These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#861 - 2014-08-02 11:15:22 UTC
Marc Durant wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
I never said a Dominix was a counter to an Ishtar. I have broken down the concept that a Dominix can do more damage with sentries than an Ishtar. With the MJD, you have the ability to keep the ranged engagements or apply DPS(neuts, smartbombs, etc.) up close. The Dominix purpose isn't to snipe (even though it can do it more than adequately). The Ishtar was designed to engage targets at range.


No.

1) at ranges where sentries work blaster don't work, and vice versa. As such making a combo if those two and then go "look at that dps" is unrealistic.

2) while the Domi can't really get away with a shield fit in most situations the Ishtar can and generally does, LSE scales much better on cruisers and its innate t2 resists help a ton. As such the ishtar can easily fit 3 DDA and if you don't need a nanofiber even a 4th. Making it no different (and actually better in many cases) than the Domi.


Use Ogres instead. A Dominix still has higher DPS. No matter how you twist it.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#862 - 2014-08-02 11:17:04 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
that eos/tristan gun tracking bonus sure is utter trash. ccp please fix.

I agree. Add content instead of taking it away.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#863 - 2014-08-02 11:17:34 UTC
Marc Durant wrote:


That's funny, your 589 dps is the exact number you get when you use fury and OH. There is no other way to get even remotely close to that dps number at ~100km. You could get close to it if you'd use a silly fit or include the awesome dps gain from those 3 lights and somehow assume they apply damage at 100km.

589 is the exact number with using Fury, OH and 3 bcs.


Try heavy, 4 bcs (why not, you assume 4 on ishtar for 750 all the time), rig and implants, because YOU can :)
Marc Durant
#864 - 2014-08-02 11:26:46 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
Marc Durant wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
I never said a Dominix was a counter to an Ishtar. I have broken down the concept that a Dominix can do more damage with sentries than an Ishtar. With the MJD, you have the ability to keep the ranged engagements or apply DPS(neuts, smartbombs, etc.) up close. The Dominix purpose isn't to snipe (even though it can do it more than adequately). The Ishtar was designed to engage targets at range.


No.

1) at ranges where sentries work blaster don't work, and vice versa. As such making a combo if those two and then go "look at that dps" is unrealistic.

2) while the Domi can't really get away with a shield fit in most situations the Ishtar can and generally does, LSE scales much better on cruisers and its innate t2 resists help a ton. As such the ishtar can easily fit 3 DDA and if you don't need a nanofiber even a 4th. Making it no different (and actually better in many cases) than the Domi.


Use Ogres instead. A Dominix still has higher DPS. No matter how you twist it.



Nothing to twist if the subject we're discussing is sentries.

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.
Marc Durant
#865 - 2014-08-02 11:27:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Marc Durant
Barton Breau wrote:
Marc Durant wrote:


That's funny, your 589 dps is the exact number you get when you use fury and OH. There is no other way to get even remotely close to that dps number at ~100km. You could get close to it if you'd use a silly fit or include the awesome dps gain from those 3 lights and somehow assume they apply damage at 100km.

589 is the exact number with using Fury, OH and 3 bcs.


Try heavy, 4 bcs (why not, you assume 4 on ishtar for 750 all the time), rig and implants, because YOU can :)



Because the Ishtar has 5 lows whereas the Cerb has 4, if this needs to be explained to you then just stop now. Also, go compare your rof rigged & implanted dps to a Raven that does the same, guess what... the Raven does more.

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.
Odithia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#866 - 2014-08-02 11:30:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Odithia
Marc Durant wrote:


nono, go and find out how much those unbonused, non tracking/range modded 425s are really going to add in any meaningful way. And of course taking into account you're using several of your high slots for drone related stuff like a link or two. Once you figured that out do tell us.


As much as a unbonussed 250mm Railgun, I'm not even jocking.
~evebalance~
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#867 - 2014-08-02 11:32:19 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
This is just silly. I thought the "battlship level DPS" meant DPS numbers obtained from a battleship. Not DPS to 90k. An Eos with Heavys and Blasters and produce Battleship level DPS while providing links.


You're thinking of paper DPS, a HAM tengu can get there, but the DPS is useless unless you can actually project it. Megas, Apocs, TFI can all project good DPS at range but ishtar can do it while being close to untouchable with better resists (but less EHP) at speeds up to 2.7k/s. On a domi this is not an issue as bombs wreck havoc to them due to size and lower resist profile.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#868 - 2014-08-02 11:37:19 UTC
Marc Durant wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
Marc Durant wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
I never said a Dominix was a counter to an Ishtar. I have broken down the concept that a Dominix can do more damage with sentries than an Ishtar. With the MJD, you have the ability to keep the ranged engagements or apply DPS(neuts, smartbombs, etc.) up close. The Dominix purpose isn't to snipe (even though it can do it more than adequately). The Ishtar was designed to engage targets at range.


No.

1) at ranges where sentries work blaster don't work, and vice versa. As such making a combo if those two and then go "look at that dps" is unrealistic.

2) while the Domi can't really get away with a shield fit in most situations the Ishtar can and generally does, LSE scales much better on cruisers and its innate t2 resists help a ton. As such the ishtar can easily fit 3 DDA and if you don't need a nanofiber even a 4th. Making it no different (and actually better in many cases) than the Domi.


Use Ogres instead. A Dominix still has higher DPS. No matter how you twist it.



Nothing to twist if the subject we're discussing is sentries.

The Ishtar with 5 DDA2 and Garde 2=766 DPS. Dominix with 6 DDA2 and Garde 2 =773. I know its silly to add this many but the Dominix can bring more DPS WITHOUT factoring in the two extra highs.
Marc Durant
#869 - 2014-08-02 11:41:34 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
The Ishtar with 5 DDA2 and Garde 2=766 DPS. Dominix with 6 DDA2 and Garde 2 =773. I know its silly to add this many but the Dominix can bring more DPS WITHOUT factoring in the two extra highs.


Thank you for disqualifying yourself. EFT warrior shitfit nonsense where you use 6 damage mods to support your frantic attempt to "hide" how a ship is overpowered is hilarious, and quite entertaining.

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#870 - 2014-08-02 11:47:32 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
This is just silly. I thought the "battlship level DPS" meant DPS numbers obtained from a battleship. Not DPS to 90k. An Eos with Heavys and Blasters and produce Battleship level DPS while providing links.


You're thinking of paper DPS, a HAM tengu can get there, but the DPS is useless unless you can actually project it. Megas, Apocs, TFI can all project good DPS at range but ishtar can do it while being close to untouchable with better resists (but less EHP) at speeds up to 2.7k/s. On a domi this is not an issue as bombs wreck havoc to them due to size and lower resist profile.

An Eos with blasters and heavy drone applies more DPS in optimal than an Ishtar with sentries. A Dominix with heavies and blasters applies more DPS in optimal than the Eos. See how that progresses.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#871 - 2014-08-02 11:54:55 UTC
Marc Durant wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
The Ishtar with 5 DDA2 and Garde 2=766 DPS. Dominix with 6 DDA2 and Garde 2 =773. I know its silly to add this many but the Dominix can bring more DPS WITHOUT factoring in the two extra highs.


Thank you for disqualifying yourself. EFT warrior shitfit nonsense where you use 6 damage mods to support your frantic attempt to "hide" how a ship is overpowered is hilarious, and quite entertaining.

Mudsling all you want. The Dominix can bring(and project) more DPS with sentries than an Ishtar.
Marc Durant
#872 - 2014-08-02 11:59:28 UTC
Perhaps we should all just come to the easy conclusion that you're too stupid to poop.

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#873 - 2014-08-02 11:59:36 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
This is just silly. I thought the "battlship level DPS" meant DPS numbers obtained from a battleship. Not DPS to 90k. An Eos with Heavys and Blasters and produce Battleship level DPS while providing links.


You're thinking of paper DPS, a HAM tengu can get there, but the DPS is useless unless you can actually project it. Megas, Apocs, TFI can all project good DPS at range but ishtar can do it while being close to untouchable with better resists (but less EHP) at speeds up to 2.7k/s. On a domi this is not an issue as bombs wreck havoc to them due to size and lower resist profile.

An Eos with blasters and heavy drone applies more DPS in optimal than an Ishtar with sentries. A Dominix with heavies and blasters applies more DPS in optimal than the Eos. See how that progresses.


Yet you will not be able to hit an enemy fleet with that. I suggest you take part in a fleet fight against Ishtars with domis and wonder why you cannot hit them.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#874 - 2014-08-02 12:06:01 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
This is just silly. I thought the "battlship level DPS" meant DPS numbers obtained from a battleship. Not DPS to 90k. An Eos with Heavys and Blasters and produce Battleship level DPS while providing links.


You're thinking of paper DPS, a HAM tengu can get there, but the DPS is useless unless you can actually project it. Megas, Apocs, TFI can all project good DPS at range but ishtar can do it while being close to untouchable with better resists (but less EHP) at speeds up to 2.7k/s. On a domi this is not an issue as bombs wreck havoc to them due to size and lower resist profile.

An Eos with blasters and heavy drone applies more DPS in optimal than an Ishtar with sentries. A Dominix with heavies and blasters applies more DPS in optimal than the Eos. See how that progresses.


Yet you will not be able to hit an enemy fleet with that. I suggest you take part in a fleet fight against Ishtars with domis and wonder why you cannot hit them.

I have already stated the Dominix is not the counter to Ishtars.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#875 - 2014-08-02 12:11:16 UTC
Marc Durant wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Marc Durant wrote:


That's funny, your 589 dps is the exact number you get when you use fury and OH. There is no other way to get even remotely close to that dps number at ~100km. You could get close to it if you'd use a silly fit or include the awesome dps gain from those 3 lights and somehow assume they apply damage at 100km.

589 is the exact number with using Fury, OH and 3 bcs.


Try heavy, 4 bcs (why not, you assume 4 on ishtar for 750 all the time), rig and implants, because YOU can :)



Because the Ishtar has 5 lows whereas the Cerb has 4, if this needs to be explained to you then just stop now. Also, go compare your rof rigged & implanted dps to a Raven that does the same, guess what... the Raven does more.


Exactly. My point previously about fury was they are some fine EFT DPS but the application is absolutely dismal. Unless, like I said it's a mwd shield tanked BC+

Cerberus isn't even in the same league as an Ishtar - but then, not should it be. Could still use an application bonus though as with only two rig slots that really hurts
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#876 - 2014-08-02 12:28:55 UTC
Marc Durant wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Marc Durant wrote:


That's funny, your 589 dps is the exact number you get when you use fury and OH. There is no other way to get even remotely close to that dps number at ~100km. You could get close to it if you'd use a silly fit or include the awesome dps gain from those 3 lights and somehow assume they apply damage at 100km.

589 is the exact number with using Fury, OH and 3 bcs.


Try heavy, 4 bcs (why not, you assume 4 on ishtar for 750 all the time), rig and implants, because YOU can :)



Because the Ishtar has 5 lows whereas the Cerb has 4, if this needs to be explained to you then just stop now. Also, go compare your rof rigged & implanted dps to a Raven that does the same, guess what... the Raven does more.


Yes because 33dps whether + or - is all we are talking about.

We are not talking about nerfing the raven, are we?

Are you getting lost?
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#877 - 2014-08-02 12:36:03 UTC
afkalt wrote:


Exactly. My point previously about fury was they are some fine EFT DPS but the application is absolutely dismal. Unless, like I said it's a mwd shield tanked BC+

Cerberus isn't even in the same league as an Ishtar - but then, not should it be. Could still use an application bonus though as with only two rig slots that really hurts


Because the weapon system you leave behind and can be destroyed needs the same application as the one you dont and cant.

Isnt this the same argument as artys should require cap use because their alpha is high?
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#878 - 2014-08-02 12:44:03 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
I placed the core of this idea earlier, and have been reading all the comments in the thread.
There is a real polarisation of ideas here, some do not see the problem as real or significant ( possibly because they enjoy things as they are?)
Some see the ishtar as the spawn of the devil and believe it must die at all costs.
Some see sentry drones as the problem as they believe they are a battleship weapon, though this argument also applies to the battlecruisers in the same breath.

IF and I Repeat IF there is a problem with the ishtar as it stands I suggest that the following would change the meta of the ship in its entirety while still giving the ship a role that people would wish to employ.

Allow the ship to fly and specialise in MEDIUM drones, retain bonus to speed of drones and extend it to mediums, reduce drone bay to 250 and boost them to 80%-85% the same damage levels as are currently applied by their respective racial heavies, however retain 5 mediums and do not further increase hit points beyond current bonuses.


Remove the hit point bonus from sentries on this ship.

Keep the other bonuses unchanged.

This allows the ship to have SOME of the advantages of the gila, some reduced, and some improved over the Gila.
It can still field sentry drones effectively but only 2 flights of sentries that are easier to destroy, it will have fast powerful mediums, which again are destructible as they do not gain the HERO benefits to hit points.

The new meta will give choices that need to be balanced against risk.
The ship will still have a desirable role, if somewhat different.
It will be interesting to fight and to fight with, as one can not automatically deduce how it is fit to deal damage.

This is not a suggestion to NERF the Ishtar, it is to change the focus of the ship, retaining it as a powerful HAC but changing the focus from sentries with their associated instant damage application.....


Alternatively create a role for a HAC to be a specialised sentry drone killer capable of destroying them at warden ranges.
Changing the heavy missile damage application on the Cerberus could achieve this, or by making one of the less popular Hacs fit this role.

Important!
Please note that heavy drones would NOT be suitable to replace the mediums suggested.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#879 - 2014-08-02 12:49:22 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
I placed the core of this idea earlier, and have been reading all the comments in the thread.
There is a real polarisation of ideas here, some do not see the problem as real or significant ( possibly because they enjoy things as they are?)
Some see the ishtar as the spawn of the devil and believe it must die at all costs.
Some see sentry drones as the problem as they believe they are a battleship weapon, though this argument also applies to the battlecruisers in the same breath.

IF and I Repeat IF there is a problem with the ishtar as it stands I suggest that the following would change the meta of the ship in its entirety while still giving the ship a role that people would wish to employ.

Allow the ship to fly and specialise in MEDIUM drones, retain bonus to speed of drones, reduce drone bay to 250 and boost them to 80%-85% the same damage levels as are currently applied by their respective racial heavies, however retain 5 mediums and do not further increase hit points beyond current bonuses.


Remove the hit point bonus from sentries on this ship.

Keep the other bonuses unchanged.

This allows the ship to have SOME of the advantages of the gila, some reduced, and some improved over the Gila.
It can still field sentry drones effectively but only 2 flights of sentries that are easier to destroy, it will have fast powerful mediums, which again are destructible as they do not gain the HERO benefits to hit points.

The new meta will give choices that need to be balanced against risk.
The ship will still have a desirable role, if somewhat different.

This is not a suggestion to NERF the Ishtar, it is to change the focus of the ship, retaining it as a powerful HAC but changing the focus from sentries with their associated instant damage application.....


Alternatively create a role for a HAC to be a specialised sentry drone killer capable of destroying them at warden ranges.
Please note that heavy drones would NOT be suitable to replace the mediums suggested.

It seems to much like a Gila. I do like the hit point bonus removal though. Another suggestion I seen was adding medium sentries. That would be interesting.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#880 - 2014-08-02 12:57:46 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Janice en Marland wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
I placed the core of this idea earlier, and have been reading all the comments in the thread.
There is a real polarisation of ideas here, some do not see the problem as real or significant ( possibly because they enjoy things as they are?)
Some see the ishtar as the spawn of the devil and believe it must die at all costs.
Some see sentry drones as the problem as they believe they are a battleship weapon, though this argument also applies to the battlecruisers in the same breath.

IF and I Repeat IF there is a problem with the ishtar as it stands I suggest that the following would change the meta of the ship in its entirety while still giving the ship a role that people would wish to employ.

Allow the ship to fly and specialise in MEDIUM drones, retain bonus to speed of drones, reduce drone bay to 250 and boost them to 80%-85% the same damage levels as are currently applied by their respective racial heavies, however retain 5 mediums and do not further increase hit points beyond current bonuses.


Remove the hit point bonus from sentries on this ship.

Keep the other bonuses unchanged.

This allows the ship to have SOME of the advantages of the gila, some reduced, and some improved over the Gila.
It can still field sentry drones effectively but only 2 flights of sentries that are easier to destroy, it will have fast powerful mediums, which again are destructible as they do not gain the HERO benefits to hit points.

The new meta will give choices that need to be balanced against risk.
The ship will still have a desirable role, if somewhat different.

This is not a suggestion to NERF the Ishtar, it is to change the focus of the ship, retaining it as a powerful HAC but changing the focus from sentries with their associated instant damage application.....


Alternatively create a role for a HAC to be a specialised sentry drone killer capable of destroying them at warden ranges.
Please note that heavy drones would NOT be suitable to replace the mediums suggested.

It seems to much like a Gila. I do like the hit point bonus removal though. Another suggestion I seen was adding medium sentries. That would be interesting.



Unlike the Gila it has a different overall Flavour, it will still be a boat capable of deploying sentries effectively, and deploying Powerful medium drones, however, in exchange for better medium damage and speed, and the ability to deploy sentries, they will have more vulnerable drones. The ship is overall more fragile as well compared to a fully skilled Gila, and will tend to operate at different ranges under most circumstances.

A fair and balanced exchange.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE