !

WH Merc Services in AU TZ. Citadel defense / offense. More details see forum post - Link

Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#373 - 2014-08-04 09:03:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
because it is broken, but you don't need to worry. if you live in a smaller wormhole and the spawn distance is based on mass, it affects you less. like 10x less. if caps are landing 30-40 km from holes, something like your cruiser at 115,000,000 kg with a 100 MN prop should land 1/10 of that distance which is 3-4 km... that's still within 5km and reactivation range.

*if* the spawn distance is directly proportional to mass.
Mashie Saldana
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#374 - 2014-08-04 09:04:28 UTC
I still want to see wormholes become unidirectional turning WH space back to the great dangerous unknown it was before it got mapped out and farmed to hell.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#375 - 2014-08-04 09:11:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Rain6637 wrote:
because it is broken...


How so?

People in low class wormholes tend to use orcas and battleships to roll, not cruisers. They will still face the same issues but to a lesser degree. Bigger/ships will be hit harder that smaller more nimble ships... How is that a good example of balance in an area of space that is already dominated by cruisers?
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#376 - 2014-08-04 09:12:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
appropriately, and just like everyone else. i mean, the only reason for using an orca to roll is the mass... it's certainly not the combat ability. to balance that shortcut of pushing a lot of mass through at one time, you end up in more danger. isn't that balance?



i was just thinking i'd like to see ships spawn from wormholes with some momentum, and in random directions as if they were spit out by a vortex
Flag Zulu
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#377 - 2014-08-04 09:13:00 UTC
Having just spent the past couple of hours reading through near the whole Forum Thread, I think everyone will agree that there is a lot of disagreement between the members for and against the expected changes. I will not beat about the bush and say that I am against the current changes – with one caveat.

If they are going to ignore their employers (us) and screw around the way we are ejected from a Wormhole (WH), they must make the same change to every other method of star transit in K-space – Star Gates, Titan Bridges, Jump Bridges, Cynos, everything. Personally I have always thought that if a cyno is killed before the incoming fleet arrives, that fleet should lose its re-entry point to K-Space and be subsequently scattered throughout the systems between their departure point and around their intended destination. This is my own opinion - like it or not, I really don’t care.

To the point, I have for the best part of a year now become increasingly concerned with what is happening to the player base. While I am concerned with the expected changes to the mechanics of the game just like everyone, the mechanics have been done to death in this forum already. My concern is starting up my launcher and seeing the number of accounts logged into my TZ getting smaller with each passing week.

CCP do you keep records of numbers online, Please release them, and be honest.

I can recall when a good week night would see 25k plus accounts logged in. A weekend would see peaks of over 35k online, and I have seen 40k some weekends.

Oh, but people are multi-boxing and PLEX their accounts through the in-game market you argue – SO WHAT! Each account is a PLEX, and PLEX do not just appear in the game through seeding. Someone in Real Life (RL) must spend RL money to buy the PLEX and chose to place the PLEX into the market for other people to buy.

Today, I see between 16k and 19k on during the week, and weekends are lucky to see 30k when the EU TZ is overlapping out TZ around DT. Before EU comes into the game our TZ is often down to between 18k and 22k on a weekend.

What does this mean? - 20,000 accounts is $20 x 20,000 = $400,000 per month, or 12 x $400,000 = $4.8 mill per year. It means that CCPs revenue is down by an estimated 7k to 12k accounts overall in our TZ.

Based on my own TZ observations, and AUST/NZ TZ is by no means the biggest, CCPs income appears to have dropped by $2.5 mil to $3 mil per year over the past 12 months. We, your employers, and I say that because without us ‘the players’ buying PLEX, you CCP, are unemployed. You need to be very aware of that fact when you decide to screw with things that are good and ignore what you tell us is broken.

I personally have lapsed one account, my son has lapsed his only account, my brother has lapsed two accounts, a good friend has lapsed four accounts. I know around 20 other players personally that have lapsed one to three accounts each. Half of them no longer play at all. This is the real effect of the badly thought out content changing CCP conduct with little or no consultation.

To those who stand up with their WH alts and voice their opinion – Well done!

Yes, there are players that support the expected change, and that is what makes EVE the game it is, diversity. However, we all notice that some players hide behind Forum Alts with no playing history, and don’t have the balls to use their main playing character to voice their view. Your choice, but you stand accused being a forum troll with no WH experience or right to voice your opinion in or about our sandpit until you do.

It is safe to say however that by a large majority, the real WH playing fraternity have no fear of their WH game character being identified and do not support the expected changes.

CCP, if you are going to propose a change like this you are going about it the wrong way.

Try talking to the players first - tell us who proposed the idea, and put it up for discussion before you waste development time and money on it.

You created magic with W-Space! However, You started stuffing W-Space with changes to scanning! A WH has no subspace beacon for local communications chat or any other K-Space infrastructure. For that reason alone, No Site of any kind in W-Space should be able to be located without scan probes, and no player owned structures or ships should likewise be able to be located without combat probes or exceptional skill and practice with the D-Scan function.

You (CCP) openly admit that SOV and POS mechanics are broken and need to be fixed. Stop trying to fix what you got right the first time – W-Space, and go fix the SOV and POS mechanics. Instead of losing even more of your employer base, you may just get some of them back.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#378 - 2014-08-04 09:21:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Rain6637 wrote:
appropriately, and just like everyone else. i mean, the only reason for using an orca to roll is the mass... it's certainly not the combat ability. to balance that shortcut of pushing a lot of mass through at one time, you end up in more danger. isn't that balance?


Not in my opinion. As you stated, an orca is not a combat ship and neither is a dread out of siege. Smaller groups will be taking a huge risk using large mass ships while large groups can do it without a second thought.

I agree that rolling shouldn't be risk free but spawning a capital (orca included) or a battleship any further out of jump range that 5km is too extreme IMO.

Rain6637 wrote:
appropriately, and just like everyone else.

I don't know what you mean by that.
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#379 - 2014-08-04 09:21:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
let's be honest about the shortcut this affects. carrier + orca spawning further out is as appropriate as they are an easy button. i mean, what is the one situation you jumped a dread through a wormhole with the intention of jumping straight back (which is what this change affects).

sorry about the short reply. I realized I should explain myself and added to it.



I have a feeling that when it gets bad, 'all those players' are gone anyway, and there's nothing to lose... CCP will get serious about selling all those microtransaction clothing items that I want.

you know, hit rock bottom so they can get out from under this oppressive player base. (yes you)

do you know how many times more successful WoW is? cuz if you want to talk about ways that CCP could make more revenue, it's not by catering to the current crowd [insert description of the typical EVE player here].
Winthorp
#380 - 2014-08-04 09:24:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Winthorp
Flag Zulu wrote:
Yes, there are players that support the expected change, and that is what makes EVE the game it is, diversity. However, we all notice that some players hide behind Forum Alts with no playing history, and don’t have the balls to use their main playing character to voice their view. Your choice, but you stand accused being a forum troll with no WH experience or right to voice your opinion in or about our sandpit until you do.


Apparently though if you don't agree with the masses and think the change is good people think that instead of debating the reasoning with you they have some right to ask where i get my experience from or what is your corp history... And when my history gets given to them they just shut their keyboard right up.

I have never seen half the people in this thread bitching about how this is so game breaking ever come to Wh forums to come to discuss any WH mechanics or ideas until their perfect little world of insta rolling away issues is threatened.

But i will give them a few more posts maybe they will KB troll me next.