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Crius Feedback

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Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#501 - 2014-07-31 17:42:46 UTC
Deriah Book wrote:
I have three questions after 90 minutes of futzing with the SI UI and getting next to nothing done.

1. Can we in fact see predictions of the outcome of different levels of ME and TE? If so, how?

2. What does the orange antique picture frame that appears after clicking "view in industry" signify?

3. Is there any way to investigate what will be needed for an invention process without having the actual BPC on hand?

TIA - db


1 Yes - go to a copy - show it in industry window.
In the top panel - on the left bottom there is a decryptor drop-down it is next to the thing that looks like pliers.
on the right side of the top panel it says outcome and has a drop down to select outcome

2. It signifies that you cannot start a job as all its requirements are not met - In skills

3. Yes and it is dumb.

- > Show info on blueprint through autolink or from market.
-> go to copy tab
-> Show info on resultant copy
-> Show in Industry on copy

-> It is very important to note that the Industry window will not switch between bpo information and bpc information of the same ship type when there is no actual item switch.

IE You cannot go directly from Megathron BPO info display to Megathron BPC info display within the Industry UI Unless you have the a specific example of the bpc (from contracts or specific link to copy)

I know that s a bit confusing. but try it out and you will see what im trying to explain.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#502 - 2014-07-31 22:39:36 UTC
Can you PLEASE provide a minimize button for the waste of space that is the top 75% of the industry UI, for activities that does not require that space? It's highly annoying having to scroll 4 items at a time, whether it is teams, jobs, facilities or whatever with all this white-space on top.. Thanks.
Jinn Aideron
#503 - 2014-07-31 22:52:52 UTC
There isn't really a place for this in TEST Server Forum at this time, so I'll leave one thought on current state of Sisi here:


3D output preview of industry UI is great and all, but the camera moving around the item on the same path every. single. time? 5th time it's redundant, 10th repetitive, 25th annoying, and after that it only serves to divert attention and induce nausea. Roll

Stealth deletes are bad.
Rapscallion Jones
Omnibus Solutions
#504 - 2014-08-01 05:06:19 UTC
Reprocessing Arrays/Compression Arrays. They are inside of the POS forcefield, so why do I have to be within 3000m of them to reprocess/compress the ore? This is counter to the buff a while back that allowed us to interact with all modules within the bubble.
Qmamoto Kansuke
Killing with pink power
Penguins with lasorz
#505 - 2014-08-01 05:10:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Qmamoto Kansuke
I say this for the 5th time since crius the general outcome is more work for everyone not less, I leave aside the new ui I guess you can't revert it but at the least take measure to reduce the workload per single character to keep up with production lines you need to increase production timers not decrease them.Industry and market forums are both filled with outcries of the massive screw up this has been.
Before crius we had to choose carefully what to build, now we can build faster and multiple things at the cost of increased management and ever dying profit.=BAD
The least you could is revert the old production times,invention can stay up like this, but 2days for ammo srs?When it was taking week.Open up the market and check the most selling products and then see that the majority are in freefall.At this rate we have to spend huge amount of time, for small profit that is dying everyday.This was not the goal of crius.You can still fix it but the window is getting shorter everyday.


TLDR:
Keep the current production times/rates=Market dies 2014, industrialists quit eve, less and less ppl trade moon goo, alliances start to suffer, subs go down in both hi and null, not the end of eve but smaller profits for you for sure.
Revert to old production rates or even have slower than pre-cruis build timers= Healthy market and happy industrialists.
Veinnail
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#506 - 2014-08-01 05:32:32 UTC
we were directed to this thread to express our feedback instead of bogging down the issues thread.


why oh why, did you increase the base materials on t2 builds as so?

From what people are quoting, they see a 30%-45% increase on the flat bill of materials, being components, blocks, minerals, and so on for the T2 builds. BPO and invention processes included.

The original announcements quoted certain waste presentation. This is far more than that. Producers of these goods are also facing the dynamic manufacturing index. For example, roughly 300 manufacture hours are involved with producing something like a Black Ops or Marauder. Meaning that not only is the market value going to spike based on the materials needed, but also the indexed fees associated with the production of said goods. The direct impact on producers who don't keep high stock lines will be that they are forced to keep a smaller stock line due to the cost of sustaining the same throughput as before the increase, or invest more to keep up the same throughput. Those producers who keep higher stock lines, will have, by now, pulled product and re-listed it at what they would estimate to be "the" price to cover sustained throughput.

Meanwhile, average joe joining fleet or arcading in his Assault Cruiser, is left footing the bill on CCP stimulated price hikes.

to what end?


To sell plex, I say.

The past 89 days of plex sold on the market (the forge) 255,100 PLEX.

average of 2,866/day with two peaks over 4,000/day.

CCP has undeniable motive to drive the value of EVERYTHING in the game up. All masked behind a likely intentional bad launch of the "industry revamp"

GG
Veinnail
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#507 - 2014-08-01 05:43:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Veinnail
It is worth saying that there is a good chance PLEX saved ccp and eve-online from dying at one point. If it is the only thing floating it now. That idea is concerning...

♥eve
Veinnail
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#508 - 2014-08-01 06:15:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Veinnail
or we can revisit this quote from Greyscale's Blog

Quote:
Additionally, the old Material Efficiency skill has been renamed to Advanced Industry, and gives a build time reduction of 1% per level. We are not totally happy with the reduction in skill value that’s happened here, and we are committing to revisiting this skill post-Crius to evaluate how to meet our overall goals here in a less dramatic fashion.

Obviously we need to ensure that pre-Crius blueprints still work post-Crius, so we will be altering the values on existing blueprints for the new system. The guiding goal with this translation is "no blueprint gets functionally worse" i.e. the materials needed for a single run should be the same or less after the transition. Do note that, because we are calculating percentage reductions on the job as a whole rather than per-run, there will be cases where multiple runs can realize hidden savings that weren't previously accessible.



Bolded and Underlined the important part that DID NOT HAPPEN.

I for one enjoy the plex sale conspiracy but I think we can all agree that this is a bit more plausible.

get hype
Veinnail
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#509 - 2014-08-01 06:22:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Veinnail
Instead, This happened to everything t2.

Quote:
Successful invention without decryptors now creates an ME-2%/TE-4% blueprint; material requirements for T2 items have been increased by 50% to balance this out as it means we’re no longer adding +50% materials due to negative ME, so that decryptor-less invention now requires 2% less materials than previously.


The base increase for all t2 by 50%, I mean really?
CCP Greyscale wrote:
- Removal of negative TE/ME probably requires an increase in T2 build costs to balance out component demand before and after

so, we lost our material reducing skill, AND base values went up by 50%


someone want to field this? if component prices drop a bit, more people fly t2, world burns, everyone is happy :P
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#510 - 2014-08-01 07:13:47 UTC
Cross-posting this from GD:

So, previously, the camera in the ship preview started at a default location (rotated up and to the left of looking directly at the nose of the ship) and could be moved around at will.

Post Crius, though, the camera now resets to a position directly in front of the previewed ship, then pans itself over to the original start location. This process, while pretty, takes roughly 1-1.5 seconds, and cannot be interrupted at all (mouse control doesn't exist until it finishes the animation). It also triggers every single time something changes in the preview windows. This is most apparent when trying to compare the visual look of T3 subsystems. Every time you click a new subsystem from the provided menu, the camera resets, making it annoyingly difficult to compare visuals (which can be important for flash-IDing T3s at a glance). If you want to see what I mean, load any T3 into the preview window and start swapping around the displayed subsystems.

Ok, I get that you wanted a pretty animation, but there are two serious things wrong with this: there's no way to turn it off, and there's no way to interrupt the animation. Forced camera controls should be limited to situations in which the camera no longer serves the prior purpose (ie. when going through stargates). There needs to be an off option for this.
Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
#511 - 2014-08-01 07:19:45 UTC
Daenika wrote:
Cross-posting this from GD:

So, previously, the camera in the ship preview started at a default location (rotated up and to the left of looking directly at the nose of the ship) and could be moved around at will.

Post Crius, though, the camera now resets to a position directly in front of the previewed ship, then pans itself over to the original start location. This process, while pretty, takes roughly 1-1.5 seconds, and cannot be interrupted at all (mouse control doesn't exist until it finishes the animation). It also triggers every single time something changes in the preview windows. This is most apparent when trying to compare the visual look of T3 subsystems. Every time you click a new subsystem from the provided menu, the camera resets, making it annoyingly difficult to compare visuals (which can be important for flash-IDing T3s at a glance). If you want to see what I mean, load any T3 into the preview window and start swapping around the displayed subsystems.

Ok, I get that you wanted a pretty animation, but there are two serious things wrong with this: there's no way to turn it off, and there's no way to interrupt the animation. Forced camera controls should be limited to situations in which the camera no longer serves the prior purpose (ie. when going through stargates). There needs to be an off option for this.


Confirming that this is a problem when you need to quickly determine the subsystems of target's T3 ship.

It looks cool, but it lowers the usability.
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#512 - 2014-08-01 10:27:56 UTC
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
Daenika wrote:
Cross-posting this from GD:

So, previously, the camera in the ship preview started at a default location (rotated up and to the left of looking directly at the nose of the ship) and could be moved around at will.

Post Crius, though, the camera now resets to a position directly in front of the previewed ship, then pans itself over to the original start location. This process, while pretty, takes roughly 1-1.5 seconds, and cannot be interrupted at all (mouse control doesn't exist until it finishes the animation). It also triggers every single time something changes in the preview windows. This is most apparent when trying to compare the visual look of T3 subsystems. Every time you click a new subsystem from the provided menu, the camera resets, making it annoyingly difficult to compare visuals (which can be important for flash-IDing T3s at a glance). If you want to see what I mean, load any T3 into the preview window and start swapping around the displayed subsystems.

Ok, I get that you wanted a pretty animation, but there are two serious things wrong with this: there's no way to turn it off, and there's no way to interrupt the animation. Forced camera controls should be limited to situations in which the camera no longer serves the prior purpose (ie. when going through stargates). There needs to be an off option for this.


Confirming that this is a problem when you need to quickly determine the subsystems of target's T3 ship.

It looks cool, but it lowers the usability.


CCP Optimal fixed this yesterday, it no longer animates the camera when swapping between subsystems. We will deploy the change next week.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
Deriah Book
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#513 - 2014-08-01 10:54:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Deriah Book
Vovan, Killer, and Kusum. Thank you for your help. Your answers have caused me to go back and look at SI again. I was going to blow it off until a time in the future when I was utterly bored and had nothing to do. After seeing what the UI is capable of I am quite pleased.

Two of my three mysteries were resolved by your help. The third was not because I did not phrase the question well. I had actually written the same post in more detail while I was working with the UI in game. The first post was actually formatted as feedback with the 3 questions included. It took me about 30 minutes to conjure and then when I clicked the post button... poof... * It was gone forever. I was so frustrated at that point I simply blurted out my questions and logged for the night.

However, given a fresh look at the UI my feedback has changed slightly. So, to partially reiterate:

I am an industrial noob. Have been for years. For the most part I build certain ships and rigs when I need them and send very few to market. A few months ago one of my corpies suggested I look into invention. I thought it sounded fun but was doing other stuff at the time. When I read the Crius notes I was very exited to try out the new UI.

So I opened this shiny new thing that just screams, "I am here to help you figure out all you need to know about what you can do with your blueprints!" 90 minutes later I was done with it. From the perspective of someone who has done very little in industry the answers to the questions that popped into my mind were not readily available. The interface gives the impression of being very intuitive in some ways, but in other ways creates more mystery than it solves.


Kusum Fawn wrote:
Deriah Book wrote:
I have three questions after 90 minutes of futzing with the SI UI and getting next to nothing done.

1. Can we in fact see predictions of the outcome of different levels of ME and TE? If so, how?

2. What does the orange antique picture frame that appears after clicking "view in industry" signify?

3. Is there any way to investigate what will be needed for an invention process without having the actual BPC on hand?

TIA - db


1 Yes - go to a copy - show it in industry window.
In the top panel - on the left bottom there is a decryptor drop-down it is next to the thing that looks like pliers.
on the right side of the top panel it says outcome and has a drop down to select outcome

2. It signifies that you cannot start a job as all its requirements are not met - In skills

3. Yes and it is dumb.

- > Show info on blueprint through autolink or from market.
-> go to copy tab
-> Show info on resultant copy
-> Show in Industry on copy

-> It is very important to note that the Industry window will not switch between bpo information and bpc information of the same ship type when there is no actual item switch.

IE You cannot go directly from Megathron BPO info display to Megathron BPC info display within the Industry UI Unless you have the a specific example of the bpc (from contracts or specific link to copy)

I know that s a bit confusing. but try it out and you will see what im trying to explain.


2. I see how obvious that is now. But when I was absorbed in trying to figure out how to see ME predictions it just confused me more.

3. Of course. How could I not have known that. I would just like to add a 4th step for clarification, in case someone else drops into this segment of the thread with the same question:

- > Show info on blueprint through autolink or from market.
-> go to copy tab
-> Show info on resultant copy
-> Close the industry window (as per your following important note)
-> Show in Industry on copy

-> It is very important to note that the Industry window will not switch between bpo information and bpc information of the same ship type when there is no actual item switch.

Unfortunately that same trick does not work to solve the dilemma of my first question. My first question was not actually about invention, but simply researching material efficiency. As a noob that's as far as I got before getting stuck. I just wanted to see if 8% was necessary over, say, 5%. I realize that we are talking about very simple math here, but I like to see the numbers after the math has been done for me. And since the info window does the math on material predictions of a researched blueprint, I kinda just assumed the fancy new industry window might be able to calculate that for me too.

That being said, I am still looking for that answer to question one:

1. When doing material research, is there a way to see predicted material demands whilst changing the research level?

So. Feedback.

(Wow. I didn't realize how long this post was getting... )
Deriah Book
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#514 - 2014-08-01 11:03:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Deriah Book
cont.

So. Feedback.

Thanks to the help of fellow players I did manage to get a BPC effigy to open in the SI window and am duly impressed. It actually does give me a lot of information, the information that I would hope to find in such a tool, about the process I would like to undertake. (Except for in the case of ME research which I used to go to EveMON for. Now, I have to figure it out on my own. Or do I?)

A few bullet points from a noob's perspective. (If all have been mentioned before I'm sorry. But I would rather spend my time playing in Eve than coming to the forum and reading 26 pages of stuff. That being said, I will probably read quite a bit more than that in the next hour.)

- With all that space in the research window, and the very obvious "You will end up with this" window to the right of the blue print, could we possible get an estimate of the change. Like we do when clicking on decryptors in the inventions window?

- "View in industry" should actually swap the BPO/BPCs in question. It would make the UI more intuitive if it did what most would guess it would do, but really wouldn't be necessary all the time if the UI itself showed more information about the process.

- BPCs should be linkable items. Sometimes a BPC is not available on the market, or folks like me have no available slots... you get the idea. Would be nice to "window shop" my goals for the future.

- BPC links that are created by dragging from BPC info windows into the notepad are displayed as BPOs when opened in the SI UI.


Overall I have to say I like it very much. The brokenness of it however could easily lead to people leaving it in frustration. I would have had kind players not responded to my questions.

My 0.2. Thanks.
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#515 - 2014-08-01 11:12:54 UTC
Being able to swap to a blueprint copy has been much requested, we will see what we can do to improve this.

Thanks for the rest of the feedback too.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
D4WN
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#516 - 2014-08-01 11:23:04 UTC
For all of you who carefully went through your spreadsheets to record all the changes in material requirements on many production items, look again. You need to do it all over again! There have been many changes in these requirements POST release of Cruis. T2 items have taken on yet another substantial increase in cost to produce. One change I noted that surely is a mistake -- the Megacyte requirement for the production of one Crane jumped from 0 to over 15,000 units. This is way out of line for the megacyte requirements for other ttransport ships.

I see nothing that is streamlined about these industry changes and I also fail to see the "logic" behind any of this!
Gainard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#517 - 2014-08-01 13:07:22 UTC
The mineral problem introduced in Crius

The Crius expansion made some vital changes that will affect HighSec mining in a bad way. Before the release of Crius trade of ore and minerals was well balanced. A lot of the ores and minerals mined in HighSec were shipped in bulk to Null- and LowSec, while Null- and LowSec ores and minerals are sent to HighSec and sold there to raise funds to buy the HighSec minerals and ores. Now this trade model is not required for NullSec corporations anymore. How do I come to this conclusion? Well check out the changes in minerals and ores.

The most obvious change is of course the 1,278 - 1,406 Mexallon a batch of Arkanor now contains, raising it from zero to the most valuable Mexallon source.
Then there are the additional 4 ores that now also contain Zydrine: Gneiss (60-65, NullSec only) Hedbergite (9-10, some LowSec) Hemorphite (8-9, some LowSec) and Jaspet (3, some LowSec).

Then there is the mineral content per ore unit. Most minerals per ore unit before Crius:
NullSec:
Isogen (Gneiss)
Megacite (Arkanor)
Morphite (Mercoxit)
Nocxium (Crokite)
Tritanium (Spodumain)
Zydrine (Crokite)

HighSec (at least in some areas)
Mexallon (Kernite)
Pyerite (Plagioclase)


After Crius:
NullSec:
Isogen (Gneiss)
Megacite (Arkanor)
Mexallon (Gneiss)
Morphite (Mercoxit)
Nocxium (Crokite)
Pyerite (Bistot)
Tritanium (Spodumain)
Zydrine (Crokite)

HighSec
none

Now all ores containing the most minerals per ore unit are in NullSec. Given the fact that CCP has promised that the number of mineral refined from ore will not drop (with perfect skills, best refining facilities and the 4% refining implant they are actually slightly increased) that can only mean NullSec has been given an increase of minerals to refine per ore unit.

Lets take a closer look at it. I would not have bat an eye if it was just the 1.6 times increase of Nocxium in Crokite. However, there are some slightly larger increases that I think tilt the scales way beyond reason towards NullSec. The most blatant increase is Bistot with Pyerite content raised from 170 - 187 to 16,572 to 18,230 per batch while halving the batch size.
That means a refiner with an effective 78% refinery efficiency will get 142.2 Pyerite from one unit of Monolitic Bistot instead of 0.94, a neat 152 fold increase.
Other winners are Crokite (nearly 124 times the amount of Tritanium and a meager 1.6x increase in Nocxium), Ochre (110x Tritanium), Spodumain (69x Pyerite and 24x Tritanium), Arkanor again (36x Tritanium) and Gneiss (23x Mexallon, 23x Tritanium and double the Isogen) - not too shabby, eh?

I am aware that the LowSec ores are also available in HighSec ore sites. However, they have rather small asteroids and are usually mined out very fast. Additionally the only significant changes are the 1.8 times increase of Pyerite in Jaspet and the 3-10 Zydrine (per batch) now available in HighSec through those sites. All other increases are directed towards NullSec and they are massive, as in 15,200% massive.

To anyone who thinks this won't have a profound impact on EVE's economy I have a shiny bridge to sell.

I predict the prices of Tritanium to plummet right through the bottom of the ocean, only to exit on the other side of the planet, closely followed by Pyerite. Zydrine and Mexallon will lose value too. Megacite and Morphite will rise as, with the increased availability of the other ores in NullSec, the production there is bound to increase, making those two more scarce. Also, the exchange of minerals and ores from NullSec to HighSec and vice versa will slow down if not all but die.

This will of course hurt production in HighSec. It will somewhat hurt skilled miners in highSec too, single players more than corp players, but the worst hit will be the new comers. Mining used to be a profession that allowed for moderate income with low skills. This will not be the case anymore once the HighSec ore prices start going down. Refining ores is out of the question for anyone but the best skilled players. This will make it that much harder for "young" players to earn the ISK to fund skill books, ships and equipment.

When was the last time you were flying a ship with an (useful) empty slot? Us older players tend to forget how hard it is to get going, not being able to jump from one stargate to the next in one go, being unable to fit a ship properly for lack of skills and funds, having a new ship blown up in missions or by HighSec pirates on top off being generally clueless of how this game works.

I do not believe the Crius expansion will drive a significant number of players into Low- or NullSec as seems to be the intention. Those that want to be in Low-/NullSec are already there. Us whiny HighSec'cers are not likely to follow. It is probably more likely that this expansion is driving more people away from EVE, than there are players moving into Low-/NullSec.

I am not going to leave over this expansion (besides the ore/mineral problem there is the changes in refining, skipping the standing requirements for POS’ and other issues that pisses people off) but I am worried what will happen when subscriber numbers dwindle. What on earth am I going to do with all the free time once EVE shuts down?

Man, I train for certain goals and then the related skills / modules / ships get nerfed. I hate to be addicted to EVE.
Vic Vorlon
Malevelon Roe Industries
Convocation of Empyreans
#518 - 2014-08-01 13:09:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Vic Vorlon
In the previous Industry UI I was told how much wastage of each ingredient there would be. The new UI doesn't show that...could you find a way to add that, perhaps to the tooltips? It's very useful for a T1 rig maker like myself to know that.

EDIT: Never mind, I figured out that the ME level is applied across the whole job, so if you do enough runs, you see that you are saving material.
Rapscallion Jones
Omnibus Solutions
#519 - 2014-08-01 14:23:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Rapscallion Jones
Most industrialists I've worked with who have a large number of BPOs manage them with containers. As such I truly think the industry panel needs some Inventory/Market functionality, something like this.

In a similar vein the lower portion of the indy panel needs the same treatment, allowing us to collapse cancelled, in progress, completed jobs. Also providing the above mentioned container functionality with collapsible rows.
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#520 - 2014-08-01 15:05:54 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
CCP Optimal fixed this yesterday, it no longer animates the camera when swapping between subsystems. We will deploy the change next week.


<3