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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#681 - 2014-07-31 17:07:25 UTC
The weapon system of a battle ship (Domi) is copy pasted on a high resist cruiser hull for added mobility, given additionnal bunuses (drone control range) to make the long range version more easy to use without fitting as many module modules. All of this for the cost of some EHP.

Hell all hacs using BS grade weapon would still leave them with much bigger tracking or explosion velocity/radius problems...
Chrissolyn
Gladdebacher's
#682 - 2014-07-31 17:08:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Chrissolyn
Bigger cargobay on some HAC's?

My deimos says "Thank you" :D
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#683 - 2014-07-31 17:15:44 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello

I was out of the office yesterday but I did get caught up here finally. I don't have a lot to add for the moment. We are still leaning towards more gradual changes for this particular pass but I'm going to get folks together once vacations are over and have a larger conversation about sentries and drone balance overall. I definitely agree that being destructible doesn't end up being an actual drawback for sentry drones in almost all situations. We could expose that weakness more by changing things like drone bay or drone HP but the August release is too close for that kind of change so I'll just get the conversation started and we'll see how things look for the following release.

I don't doubt that the Ishtar will still be strong, and we could definitely remove it from the meta by attacking the sentry use more directly, but we want to try and reach some middle ground before going that route.

One small addition - I'm going to even out the cargo capacity on HACs some in this release, the Zealot's very sad 260 cargo was very annoying.



Just keep bringing up ideas for the follow up releases. As you could see.. quite frequently the perception falls far from where the designer expected.


The zealot could get a little bit more help (like fitting wise sicen it is far inferior to the navy omen as a mobile long range boat)


I just hope someday a good and effective role for the tempest can be found as well.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kane Fenris
NWP
#684 - 2014-07-31 17:26:45 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?


there wre sooo much sugestions about the tempset in the bs revamp thread

and almost all of them better than this one!

to hbe usefull somewere the tempest needs a radical makeover OR something creative like Bc/cruiser warpspeed
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#685 - 2014-07-31 17:33:38 UTC
Bandwidth of Ishtar and vexor navy to 100
Bandwidth of heavy drones to 20.

You've reduced Ishtar dps by 20 % with sentries but keep its dps with heavies
Still viable to use either heavies or sentries
Vexor, prophecy, myrmidon all get improved dps projection due to their drone change load out (vexor/prophecy are now 3/1/1 heavy/med/light. Myrmidon can flight full 5 heavies. Stratios has the option for full flight of heavies.

Proteus drone configuration now viable as it could now fly a full flight of heavies.

It is not a small change, but it is a thorough one.

Yaay!!!!
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#686 - 2014-07-31 17:44:15 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello

I was out of the office yesterday but I did get caught up here finally. I don't have a lot to add for the moment. We are still leaning towards more gradual changes for this particular pass but I'm going to get folks together once vacations are over and have a larger conversation about sentries and drone balance overall. I definitely agree that being destructible doesn't end up being an actual drawback for sentry drones in almost all situations. We could expose that weakness more by changing things like drone bay or drone HP but the August release is too close for that kind of change so I'll just get the conversation started and we'll see how things look for the following release.

I don't doubt that the Ishtar will still be strong, and we could definitely remove it from the meta by attacking the sentry use more directly, but we want to try and reach some middle ground before going that route.

One small addition - I'm going to even out the cargo capacity on HACs some in this release, the Zealot's very sad 260 cargo was very annoying.



A point I would like to make. More than being destructable.. the real drawback is being FORGETTABLE. The fact tat is you need to make a tactical warp you lose them. That is far far more relevant than the drones possibility of being popped.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#687 - 2014-07-31 17:54:29 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello

I was out of the office yesterday but I did get caught up here finally. I don't have a lot to add for the moment. We are still leaning towards more gradual changes for this particular pass but I'm going to get folks together once vacations are over and have a larger conversation about sentries and drone balance overall. I definitely agree that being destructible doesn't end up being an actual drawback for sentry drones in almost all situations. We could expose that weakness more by changing things like drone bay or drone HP but the August release is too close for that kind of change so I'll just get the conversation started and we'll see how things look for the following release.

I don't doubt that the Ishtar will still be strong, and we could definitely remove it from the meta by attacking the sentry use more directly, but we want to try and reach some middle ground before going that route.

One small addition - I'm going to even out the cargo capacity on HACs some in this release, the Zealot's very sad 260 cargo was very annoying.



A point I would like to make. More than being destructable.. the real drawback is being FORGETTABLE. The fact tat is you need to make a tactical warp you lose them. That is far far more relevant than the drones possibility of being popped.


This is only valid in a situation where you cannot launch more than 1 flight of drones, ishtars can get up to 5 flights easily.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#688 - 2014-07-31 18:11:10 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello

I was out of the office yesterday but I did get caught up here finally. I don't have a lot to add for the moment. We are still leaning towards more gradual changes for this particular pass but I'm going to get folks together once vacations are over and have a larger conversation about sentries and drone balance overall. I definitely agree that being destructible doesn't end up being an actual drawback for sentry drones in almost all situations. We could expose that weakness more by changing things like drone bay or drone HP but the August release is too close for that kind of change so I'll just get the conversation started and we'll see how things look for the following release.

I don't doubt that the Ishtar will still be strong, and we could definitely remove it from the meta by attacking the sentry use more directly, but we want to try and reach some middle ground before going that route.

One small addition - I'm going to even out the cargo capacity on HACs some in this release, the Zealot's very sad 260 cargo was very annoying.



A point I would like to make. More than being destructable.. the real drawback is being FORGETTABLE. The fact tat is you need to make a tactical warp you lose them. That is far far more relevant than the drones possibility of being popped.


This is only valid in a situation where you cannot launch more than 1 flight of drones, ishtars can get up to 5 flights easily.



I am not saying it is ENOUGH of a drawback. Jsut pointign that forgetting is more common that beign destroyed.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
#689 - 2014-07-31 18:17:30 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Bandwidth of Ishtar and vexor navy to 100
Bandwidth of heavy drones to 20.

You've reduced Ishtar dps by 20 % with sentries but keep its dps with heavies
Still viable to use either heavies or sentries
Vexor, prophecy, myrmidon all get improved dps projection due to their drone change load out (vexor/prophecy are now 3/1/1 heavy/med/light. Myrmidon can flight full 5 heavies. Stratios has the option for full flight of heavies.

Proteus drone configuration now viable as it could now fly a full flight of heavies.

It is not a small change, but it is a thorough one.


Only problem I have with this is implications for carriers

Blue-Fire Best Fire
Odithia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#690 - 2014-07-31 18:19:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Odithia
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Bandwidth of Ishtar and vexor navy to 100

Just this would be enough.
Both ships would remain competitive with the other HAC and Navy Cruisers.

And bump the Prophecy to 100mbs to match the Myrmidon.

Battlecruiser level of damage for a Navy Cruiser or HAC is good enough.
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#691 - 2014-07-31 18:20:41 UTC
Aquila Sagitta wrote:

Only problem I have with this is implications for carriers

carriers should be able to field only fighters and bomber fighters
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
#692 - 2014-07-31 18:26:35 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
One small addition - I'm going to even out the cargo capacity on HACs some in this release, the Zealot's very sad 260 cargo was very annoying.
My low-roaming Vagabond would appreciate that Cool More room for loot and spare mods.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#693 - 2014-07-31 18:27:00 UTC
Sara Tosa wrote:
Aquila Sagitta wrote:

Only problem I have with this is implications for carriers

carriers should be able to field only fighters and bomber fighters



The last developer that announced exaclty that change was the subject of the most intense shitstorm this forum have ever seen.... several years ago...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Meandering Milieu
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#694 - 2014-07-31 18:33:54 UTC
Odithia wrote:


And bump the Prophecy to 100mbs to match the Myrmidon.



That is the entire flavor of Amarr vs Gal in drones. Amarr get less bandwidth and more drone bay space, where gal get more bandwidth and less drone bay space.

You may as well say that Prophecy needs to drop the resist bonus and get armor rep, or myrm drop armor rep and get resists.

Cookie-cutterism is bad m'kay.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#695 - 2014-07-31 18:34:09 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello

I was out of the office yesterday but I did get caught up here finally. I don't have a lot to add for the moment. We are still leaning towards more gradual changes for this particular pass but I'm going to get folks together once vacations are over and have a larger conversation about sentries and drone balance overall. I definitely agree that being destructible doesn't end up being an actual drawback for sentry drones in almost all situations. We could expose that weakness more by changing things like drone bay or drone HP but the August release is too close for that kind of change so I'll just get the conversation started and we'll see how things look for the following release.

I don't doubt that the Ishtar will still be strong, and we could definitely remove it from the meta by attacking the sentry use more directly, but we want to try and reach some middle ground before going that route.

One small addition - I'm going to even out the cargo capacity on HACs some in this release, the Zealot's very sad 260 cargo was very annoying.

During that conversation, please take 2 seconds to remind everyone how much Eagle sucks.


Oh god.
Alec16
Never Not AFK
#696 - 2014-07-31 18:35:06 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello

I was out of the office yesterday but I did get caught up here finally. I don't have a lot to add for the moment. We are still leaning towards more gradual changes for this particular pass but I'm going to get folks together once vacations are over and have a larger conversation about sentries and drone balance overall. I definitely agree that being destructible doesn't end up being an actual drawback for sentry drones in almost all situations. We could expose that weakness more by changing things like drone bay or drone HP but the August release is too close for that kind of change so I'll just get the conversation started and we'll see how things look for the following release.

I don't doubt that the Ishtar will still be strong, and we could definitely remove it from the meta by attacking the sentry use more directly, but we want to try and reach some middle ground before going that route.

One small addition - I'm going to even out the cargo capacity on HACs some in this release, the Zealot's very sad 260 cargo was very annoying.


How about you say something about the sacrilege.
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#697 - 2014-07-31 18:38:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Sara Tosa
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Sara Tosa wrote:
Aquila Sagitta wrote:

Only problem I have with this is implications for carriers

carriers should be able to field only fighters and bomber fighters



The last developer that announced exaclty that change was the subject of the most intense shitstorm this forum have ever seen.... several years ago...

prevedible that every cap pilot would feel butthurt, still a capital ship with frigate and cruiser tracking weapons, can field twice the normal number, a lot of slots for bonus giving modules and an unlimited drone bay make ishtars look tame
afkboss
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#698 - 2014-07-31 18:49:10 UTC
I have waited so long for a HAC balance pass so something can finally be done to fix the sacrilege and it doesn't even get a ******* mention. Even worse a ship that is blatantly overpowered barely gets touched.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#699 - 2014-07-31 18:56:05 UTC
afkboss wrote:
I have waited so long for a HAC balance pass so something can finally be done to fix the sacrilege and it doesn't even get a ******* mention. Even worse a ship that is blatantly overpowered barely gets touched.



Funny I like my sacriledge. It is not on the level of the deimos and ishtar but it is ok.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
nikar galvren
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#700 - 2014-07-31 19:07:41 UTC  |  Edited by: nikar galvren
afkboss wrote:
I have waited so long for a HAC balance pass so something can finally be done to fix the sacrilege and it doesn't even get a ******* mention. Even worse a ship that is blatantly overpowered barely gets touched.

I remember many many people clamoring for an extra low or higher damage for the Sac prior to the last HAC balancing pass, and I also remember that the Devs shut it down for the purposes of :versatility: for :reasons:.

I still think that the Sac could use another low slot, or an enhanced damage bonus to make up for the relative lack of options in fitting an armor tank with a weapon system that has literally NO midslot weapon upgrade. I love the utility high slot, and yes, it does have :versatility:, but it's (still) slow as balls, and barely breaks 510 missile DPS with 2x BCU Rage HAMs, and even then, only out to 25km. Any other missile loadout drops off precipitously. The full flight of med drones helps on this, but only until the NPC AI shreds them, or until they get smartbombed off the field.

Compare to the Ishtar, using 5x Garde II and 2x DDA: 621 DPS with 41.2 km optimal - and falloff after that. Considering that the Ishtar has some flexibility options for its tank, it can even sport that DPS and MORE TANK than the Sac. Never mind the instant-hit factor of sentries, or the speed advantage, or a full second faster align time, or the possibility to fit the highs in any desired configuration for :versatility:.

Actually, you can compare it to most of the other HACs. The Sac does need some love. Godly cap regen only goes so far.