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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#821 - 2014-08-02 02:12:58 UTC
While we have the nerf bat out, can you please nerf the Harpy and Cerberus? Our alliance is to large and slow to adapt to these constant changes. Please help us.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#822 - 2014-08-02 05:45:25 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
nerf the Harpy

Only on the condition that you never ever touch my Hawk.

Oh god.
Marc Durant
#823 - 2014-08-02 06:20:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Marc Durant
I fly Ishtars, I think they're OP and this silly stat change isn't going to alter that. I fly the ishtar because it's the best option, not because it's the most enjoyable so if you make it less silly OP then I can choose other ships to use. Now you have to be a fool not to fly one, I want them to be viable option but not the only option. Here's how I look at it;


- sentries in and of themselves are fine

- drone assignment is a silly thing that has no real game mechanic use and might as well be removed. Whether or not fighters should keep it is even debatable, we have it because at some point CCP thought it was a cool idea but I feel we could/should have a thorough discussion on that. Personally I think that from a gameplay/balance pov we can remove it, yes the whining will be glorious but other than "because we have it atm" there's no valid reason for it.

- while sentries are fine, 5 of them on a cruiser hull is not fine. Their damage and projection is beyond silly compared to other medium weapon systems. a Vaga does not do BS lvls of dps, neither does a Zealot, Deimos, Cerb or any other HAC and they certainly don't have their projection (they may have the range but lack the dps). The odd one out is of course the Ishtar. Capable of doing 750@50m and 620@120km (depending on fit of course but for some uses those are factual numbers), that's just moronic levels of projection. Yes, drones have their own problems yaddayadda but no problem is bad enough to make those numbers defendable.

If you compare it to other HAC damage projection then lowering the number of sentries to 4 isn't even enough, 3 seems to be much more on par but that would get a bit awkward. Personally I feel that the drone range bonus should be removed and only leave a tracking one and then drop the number of sentries to 4. That would lower the overall silly dps numbers and the projection issue making it more in line with other HACS. I would even go as far as limiting the number of heavies because in their own right they create the same problem; cruisers should not be able to do the same as a BS.



TLDR; Drop bandwidth to 100m3 (same on VNI), remove drone range bonus on the Ishtar (and also Domi for that matter) but keep the tracking one. Remove drone assigning.

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#824 - 2014-08-02 07:00:43 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
nerf the Harpy

Only on the condition that you never ever touch my Hawk.

That doesn't fall under any of our current doctrines. Nerf it also.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#825 - 2014-08-02 07:09:33 UTC
Marc Durant wrote:
I fly Ishtars, I think they're OP and this silly stat change isn't going to alter that. I fly the ishtar because it's the best option, not because it's the most enjoyable so if you make it less silly OP then I can choose other ships to use. Now you have to be a fool not to fly one, I want them to be viable option but not the only option. Here's how I look at it;


- sentries in and of themselves are fine

- drone assignment is a silly thing that has no real game mechanic use and might as well be removed. Whether or not fighters should keep it is even debatable, we have it because at some point CCP thought it was a cool idea but I feel we could/should have a thorough discussion on that. Personally I think that from a gameplay/balance pov we can remove it, yes the whining will be glorious but other than "because we have it atm" there's no valid reason for it.

- while sentries are fine, 5 of them on a cruiser hull is not fine. Their damage and projection is beyond silly compared to other medium weapon systems. a Vaga does not do BS lvls of dps, neither does a Zealot, Deimos, Cerb or any other HAC and they certainly don't have their projection (they may have the range but lack the dps). The odd one out is of course the Ishtar. Capable of doing 750@50m and 620@120km (depending on fit of course but for some uses those are factual numbers), that's just moronic levels of projection. Yes, drones have their own problems yaddayadda but no problem is bad enough to make those numbers defendable.

If you compare it to other HAC damage projection then lowering the number of sentries to 4 isn't even enough, 3 seems to be much more on par but that would get a bit awkward. Personally I feel that the drone range bonus should be removed and only leave a tracking one and then drop the number of sentries to 4. That would lower the overall silly dps numbers and the projection issue making it more in line with other HACS. I would even go as far as limiting the number of heavies because in their own right they create the same problem; cruisers should not be able to do the same as a BS.



TLDR; Drop bandwidth to 100m3 (same on VNI), remove drone range bonus on the Ishtar (and also Domi for that matter) but keep the tracking one. Remove drone assigning.

The Ishtar fills a niche no other HAC does. If anything I suggest a buff of the Eagle. Can we also define BS level DPS?
Nenwe
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#826 - 2014-08-02 07:34:17 UTC
Ishtar is not fine as it is currently when you can do BS level DPS in PVP or PVE

Compared to other HACs Ishtar is the best choice and most of the time only choice for mission running or PVP from HACs no other HAC comes even close to the dps numbers Ishtar can do so is Ishtar Overpowered yes it is should it be nerfed yes how is the question most people are asking and i think removing the ability to even equip sentrys would be good for balance. (use heavies and mediums and lights like the ship was designed to use originally)
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#827 - 2014-08-02 07:40:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Barton Breau
Marc Durant wrote:

- while sentries are fine, 5 of them on a cruiser hull is not fine. Their damage and projection is beyond silly compared to other medium weapon systems. a Vaga does not do BS lvls of dps, neither does a Zealot, Deimos, Cerb or any other HAC and they certainly don't have their projection (they may have the range but lack the dps). The odd one out is of course the Ishtar. Capable of doing 750@50m and 620@120km (depending on fit of course but for some uses those are factual numbers), that's just moronic levels of projection. Yes, drones have their own problems yaddayadda but no problem is bad enough to make those numbers defendable.


Dunno, i see cerb fits with 589@122 , 340/626@109 and 812@43 , so yes, please define battleship level of dps, because we have bs doing from ~600 ( artys :( ) trough domis 750 up to abaddon doing 950 @ 30-45km, not even going into pirate ones and faction amplifiers or , gosh, overheating :)
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#828 - 2014-08-02 07:50:28 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
The Ishtar fills a niche no other HAC does. If anything I suggest a buff of the Eagle. Can we also define BS level DPS?


BS level DPS = DPS level exceeding projection and damage of medium weapon systems with a significant margin.
Marc Durant
#829 - 2014-08-02 07:59:42 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
The Ishtar fills a niche no other HAC does. If anything I suggest a buff of the Eagle. Can we also define BS level DPS?


Its "niche" is being silly OP. It's not difficult to define it, you look up comparable BS with proper fits and you... compare them.




Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.
Chrissolyn
Gladdebacher's
#830 - 2014-08-02 08:02:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Chrissolyn
Muninn

Personally i think it really needs a buff in powergrid, say ~100.

Otherwise the muninn is fine (although a 4th mid would not scratch it) ^^



Oh and consider to add a small dronebay on the eagle, because its new model has a bay now :>
Marc Durant
#831 - 2014-08-02 08:07:53 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Marc Durant wrote:

- while sentries are fine, 5 of them on a cruiser hull is not fine. Their damage and projection is beyond silly compared to other medium weapon systems. a Vaga does not do BS lvls of dps, neither does a Zealot, Deimos, Cerb or any other HAC and they certainly don't have their projection (they may have the range but lack the dps). The odd one out is of course the Ishtar. Capable of doing 750@50m and 620@120km (depending on fit of course but for some uses those are factual numbers), that's just moronic levels of projection. Yes, drones have their own problems yaddayadda but no problem is bad enough to make those numbers defendable.


Dunno, i see cerb fits with 589@122 , 340/626@109 and 812@43 , so yes, please define battleship level of dps, because we have bs doing from ~600 ( artys :( ) trough domis 750 up to abaddon doing 950 @ 30-45km, not even going into pirate ones and faction amplifiers or , gosh, overheating :)



If you start using OH numbers for that cerb you'll have to also use OH numbers for its BS counterpart; the Raven. And then the Raven does a lot more dps.

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#832 - 2014-08-02 08:18:31 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
The Ishtar fills a niche no other HAC does. If anything I suggest a buff of the Eagle. Can we also define BS level DPS?


BS level DPS = DPS level exceeding projection and damage of medium weapon systems with a significant margin.

So where do Command Ships fall into this? If I'm not mistaken an Eos can out DPS an Ishtar.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#833 - 2014-08-02 08:23:12 UTC
Marc Durant wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
The Ishtar fills a niche no other HAC does. If anything I suggest a buff of the Eagle. Can we also define BS level DPS?


Its "niche" is being silly OP. It's not difficult to define it, you look up comparable BS with proper fits and you... compare them.





A properly fit Dominix can out DPS an Ishtar.
Marc Durant
#834 - 2014-08-02 08:37:50 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
Marc Durant wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
The Ishtar fills a niche no other HAC does. If anything I suggest a buff of the Eagle. Can we also define BS level DPS?


Its "niche" is being silly OP. It's not difficult to define it, you look up comparable BS with proper fits and you... compare them.





A properly fit Dominix can out DPS an Ishtar.



Sure, go tell us how much more a domi does at 50km or 100km while using a realistic fit.

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#835 - 2014-08-02 08:49:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Adrie Atticus
Janice en Marland wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
The Ishtar fills a niche no other HAC does. If anything I suggest a buff of the Eagle. Can we also define BS level DPS?


BS level DPS = DPS level exceeding projection and damage of medium weapon systems with a significant margin.

So where do Command Ships fall into this? If I'm not mistaken an Eos can out DPS an Ishtar.


With what kind of a fit? I've never seen Eos flown as anything else than an actual command ship as the bonuses are not really fleet-worthy. I'm seeing exact same DPS output (because of bonuses) as Ishtar, minus tracking and optimals which is a major reason why Ishtar is used, 37,5% helps with applied DPS immensely, here's a pretty graph with Bouncers against a shield-tanked tengu:

http://i.imgur.com/SJx3M3t.jpg

Same graph with Gardes against a Guardian:

http://i.imgur.com/5f8aXUs.jpg

Bouncers against a Guardian:

http://i.imgur.com/S4hUu7p.jpg

Eos is built around heavy drones which would take considerable time to reach to 60k to hit anything and in case of anything going over 2,1k (like an ishtar) the heavies would not even be able to catch them.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#836 - 2014-08-02 08:53:04 UTC
Marc Durant wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
Marc Durant wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
The Ishtar fills a niche no other HAC does. If anything I suggest a buff of the Eagle. Can we also define BS level DPS?


Its "niche" is being silly OP. It's not difficult to define it, you look up comparable BS with proper fits and you... compare them.





A properly fit Dominix can out DPS an Ishtar.



Sure, go tell us how much more a domi does at 50km or 100km while using a realistic fit.

Well since they both have the same drone damage bonus, the Dominix can field the same amount of drones, more lows for damage mods and use large weapons, one might assume it could do more damage. By realistic, you mean eligible for SRP from your alliance?
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#837 - 2014-08-02 08:55:42 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
The Ishtar fills a niche no other HAC does. If anything I suggest a buff of the Eagle. Can we also define BS level DPS?


BS level DPS = DPS level exceeding projection and damage of medium weapon systems with a significant margin.

So where do Command Ships fall into this? If I'm not mistaken an Eos can out DPS an Ishtar.


With what kind of a fit? I've never seen Eos flown as anything else than an actual command ship as the bonuses are not really fleet-worthy. I'm seeing exact same DPS output (because of bonuses) as Ishtar, minus tracking and optimals which is a major reason why Ishtar is used, 37,5% helps with applied DPS immensely, here's a pretty graph with Bouncers against a shield-tanked tengu:

http://i.imgur.com/SJx3M3t.jpg

Same graph with Gardes against a Guardian:

http://i.imgur.com/5f8aXUs.jpg

Bouncers against a Guardian:

http://i.imgur.com/S4hUu7p.jpg

Eos is built around heavy drones which would take considerable time to reach to 60k to hit anything and in case of anything going over 2,1k (like an ishtar) the heavies would not even be able to catch them.

Do you have the fits to go with the pretty graphs?
GrandLynx
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#838 - 2014-08-02 08:58:07 UTC
Increase the cost of sentries to make abandoning them prohibitive. Destroying them is realistic gain.
Marc Durant
#839 - 2014-08-02 09:07:19 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
Marc Durant wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
Marc Durant wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
The Ishtar fills a niche no other HAC does. If anything I suggest a buff of the Eagle. Can we also define BS level DPS?


Its "niche" is being silly OP. It's not difficult to define it, you look up comparable BS with proper fits and you... compare them.





A properly fit Dominix can out DPS an Ishtar.



Sure, go tell us how much more a domi does at 50km or 100km while using a realistic fit.

Well since they both have the same drone damage bonus, the Dominix can field the same amount of drones, more lows for damage mods and use large weapons, one might assume it could do more damage. By realistic, you mean eligible for SRP from your alliance?


nono, go and find out how much those unbonused, non tracking/range modded 425s are really going to add in any meaningful way. And of course taking into account you're using several of your high slots for drone related stuff like a link or two. Once you figured that out do tell us.

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#840 - 2014-08-02 09:09:23 UTC
Marc Durant wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Marc Durant wrote:

- while sentries are fine, 5 of them on a cruiser hull is not fine. Their damage and projection is beyond silly compared to other medium weapon systems. a Vaga does not do BS lvls of dps, neither does a Zealot, Deimos, Cerb or any other HAC and they certainly don't have their projection (they may have the range but lack the dps). The odd one out is of course the Ishtar. Capable of doing 750@50m and 620@120km (depending on fit of course but for some uses those are factual numbers), that's just moronic levels of projection. Yes, drones have their own problems yaddayadda but no problem is bad enough to make those numbers defendable.


Dunno, i see cerb fits with 589@122 , 340/626@109 and 812@43 , so yes, please define battleship level of dps, because we have bs doing from ~600 ( artys :( ) trough domis 750 up to abaddon doing 950 @ 30-45km, not even going into pirate ones and faction amplifiers or , gosh, overheating :)



If you start using OH numbers for that cerb you'll have to also use OH numbers for its BS counterpart; the Raven. And then the Raven does a lot more dps.


Never mind heat, fury heavy missiles.....because they work well on anything smaller than a MWD shield tanked battle cruiser and up....or not.