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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#881 - 2014-08-02 13:02:45 UTC
they changed the gila because it was too similar too the ishtar ....

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#882 - 2014-08-02 13:13:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Janice en Marland
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
I placed the core of this idea earlier, and have been reading all the comments in the thread.
There is a real polarisation of ideas here, some do not see the problem as real or significant ( possibly because they enjoy things as they are?)
Some see the ishtar as the spawn of the devil and believe it must die at all costs.
Some see sentry drones as the problem as they believe they are a battleship weapon, though this argument also applies to the battlecruisers in the same breath.

IF and I Repeat IF there is a problem with the ishtar as it stands I suggest that the following would change the meta of the ship in its entirety while still giving the ship a role that people would wish to employ.

Allow the ship to fly and specialise in MEDIUM drones, retain bonus to speed of drones, reduce drone bay to 250 and boost them to 80%-85% the same damage levels as are currently applied by their respective racial heavies, however retain 5 mediums and do not further increase hit points beyond current bonuses.


Remove the hit point bonus from sentries on this ship.

Keep the other bonuses unchanged.

This allows the ship to have SOME of the advantages of the gila, some reduced, and some improved over the Gila.
It can still field sentry drones effectively but only 2 flights of sentries that are easier to destroy, it will have fast powerful mediums, which again are destructible as they do not gain the HERO benefits to hit points.

The new meta will give choices that need to be balanced against risk.
The ship will still have a desirable role, if somewhat different.

This is not a suggestion to NERF the Ishtar, it is to change the focus of the ship, retaining it as a powerful HAC but changing the focus from sentries with their associated instant damage application.....


Alternatively create a role for a HAC to be a specialised sentry drone killer capable of destroying them at warden ranges.
Please note that heavy drones would NOT be suitable to replace the mediums suggested.

It seems to much like a Gila. I do like the hit point bonus removal though. Another suggestion I seen was adding medium sentries. That would be interesting.



Unlike the Gila it has a different overall Flavour, it will still be a boat capable of deploying sentries effectively, and deploying Powerful medium drones, however, in exchange for better medium damage and speed, and the ability to deploy sentries, they will have more vulnerable drones. The ship is overall more fragile as well compared to a fully skilled Gila, and will tend to operate at different ranges under most circumstances.

A fair and balanced exchange.

I see the Ishtar as the entry level for heavy and sentry drone and I think a medium drone bonused ship would only encourage medium drone training. Until you get to an Eos or Dominix/Armageddon/Nestor (assuming the VNI would also suffer this fate), you wouldn't be able to field a full flight of either and they would probably need a buff to encourage training for.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#883 - 2014-08-02 13:15:32 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Harvey James wrote:
they changed the gila because it was too similar too the ishtar ....


Yes the ishtar will still be able to field sentries, unlike the gila, and the ishtar will not gain near invulnerable hero drones.

Fragility vs DPS quite different.


And in answer to above post, heavy drones will still apply more damage than mediums, so still a valid option to train for. There is still bandwidth to use, and bay for both a flight of heavies and sentries if you choose. no change to bandwidth is suggested.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#884 - 2014-08-02 13:28:17 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
they changed the gila because it was too similar too the ishtar ....


Yes the ishtar will still be able to field sentries, unlike the gila, and the ishtar will not gain near invulnerable hero drones.

Fragility vs DPS quite different.


And in answer to above post, heavy drones will still apply more damage than mediums, so still a valid option to train for. There is still bandwidth to use, and bay for both a flight of heavies and sentries if you choose. no change to bandwidth is suggested.

Currently, the Gila only gets 41 less DPS with two Hammerheads compared to 5 Gardes on an Ishtar with no damage mods and 95 more with Ogres but this doesn't account for tracking and speed.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#885 - 2014-08-02 13:40:59 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
they changed the gila because it was too similar too the ishtar ....


Yes the ishtar will still be able to field sentries, unlike the gila, and the ishtar will not gain near invulnerable hero drones.

Fragility vs DPS quite different.


And in answer to above post, heavy drones will still apply more damage than mediums, so still a valid option to train for. There is still bandwidth to use, and bay for both a flight of heavies and sentries if you choose. no change to bandwidth is suggested.

Currently, the Gila only gets 41 less DPS with two Hammerheads compared to 5 Gardes on an Ishtar with no damage mods and 95 more with Ogres but this doesn't account for tracking and speed.



It is suggested in the original suggestion that the medium drones are balanced for damage and hit-points completely differently from the gila, rather than I repost it all, you will see that there is still a role for all of the applicable drones rather than making any one choice an automatic default due to it being the only effective one.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#886 - 2014-08-02 13:57:26 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
afkalt wrote:


Exactly. My point previously about fury was they are some fine EFT DPS but the application is absolutely dismal. Unless, like I said it's a mwd shield tanked BC+

Cerberus isn't even in the same league as an Ishtar - but then, not should it be. Could still use an application bonus though as with only two rig slots that really hurts


Because the weapon system you leave behind and can be destroyed needs the same application as the one you dont and cant.

Isnt this the same argument as artys should require cap use because their alpha is high?



HML can't even hit inside their own size class remotely properly. Sentries tear up EVERYTHING. Leaving the weapon behind is advantageous as you can pull and keep the enemy in its optimal - or force them to lose point. It's hardly a severe disadvantage and one trivialised further by being able to restock post battle via depots. You can carry plenty for any normal engagement.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#887 - 2014-08-02 15:52:05 UTC
afkalt wrote:

HML can't even hit inside their own size class remotely properly. Sentries tear up EVERYTHING. Leaving the weapon behind is advantageous as you can pull and keep the enemy in its optimal - or force them to lose point. It's hardly a severe disadvantage and one trivialised further by being able to restock post battle via depots. You can carry plenty for any normal engagement.


You can carry 2 flights at best (or loose the performace at 100km and any ecm drones you might want to have) before restock.

The drop and pull is very same as kiting isnt it?

If we can add the depot with a 1min online to the situation, we can also add rlml, cannot we?

If you said that sentrys are to hard to destroy in pvp, you might get some agreement, but you didnt, so you dont.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#888 - 2014-08-02 16:07:24 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

It is suggested in the original suggestion that the medium drones are balanced for damage and hit-points completely differently from the gila, rather than I repost it all, you will see that there is still a role for all of the applicable drones rather than making any one choice an automatic default due to it being the only effective one.


So we arrive at:

Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed
10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage
10% bonus to Sentry Drone damage

Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):
5000m bonus to Drone operation range
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed
5% bonus to Medium Drone damage (<-- random number, didnt do the math)

Role Bonus:
50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty


Are you sure this is enough to change the percieved pvp situation, 33% reduction in its sentry hp?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#889 - 2014-08-02 16:11:15 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Barton Breau wrote:
afkalt wrote:

HML can't even hit inside their own size class remotely properly. Sentries tear up EVERYTHING. Leaving the weapon behind is advantageous as you can pull and keep the enemy in its optimal - or force them to lose point. It's hardly a severe disadvantage and one trivialised further by being able to restock post battle via depots. You can carry plenty for any normal engagement.


You can carry 2 flights at best (or loose the performace at 100km and any ecm drones you might want to have) before restock.

The drop and pull is very same as kiting isnt it?

If we can add the depot with a 1min online to the situation, we can also add rlml, cannot we?

If you said that sentrys are to hard to destroy in pvp, you might get some agreement, but you didnt, so you dont.


I meant to restock after the fight, not during.

The point I am making is that trying to compare paper fury DPS numbers is a joke, given their application - or utter lack thereof. [Fury vs a MWD thorax does less than 50% of paper DPS and thats WITH 2 rigor II, not even faction gets full DPS out]. Sure, a webbed TP target will improve this, but that will improve everything for all things shooting it so can be set aside.

Edit: it's kiting where getting 'caught' doesn't matter and getting under guns is impossible.
Marian Devers
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
#890 - 2014-08-02 16:35:51 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
One small addition - I'm going to even out the cargo capacity on HACs some in this release, the Zealot's very sad 260 cargo was very annoying.


I sincerely hope that the last 11 pages was mainly everyone pointing fingers and laughing at Rise.
Mario Putzo
#891 - 2014-08-02 16:44:43 UTC
I think with the recent drone changes you should just limit the bonuses to like sized drones.

IE.
Frigs/Dessies = Light Drones
Cruisers/BC = Medium Drones
BS = Heavy AND Sentry Drones
Carriers = Fighters
Supers = Fighters/Bombers

Ships will still be able to field other sized drones (ex. Ishtar using Sentries) but they will be non-bonused.

I think this hits the most birds with one feather. It will reduce Carrier proliferation somewhat (especially in conjunction with the Assist change) and it will give drone battleships a unique utility in the sense they would be the only class with good up/down damage via sentries, and the changes to drone assist help alleviate potential over use of Domis again.

If you truly want drones to be a weapon system like turrets and launchers, then you need to break down the sizes and bonuses them accordingly like all other weapon types.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#892 - 2014-08-02 18:20:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Barton Breau
Mario Putzo wrote:
I think with the recent drone changes you should just limit the bonuses to like sized drones.

IE.
Frigs/Dessies = Light Drones
Cruisers/BC = Medium Drones
BS = Heavy AND Sentry Drones
Carriers = Fighters
Supers = Fighters/Bombers

Ships will still be able to field other sized drones (ex. Ishtar using Sentries) but they will be non-bonused.

I think this hits the most birds with one feather. It will reduce Carrier proliferation somewhat (especially in conjunction with the Assist change) and it will give drone battleships a unique utility in the sense they would be the only class with good up/down damage via sentries, and the changes to drone assist help alleviate potential over use of Domis again.

If you truly want drones to be a weapon system like turrets and launchers, then you need to break down the sizes and bonuses them accordingly like all other weapon types.




How will this change anything about carriers ? What you seem to suggest is already reality for carriers.
Or do you mean reduction to 10 or 5 drones that are not fighters?
Lucas Quaan
DEMONS OF THE HIDDEN MIST
TRUTH. HONOUR. LIGHT.
#893 - 2014-08-02 20:03:30 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?

8/6/5 and we can have the oversized Hurricane we always wanted.

Or just fly a Mach, I guess.
Syd Unknown
#894 - 2014-08-02 22:15:06 UTC
Madbuster73 wrote:
Muninn needs more then just a speed buff.....
Muninn has always been very underwhelming.
It used to good as a snipingboat popping frigates, but since they buffed frigates and nerfed Tracking enhancers,
the Muninn was not seen much anymore.

For Example:
Muninn has way less TANK compared to the other HACs
Muninn has way less EFFECTIVE RANGE compared to other HACS (while at its core it is a sniping ship)


For comparison I looked up the numbers for the most used Doctrines of these ships:

Armor Zealot ----------63k EHP-- with 406 dps at --44k-- optimal with -0.076- Tracking with Scorch[/u]
Rail Eagle--------------50k EHP-- with 430 dps at --46k-- optimal with -0.033- Tracking Navy Antimatter
Shield Ishtar-----------45k EHP-- with 700 dps at --48k-- optimal with -0.049- Tracking with Gardes
Artillery Muninn--------38k EHP-- with 450 dps at --27k-- optimal with -0.042- Tracking with RF EMP


When you look at those stats it is clear the the Muninn needs more tank and more Optimal/Fallof range to be at par with the rest. You can also clearly see that the eagle could use a bit more tracking speed.

I hope you will give the Muninn some love.



^^ This
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#895 - 2014-08-02 23:57:26 UTC
Now put MF on that Zealot and tell me what it's DPS & range are.
Also try putting fall off ranges on all those range figures. Since you didn't bother to list them at all then talk about how it needs more range.
And ship speeds.

Ignoring Ishtar, the Muninn is actually putting out the most DPS of the three HAC's you listed, so obviously it's range won't be as much.
What your figures actually say is the Ishtar is totally OP.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#896 - 2014-08-03 00:36:57 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Now put MF on that Zealot and tell me what it's DPS & range are.
Also try putting fall off ranges on all those range figures. Since you didn't bother to list them at all then talk about how it needs more range.
And ship speeds.

Ignoring Ishtar, the Muninn is actually putting out the most DPS of the three HAC's you listed, so obviously it's range won't be as much.
What your figures actually say is the Ishtar is totally OP.


How do you figure? He listed optimal as thats where you can put out the highest possible damage. Once you hit fall-off, dps begins to drop. Fall-off is not necessary for the discussion he was making. The zealots/muninn/eagle/ishtar all provide "optimal" bonuses, not fall-off. All ships are meant as long range snipers (arty/rail/sentries/beam or scorch) that apply a large portion of their DPS at those ranges.

Even if we do factor in fall-off, the muninn may have better dps, but at the minimum optimal of the other HAC's (44km) its doing 149dps. Nothing to really get excited about. Compare that to the 406 of the zealot at its optimal, not including fall-off on the zeal. Meaning, the other hac's can project and apply DPS much better than muninn.

I see more zeal's/ishtars and even eagles than muninns nowadays. There's a reason for that. Its just not good at anything it was intended for, and is in need of a buff.

Perhaps if they gave tremor ammo a big buff, you could artificially raise optimal on muninn, and still put out reasonable dps. As it sits now, you could do 229dps out to 80-90km with tremor.. or maybe buff optimal on medium artillery. Even with those fixes though, muninn still needs a buff to PG and possibly adding a mid.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#897 - 2014-08-03 00:48:55 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Now put MF on that Zealot and tell me what it's DPS & range are.
Also try putting fall off ranges on all those range figures. Since you didn't bother to list them at all then talk about how it needs more range.
And ship speeds.

Ignoring Ishtar, the Muninn is actually putting out the most DPS of the three HAC's you listed, so obviously it's range won't be as much.
What your figures actually say is the Ishtar is totally OP.

I though Gallente was DPS, Amarr tracking, Minmatar alpha, and Caldari range. It seems like all is in line if you look at it like that (except the Eagle).
Higgs Maken
The Metal Box Company
#898 - 2014-08-03 01:21:27 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

( possibly because they enjoy things as they are?)

Anyone who disagree with you must have an hidden agenda right? Come on Ishtar has been using 5 sentry drones for the past few years, and it's fine then, why it is OP now? Sentry is fine on Ishtar then, why is sentry a battleship weapon now? Why now? Address that! Instead of simply claiming Ishtar is OP we need to nerf it, blah blah blah. You do that, I would have to ask the mandatory question: point on the doll which part did Ishtar touch you. Make your case before you give suggestion to fix the 'problem'.

Do you know why Rise change 'Bonus to drone tracking and optimal range'? Because that one of the more recent change to that hull.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#899 - 2014-08-03 02:32:31 UTC
Higgs Maken wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

( possibly because they enjoy things as they are?)

Anyone who disagree with you must have an hidden agenda right? Come on Ishtar has been using 5 sentry drones for the past few years, and it's fine then, why it is OP now? Sentry is fine on Ishtar then, why is sentry a battleship weapon now? Why now? Address that! Instead of simply claiming Ishtar is OP we need to nerf it, blah blah blah. You do that, I would have to ask the mandatory question: point on the doll which part did Ishtar touch you. Make your case before you give suggestion to fix the 'problem'.

Do you know why Rise change 'Bonus to drone tracking and optimal range'? Because that one of the more recent change to that hull.

Ishtar wasn't argued OP before because DDAs and range tracking bonuses. Once those two things came out it made it much more powerful. I agree that sentries are fine on any drone boat that can fit them. However, the reason the ishtar is using them so often now is because it was designed and balanced around factors that didnt exist now.

I dont mind a HAC having such high dps, but when its compared to the other HACs, you dont find any ship that has the same damage application and high-end (for cruisers) dps. If either one of those was drawn back, then i believe the benefits of the other could stay just fine.

I mentioned earlier that it might be reasonable to change the bandwidth on Heavies and the ishtar (maybe its T1 variants as well) so that flying 5 sentries would not be possible, but 5 heavies would still be. I'm even in favor of letting it keep its current range bonuses. This still leaves you with having the options for damage application or raw dps, without having both at the max at the same time. Unless (god forbid) heaby drone ishtar fleets become a thing and everyone whines about those.
Dino Zavr
Shadow Owls
#900 - 2014-08-03 03:35:40 UTC
Hi, folxs

Considering the trend, after Ishtar castration, Navy Vexor is to be the next OP, then the sentries would become the root of evil.. again
(Needless to say we hardly ever see full bandwidth 125 Mbps T3)
From my humble point of view the subsequent drones nerfing continues. Or am i wrong?