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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#901 - 2014-08-03 04:57:26 UTC
Dino Zavr wrote:

(Needless to say we hardly ever see full bandwidth 125 Mbps T3)


Coz... there isnt one?
Higgs Maken
The Metal Box Company
#902 - 2014-08-03 05:42:51 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Higgs Maken wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

( possibly because they enjoy things as they are?)

Anyone who disagree with you must have an hidden agenda right? Come on Ishtar has been using 5 sentry drones for the past few years, and it's fine then, why it is OP now? Sentry is fine on Ishtar then, why is sentry a battleship weapon now? Why now? Address that! Instead of simply claiming Ishtar is OP we need to nerf it, blah blah blah. You do that, I would have to ask the mandatory question: point on the doll which part did Ishtar touch you. Make your case before you give suggestion to fix the 'problem'.

Do you know why Rise change 'Bonus to drone tracking and optimal range'? Because that one of the more recent change to that hull.

Ishtar wasn't argued OP before because DDAs and range tracking bonuses. Once those two things came out it made it much more powerful. I agree that sentries are fine on any drone boat that can fit them. However, the reason the ishtar is using them so often now is because it was designed and balanced around factors that didnt exist now.

I dont mind a HAC having such high dps, but when its compared to the other HACs, you dont find any ship that has the same damage application and high-end (for cruisers) dps. If either one of those was drawn back, then i believe the benefits of the other could stay just fine.

I mentioned earlier that it might be reasonable to change the bandwidth on Heavies and the ishtar (maybe its T1 variants as well) so that flying 5 sentries would not be possible, but 5 heavies would still be. I'm even in favor of letting it keep its current range bonuses. This still leaves you with having the options for damage application or raw dps, without having both at the max at the same time. Unless (god forbid) heaby drone ishtar fleets become a thing and everyone whines about those.


DDA was introduce in 2012 and HAC changes was in 2013, DDA exist before HAC changes, but your argument is as if HAC changes before DDA was introduce. I'm going to ask you again: point to the doll which part did sentry Ishtar touch you.

For Ishtar which drone are we talking about, because the standard argument against sentry drone is always by misguided people who would use Garde damage and Warden range, which don't exist in game. Maybe you can show us a fit or something to prove your point. Most importantly please define high DPS and other factors you think is relevant when it comes to balance.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#903 - 2014-08-03 07:11:18 UTC
Higgs Maken wrote:
[Most importantly please define high DPS and other factors you think is relevant when it comes to balance.



"High DPS and other factors" -> Higher DPS, tracking and/or application than rest of the ships on the same line with equivalent weapons, in this case rails, beams, artillery, HAM (or HML for stupid long range) on all the other HACS.

Gardes reach to same range as other HACS, yet provide better tracking and higher DPS. Swapping to long range ammo on all the other ships dips the DPS at the same rate as swapping to Bouncers on Ishtars, except Ishtars still keep the edge on DPS with same proportions with better tracking.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#904 - 2014-08-03 08:11:47 UTC
Dino Zavr wrote:
Hi, folxs

Considering the trend, after Ishtar castration, Navy Vexor is to be the next OP, then the sentries would become the root of evil.. again
(Needless to say we hardly ever see full bandwidth 125 Mbps T3)
From my humble point of view the subsequent drones nerfing continues. Or am i wrong?


I don't think so, VNI has a lot more weaknesses - tank, cap, control range, sentry range, smaller bay and so on
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#905 - 2014-08-03 08:17:23 UTC
Higgs Maken wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Higgs Maken wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

( possibly because they enjoy things as they are?)

Anyone who disagree with you must have an hidden agenda right? Come on Ishtar has been using 5 sentry drones for the past few years, and it's fine then, why it is OP now? Sentry is fine on Ishtar then, why is sentry a battleship weapon now? Why now? Address that! Instead of simply claiming Ishtar is OP we need to nerf it, blah blah blah. You do that, I would have to ask the mandatory question: point on the doll which part did Ishtar touch you. Make your case before you give suggestion to fix the 'problem'.

Do you know why Rise change 'Bonus to drone tracking and optimal range'? Because that one of the more recent change to that hull.

Ishtar wasn't argued OP before because DDAs and range tracking bonuses. Once those two things came out it made it much more powerful. I agree that sentries are fine on any drone boat that can fit them. However, the reason the ishtar is using them so often now is because it was designed and balanced around factors that didnt exist now.

I dont mind a HAC having such high dps, but when its compared to the other HACs, you dont find any ship that has the same damage application and high-end (for cruisers) dps. If either one of those was drawn back, then i believe the benefits of the other could stay just fine.

I mentioned earlier that it might be reasonable to change the bandwidth on Heavies and the ishtar (maybe its T1 variants as well) so that flying 5 sentries would not be possible, but 5 heavies would still be. I'm even in favor of letting it keep its current range bonuses. This still leaves you with having the options for damage application or raw dps, without having both at the max at the same time. Unless (god forbid) heaby drone ishtar fleets become a thing and everyone whines about those.


DDA was introduce in 2012 and HAC changes was in 2013, DDA exist before HAC changes, but your argument is as if HAC changes before DDA was introduce. I'm going to ask you again: point to the doll which part did sentry Ishtar touch you.

For Ishtar which drone are we talking about, because the standard argument against sentry drone is always by misguided people who would use Garde damage and Warden range, which don't exist in game. Maybe you can show us a fit or something to prove your point. Most importantly please define high DPS and other factors you think is relevant when it comes to balance.


I was referring to the idea that nobody figured they would put 3-4 DDAs on an armor ship. The meta was had not developed at the time and thus it wasn't obvious how it worked. . And as to the range and damage, you can get about 700 dps (whith aforementioned fit) at 70km optimal (curators) without any tracking computers. Which is way more than any other HAC can get at those ranges excluding the Cerberus, which has it's own problems hitting targets that are smaller than a BC or moving to fast. even with grades you're hitting 800dps at 50km, which is almost impossible for other HACs to reach. As it stands there's nothing wrong with sentries themselves, but comparing the damage and application to other ships for for the same role and there is an imbalance.

And high dps is referring to the other HACs at the same range. Sentries work perfectly fine on a BS doing the exact same thing, but when only one cruiser can do it, it's imbalanced.
Higgs Maken
The Metal Box Company
#906 - 2014-08-03 08:35:27 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Higgs Maken wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Higgs Maken wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

( possibly because they enjoy things as they are?)

Anyone who disagree with you must have an hidden agenda right? Come on Ishtar has been using 5 sentry drones for the past few years, and it's fine then, why it is OP now? Sentry is fine on Ishtar then, why is sentry a battleship weapon now? Why now? Address that! Instead of simply claiming Ishtar is OP we need to nerf it, blah blah blah. You do that, I would have to ask the mandatory question: point on the doll which part did Ishtar touch you. Make your case before you give suggestion to fix the 'problem'.

Do you know why Rise change 'Bonus to drone tracking and optimal range'? Because that one of the more recent change to that hull.

Ishtar wasn't argued OP before because DDAs and range tracking bonuses. Once those two things came out it made it much more powerful. I agree that sentries are fine on any drone boat that can fit them. However, the reason the ishtar is using them so often now is because it was designed and balanced around factors that didnt exist now.

I dont mind a HAC having such high dps, but when its compared to the other HACs, you dont find any ship that has the same damage application and high-end (for cruisers) dps. If either one of those was drawn back, then i believe the benefits of the other could stay just fine.

I mentioned earlier that it might be reasonable to change the bandwidth on Heavies and the ishtar (maybe its T1 variants as well) so that flying 5 sentries would not be possible, but 5 heavies would still be. I'm even in favor of letting it keep its current range bonuses. This still leaves you with having the options for damage application or raw dps, without having both at the max at the same time. Unless (god forbid) heaby drone ishtar fleets become a thing and everyone whines about those.


DDA was introduce in 2012 and HAC changes was in 2013, DDA exist before HAC changes, but your argument is as if HAC changes before DDA was introduce. I'm going to ask you again: point to the doll which part did sentry Ishtar touch you.

For Ishtar which drone are we talking about, because the standard argument against sentry drone is always by misguided people who would use Garde damage and Warden range, which don't exist in game. Maybe you can show us a fit or something to prove your point. Most importantly please define high DPS and other factors you think is relevant when it comes to balance.


I was referring to the idea that nobody figured they would put 3-4 DDAs on an armor ship. The meta was had not developed at the time and thus it wasn't obvious how it worked. . And as to the range and damage, you can get about 700 dps (whith aforementioned fit) at 70km optimal (curators) without any tracking computers. Which is way more than any other HAC can get at those ranges excluding the Cerberus, which has it's own problems hitting targets that are smaller than a BC or moving to fast. even with grades you're hitting 800dps at 50km, which is almost impossible for other HACs to reach. As it stands there's nothing wrong with sentries themselves, but comparing the damage and application to other ships for for the same role and there is an imbalance.

And high dps is referring to the other HACs at the same range. Sentries work perfectly fine on a BS doing the exact same thing, but when only one cruiser can do it, it's imbalanced.


According to EFT Ishtar with grades and 5 DDA II gives 766 dps, Cerberus with 4 BCS II have 738 DPS (before over heat). You do realized why rise reduce Ishtar max velocity right? Because that's part of balance package, just like tank. A Ishtar shield fit is usually with shield power relay at low, now subsitude that for DDAS tank is reduce, which is part of balance. Sentries doesn't have problems hitting like HAM right? You mention that for HAM but not sentry. Lets cherry pick.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#907 - 2014-08-03 08:38:17 UTC
I believe the meta is what is driving the cry for a nerf. It's easier to ask to nerf something rather than trying to figure out a counter.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#908 - 2014-08-03 08:54:44 UTC
Higgs Maken wrote:


According to EFT Ishtar with grades and 5 DDA II gives 766 dps, Cerberus with 4 BCS II have 738 DPS (before over heat). You do realized why rise reduce Ishtar max velocity right? Because that's part of balance package, just like tank. A Ishtar shield fit is usually with shield power relay at low, now subsitude that for DDAS tank is reduce, which is part of balance. Sentries doesn't have problems hitting like HAM right? You mention that for HAM but not sentry. Lets cherry pick.
i never mentioned HAM (I assumed saying same range would imply regular heavies, seeing as HAMSs will never hit as far out as sentries unless you rig it for that as well it might hit as far as a garde) and shield power relay? Maybe on a ratting fit, but I don't think I've ever seen a doctrine with that on there. And take away that 5th DDA it's damage bonus is almost negligible after that much stacking, and replace it with either a nano or damage control. How are you going to accuse me of cherry picking when you fill in the blanks with your own words. Like I said, nothing wrong with sentries as standalone weapon system. However, the fact that there are no other HACs that can compare to it in the same role is bad. The speed nerf only addresses the ships ability to avoid damage, but do not affect it's own damage application, which is where the problem truly lies.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#909 - 2014-08-03 09:19:03 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Higgs Maken wrote:


According to EFT Ishtar with grades and 5 DDA II gives 766 dps, Cerberus with 4 BCS II have 738 DPS (before over heat). You do realized why rise reduce Ishtar max velocity right? Because that's part of balance package, just like tank. A Ishtar shield fit is usually with shield power relay at low, now subsitude that for DDAS tank is reduce, which is part of balance. Sentries doesn't have problems hitting like HAM right? You mention that for HAM but not sentry. Lets cherry pick.
i never mentioned HAM (I assumed saying same range would imply regular heavies, seeing as HAMSs will never hit as far out as sentries unless you rig it for that as well it might hit as far as a garde) and shield power relay? Maybe on a ratting fit, but I don't think I've ever seen a doctrine with that on there. And take away that 5th DDA it's damage bonus is almost negligible after that much stacking, and replace it with either a nano or damage control. How are you going to accuse me of cherry picking when you fill in the blanks with your own words. Like I said, nothing wrong with sentries as standalone weapon system. However, the fact that there are no other HACs that can compare to it in the same role is bad. The speed nerf only addresses the ships ability to avoid damage, but do not affect it's own damage application, which is where the problem truly lies.

There are quite a few fits on the Ishtar losses page of the killboards with shield power relays. That also led me to a recent fight in L-C307 in which a Ishtar heavy fleet got dunked on by an Eagle/Interceptor fleet.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#910 - 2014-08-03 09:26:24 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:

There are quite a few fits on the Ishtar losses page of the killboards with shield power relays.


The owner(s) of said Ishtar with SPR should probably biomass. Real men fly their sentryishtars with shieldtank + 1600mm plate, cause that's how much PG is avaiable. Try to ask a zealot how he combines 80+km damage application with 65k EHP and 650+ dps across all your poorly skilled subordinates.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#911 - 2014-08-03 09:39:36 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Higgs Maken wrote:


According to EFT Ishtar with grades and 5 DDA II gives 766 dps, Cerberus with 4 BCS II have 738 DPS (before over heat). You do realized why rise reduce Ishtar max velocity right? Because that's part of balance package, just like tank. A Ishtar shield fit is usually with shield power relay at low, now subsitude that for DDAS tank is reduce, which is part of balance. Sentries doesn't have problems hitting like HAM right? You mention that for HAM but not sentry. Lets cherry pick.
i never mentioned HAM (I assumed saying same range would imply regular heavies, seeing as HAMSs will never hit as far out as sentries unless you rig it for that as well it might hit as far as a garde) and shield power relay? Maybe on a ratting fit, but I don't think I've ever seen a doctrine with that on there. And take away that 5th DDA it's damage bonus is almost negligible after that much stacking, and replace it with either a nano or damage control. How are you going to accuse me of cherry picking when you fill in the blanks with your own words. Like I said, nothing wrong with sentries as standalone weapon system. However, the fact that there are no other HACs that can compare to it in the same role is bad. The speed nerf only addresses the ships ability to avoid damage, but do not affect it's own damage application, which is where the problem truly lies.

There are quite a few fits on the Ishtar losses page of the killboards with shield power relays. That also led me to a recent fight in L-C307 in which a Ishtar heavy fleet got dunked on by an Eagle/Interceptor fleet.

Now I'm curious. Why are they fitting passive recharge mods?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#912 - 2014-08-03 09:43:48 UTC
Higgs Maken wrote:

According to EFT Ishtar with grades and 5 DDA II gives 766 dps, Cerberus with 4 BCS II have 738 DPS (before over heat). You do realized why rise reduce Ishtar max velocity right? Because that's part of balance package, just like tank. A Ishtar shield fit is usually with shield power relay at low, now subsitude that for DDAS tank is reduce, which is part of balance. Sentries doesn't have problems hitting like HAM right? You mention that for HAM but not sentry. Lets cherry pick.


You need to use damage charts when trying to eft warrior about missiles, then you see the truth of the 'application problem'

1) HAMs don't get passed 40km without rigs, rigs badly needed elsewhere.
2) HAMs [fury required for the numbers] have exceedingly poor application to cruisers and below.

An Ishtar suffers from neither of these issues.

Cerberus can only begin to compete when shooting ships a size class up (or more) and when it is at point blank range. At long ranges, the Ishtar smokes the Cerberus until you start going passed 100k ranges. Of course then travel time of the missiles starts to bite badly.

Cerb isn't in the same league, sorry.
Higgs Maken
The Metal Box Company
#913 - 2014-08-03 10:24:58 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Higgs Maken wrote:


According to EFT Ishtar with grades and 5 DDA II gives 766 dps, Cerberus with 4 BCS II have 738 DPS (before over heat). You do realized why rise reduce Ishtar max velocity right? Because that's part of balance package, just like tank. A Ishtar shield fit is usually with shield power relay at low, now subsitude that for DDAS tank is reduce, which is part of balance. Sentries doesn't have problems hitting like HAM right? You mention that for HAM but not sentry. Lets cherry pick.
i never mentioned HAM (I assumed saying same range would imply regular heavies, seeing as HAMSs will never hit as far out as sentries unless you rig it for that as well it might hit as far as a garde) and shield power relay? Maybe on a ratting fit, but I don't think I've ever seen a doctrine with that on there. And take away that 5th DDA it's damage bonus is almost negligible after that much stacking, and replace it with either a nano or damage control. How are you going to accuse me of cherry picking when you fill in the blanks with your own words. Like I said, nothing wrong with sentries as standalone weapon system. However, the fact that there are no other HACs that can compare to it in the same role is bad. The speed nerf only addresses the ships ability to avoid damage, but do not affect it's own damage application, which is where the problem truly lies.


According to you it's 800 dps from sentry, even with 5 DDA Ishtar never hit that number. Isn't that the blank you implied, or you are pulling numbers out of thin air just to make your point? That's the reason I ask you to post fit, because we can easily detect BS.

Balance in game is always a matrix with a few variable. DPS, range, damage application, alpha, tank, speed, utilities and other things; all this is factor in to give a score. A ship with highest DPS dosen't makes it OP, as long as it have other drawback. You can continue to focus of pros of Ishtar and QQ while ignoring other factors, nobody can stop you. I can sure as hell tell you, you're aren't lobbying for balance.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#914 - 2014-08-03 11:05:35 UTC
Higgs Maken wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Higgs Maken wrote:


According to EFT Ishtar with grades and 5 DDA II gives 766 dps, Cerberus with 4 BCS II have 738 DPS (before over heat). You do realized why rise reduce Ishtar max velocity right? Because that's part of balance package, just like tank. A Ishtar shield fit is usually with shield power relay at low, now subsitude that for DDAS tank is reduce, which is part of balance. Sentries doesn't have problems hitting like HAM right? You mention that for HAM but not sentry. Lets cherry pick.
i never mentioned HAM (I assumed saying same range would imply regular heavies, seeing as HAMSs will never hit as far out as sentries unless you rig it for that as well it might hit as far as a garde) and shield power relay? Maybe on a ratting fit, but I don't think I've ever seen a doctrine with that on there. And take away that 5th DDA it's damage bonus is almost negligible after that much stacking, and replace it with either a nano or damage control. How are you going to accuse me of cherry picking when you fill in the blanks with your own words. Like I said, nothing wrong with sentries as standalone weapon system. However, the fact that there are no other HACs that can compare to it in the same role is bad. The speed nerf only addresses the ships ability to avoid damage, but do not affect it's own damage application, which is where the problem truly lies.


According to you it's 800 dps from sentry, even with 5 DDA Ishtar never hit that number. Isn't that the blank you implied, or you are pulling numbers out of thin air just to make your point? That's the reason I ask you to post fit, because we can easily detect BS.

Balance in game is always a matrix with a few variable. DPS, range, damage application, alpha, tank, speed, utilities and other things; all this is factor in to give a score. A ship with highest DPS dosen't makes it OP, as long as it have other drawback. You can continue to focus of pros of Ishtar and QQ while ignoring other factors, nobody can stop you. I can sure as hell tell you, you're aren't lobbying for balance.

I'm sorry, where did I say 800? Where did I say 5 DDA? Did I ever not specify which sentry I was using? When did you ever ask for a fit? It's either really early or really late where you are because you seem to be reading and writing things that never happened.
Higgs Maken
The Metal Box Company
#915 - 2014-08-03 13:45:02 UTC
Rowells wrote:

I'm sorry, where did I say 800? Where did I say 5 DDA? Did I ever not specify which sentry I was using? When did you ever ask for a fit? It's either really early or really late where you are because you seem to be reading and writing things that never happened.

Look at post just above BlinkBlink#907. Specifically the part you say
Rowells wrote:

even with grades you're hitting 800dps at 50km, which is almost impossible for other HACs to reach.

I made my point, nice talking to you. Now go ahead and edit #907 post.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#916 - 2014-08-03 14:29:29 UTC
Higgs Maken wrote:
Rowells wrote:

I'm sorry, where did I say 800? Where did I say 5 DDA? Did I ever not specify which sentry I was using? When did you ever ask for a fit? It's either really early or really late where you are because you seem to be reading and writing things that never happened.

Look at post just above BlinkBlink#907. Specifically the part you say
Rowells wrote:

even with grades you're hitting 800dps at 50km, which is almost impossible for other HACs to reach.

I made my point, nice talking to you. Now go ahead and edit #907 post.

I stand corrected, I did mention 800 and on that point I was wrong. But my main point still stands, Ishtar is capable of doing much more than any other HAC is capable of coming close. Thats where the imbalance lies. Even the other long range platforms dont come anywhere close to the damage application and damage of a sentry ishtar.
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#917 - 2014-08-03 15:56:22 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:

edit: why is my armour/combat drone ishtar being nerfed?



you cant figure that out on your own Question

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#918 - 2014-08-03 18:31:28 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:

Why not tracking speed? 8 gun tempest with 5% damage and 7.5% to tracking would be ideal, and even if it's just relegated to the tempest fleet, would make a nice step up from the stabber fleet issue.


Taht woudl be the most owrthless battleship ever!!!

Peopel dont get simple math? 5% damage per level have the same effect on a target that is outtrackign you barely than 5% tracking bonus per level! With the advantage that when the target is not moving you do more damage.

Please people. Use math a bit!

tracking can always be replaced under the guns formula for more raw damage. If your tracking makes you lose 50% of yoru dps you can overcome that by havign twice the raw DPS.... or doublign your tracking ( that was a raw unprecise statement jsut to transmit the general Idea.. that a tracking bonus is THE WEAKEST of all the gun bonuses).

Then they should buff projectile guns so they don't have to f*cking have double damage bonuses all the damn time to come up to the same level as other weapon systems. Increasing the RoF for both of them would be ideal if they're going to be balancing these to have a little more utility, no?
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#919 - 2014-08-03 19:59:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Phaade
Higgs Maken wrote:
Rowells wrote:

I'm sorry, where did I say 800? Where did I say 5 DDA? Did I ever not specify which sentry I was using? When did you ever ask for a fit? It's either really early or really late where you are because you seem to be reading and writing things that never happened.

Look at post just above BlinkBlink#907. Specifically the part you say
Rowells wrote:

even with grades you're hitting 800dps at 50km, which is almost impossible for other HACs to reach.

I made my point, nice talking to you. Now go ahead and edit #907 post.



The level of idiocy in the drivel you post is staggering.

The ishtar is blatantly imbalanced. A **** throwing monkey has enough intellect to understand this.

Give me one legitimate argument for how the ishtar is balanced; so far not one has been stated in 46 pages.

Battleship dps, cruiser size and speed, hac resists, battleships range, excellent application, selectable damage type, massive versatility, free hi slots.....

Able to do all of this while its position on the battlefield is irrelevant to its target.

WTF. then rise goes and nerfs it's speed by 10m/s. LOL
Odithia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#920 - 2014-08-03 20:23:26 UTC
Phaade wrote:
[quote=Higgs Maken][quote=Rowells]
Give me one legitimate argument for how the ishtar is balanced; so far not one has been stated in 46 pages.

Something something, destructible weapon system.

Also I spent the last six month training for it, therefore I have earned my pocket battleship and it is totally balanced.