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Refunding skill points in industry
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Nikolai Lachance
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2014-07-31 05:24:14 UTC
As already mentioned, you already have benefitted from having the skills. If you play this game expecting gameplay systems never to change, that's your problem. Industry gameplay systems have been improved. The fact that you're too lazy to figure out how to adapt to the changes to take advantage of the improvements (or that you feel so entitled that you think you should never have to adapt to changes) is not CCP's fault.

The meta in this game changes all the time. We all eventually have skill points invested in skills that, due to some balance change or change in interest or circumstance, are not longer as useful to us as they once were. We don't all get do-overs every time game balance changes in a way that forces us to adapt. It's not like you have a maximum skill cap and these points are in the way.

If it bothers you that much, sell the character to someone who wants those skills and use the isk to buy one that is more suited to your interests.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2014-07-31 06:19:04 UTC
Yes entire industries including salvaging corps, research corps and small to medium industrial corps making a few cruisers and some modules a week have been wiped out by the change. Sux to be you if that was how you played EVE,

But no you cannot have a refund. Bad precedent.
Rob Kashuken
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#23 - 2014-07-31 06:33:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Rob Kashuken
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Skill points were only refunded in the case of skills being removed completely..


When can I expect my refund for Drone Avionics V? It is functionally removed, can't use the units that it requires, and can't re-train it.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2014-07-31 06:47:26 UTC
By your arguement CCP should give me back a copy of every item I ever sold or lost every time they are rebalanced. and thats not happening
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#25 - 2014-07-31 07:20:14 UTC
OP. Get over it or quit. Those are your two choices, and either are perfectly fine. Just quit the whining.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Riyria Twinpeaks
Perkone
Caldari State
#26 - 2014-07-31 07:49:40 UTC
This seems to be the same as saying "I want a skill point refund for my skills in flying ship XYZ, because after the patch ABC is better."

Btw, as someone who doesn't do asteroid mining, I am curious:
Why is mining not worth it anymore? I was under the impression that the refining changes reduced the mineral amount coming from refining mission loot, while in case of mined ore there was a compensating change for that.
This would mean, if everything else stayed the same, that the total supply of minerals went down, while mining still nets about the same amount of minerals. This seems a change in favor of mining.

So .. what else changed to negate that? Or am I misunderstanding something?
Kaea Astridsson
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#27 - 2014-07-31 08:21:29 UTC
Oh shush you with your reason.

OP: I think doing the reprocessing in a POS is better than what a station can offer. And if you feel reprocessing yourselves tanks the value too much, just compress that gravel sell that instead.

Get on Comms, or die typing.
flakeys
Doomheim
#28 - 2014-07-31 08:30:38 UTC
Digital Messiah wrote:
Watching SWG die the same fate and knowing the people who did only play for irl funds. I can see EVE heading down the same path.

.



Oooohhh no you didn't just compare CCP's game changes every now and then to the NGE did you ?


Tell me you didn't do that .... Shocked

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Ton'Ka Katsu
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2014-07-31 08:57:57 UTC
so this patch did what code was trying to do? break the miners?

also guys without miners no minerals come in, then nothing gets built, then we can no pvp. do we really want the miners to quit?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#30 - 2014-07-31 09:07:34 UTC
Digital Messiah wrote:
Seeing as the changes to mining and industry are essentially completely game changing numbers wise. Why do we not have the option to refund the skill points invested in them. It is one thing to not do your research and train skills, at least that is avoidable. But when CCP takes the game in a new direction altering that aspect of the game. It isn't exactly foreseeable nor always desirable. With the new changes my isk an hour from mining have gone down tremendously. The time I put in to have what was perfect refining are gone. It is now more profitable with level 4 in all reprocessing ores and refine eff 5 to simply sell the ore even at a station with 0% tax.

Why should you get your SP back when you still have full use of all the abilities they bring? There's exactly one skill that has seen any real kind of devaluation in Crius and it's not even one you mention.

The time you put into your skills is not gone. Saying otherwise is somewhere between wilful ignorance and blatant idiocy. You also never had the skills for “perfect refining” — only enough (in some cases) to reduce waste to 0 under favourable circumstances. If the time you spent one these non-perfect skills is gone, why is your character sheet still full of non-perfect skills?

Moreover, if you're making less money from industry after Crius than you did before, you're doing something horribly wrong, and these ignorant and untrue statements gives a couple of hints of where the problem lies. Oh, and if you've found something more profitable already, why not do that? Hell, why not expand on that and start providing a related good that the market really wants?

Quote:
Null sec has finally won the war on mining in high sec
What war was that?

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
The null sec cartel's completely control CCP, and Eve.
Do you have anything to support this notion?

Quote:
Their well-documented goal is to destroy high sec
Ooh! Well-documented, you say? So you have something to support this notion?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#31 - 2014-07-31 09:14:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:
This seems to be the same as saying "I want a skill point refund for my skills in flying ship XYZ, because after the patch ABC is better."
It is. The only difference is that ABC was better all along and nothing has really changed between it and XYZ — he's just a little late to the party when it comes to figuring this out. P

Quote:
Btw, as someone who doesn't do asteroid mining, I am curious:
Why is mining not worth it anymore? I was under the impression that the refining changes reduced the mineral amount coming from refining mission loot, while in case of mined ore there was a compensating change for that.
This would mean, if everything else stayed the same, that the total supply of minerals went down, while mining still nets about the same amount of minerals. This seems a change in favor of mining.

So .. what else changed to negate that? Or am I misunderstanding something?

Nah. All of what you say is correct; all of what the OP says is not. Your “misunderstanding” comes from the OP not being entirely honest about his capabilities. If you have perfect refining skills, you get the same amount of minerals out of the ore as you always did (in fact, you can get more now if you're willing to put some extra effort in). The OP just doesn't have perfect refining skills in spite of trying to claim them as such.
Doomsdale Little
Doom and Gloom Corp
#32 - 2014-07-31 10:50:39 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
The null sec cartel's completely control CCP, and Eve.
Their well-documented goal is to destroy high sec, of which mining was (pre-Crius), still a marginally a profitable occupation, if you did not mind the cartel funded griefers like CODE.

Now, it is garbage, like most other things in high sec. (BTW, level 4's and Incursions are targeted, since they are the only semi-profitable things left in high sec left).

So why the shock?

Much of the player base has already recognized this (note the ACU and PCU), and demonstrated their opinion with their wallets.
Naturally, the propagandists will be out in full force to outshout and even censor this truth in minutes. But even after they get this post removed, the truth will remain: the amount of people willing to put up with this is dwindling, and CCP is in deep trouble, whether they recognize it or not.


This guy gets it.

Sky is falling, damage estimate to follow. Proof that CCP is out to get me personally.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#33 - 2014-07-31 11:21:15 UTC
Doomsdale Little wrote:
This guy gets it.
The problem is that he gets it wrong.
Riyria Twinpeaks
Perkone
Caldari State
#34 - 2014-07-31 11:28:24 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:
[...]

So .. what else changed to negate that? Or am I misunderstanding something?

Nah. All of what you say is correct; all of what the OP says is not. Your “misunderstanding” comes from the OP not being entirely honest about his capabilities. If you have perfect refining skills, you get the same amount of minerals out of the ore as you always did (in fact, you can get more now if you're willing to put some extra effort in). The OP just doesn't have perfect refining skills in spite of trying to claim them as such.


Thanks for clearing this up.
So as I understand it, it is now harder, as in more skill points needed (and maybe implants) to achieve the best possible refining rate.
In my opinion that makes those skills more useful, even.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#35 - 2014-07-31 11:38:25 UTC
Digital Messiah wrote:
I do not have the time to commit to running around null sec fighting for space. Nor do I like that play style in eve. I did my time back in 06 - 09 experiencing that portion of the game. CCP has effectively changed the system to much and done so by replacing skills to be less effective than before. In the past when ever this happened with any other portion of the game it was either a necessary balance change or skill points were refunded. Why not now? Especially considered the market has taken years to stabilize to where it was at pre cruis.


you know not all of null is sov or is null not an option because you cant really afk mine?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2014-07-31 11:47:05 UTC
Must say I made a lot of money out of reprocessing implants for a while after Crius.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#37 - 2014-07-31 11:49:58 UTC
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:
Btw, as someone who doesn't do asteroid mining, I am curious:
Why is mining not worth it anymore? I was under the impression that the refining changes reduced the mineral amount coming from refining mission loot, while in case of mined ore there was a compensating change for that.
This would mean, if everything else stayed the same, that the total supply of minerals went down, while mining still nets about the same amount of minerals. This seems a change in favor of mining.

So .. what else changed to negate that? Or am I misunderstanding something?
Nope, you're right there more or less. To make it even better, miners don;t even need to refine anymore. Compressed ore sells at a higher price than it ever would under the old system, so all you need is an offline tower and a compression array to turn on once in a while.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#38 - 2014-07-31 11:53:11 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
mining was (pre-Crius), still a marginally a profitable occupation, if you did not mind the cartel funded griefers like CODE.

Now, it is garbage, like most other things in high sec.
Dinsdale. Does it not seem perculir to you that you say this, yet highsec mining is now more profitable than it was pre-Critus? Seriously, go do the math. It's way up.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Xylem Viliana
homeless bum
#39 - 2014-07-31 11:54:20 UTC
you guys keep making me link this with this kind of complaining nonconstructive moaning

HTFU

Now please post something more constructive so I can link something different next time.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#40 - 2014-07-31 12:03:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:
[...]

So .. what else changed to negate that? Or am I misunderstanding something?

Nah. All of what you say is correct; all of what the OP says is not. Your “misunderstanding” comes from the OP not being entirely honest about his capabilities. If you have perfect refining skills, you get the same amount of minerals out of the ore as you always did (in fact, you can get more now if you're willing to put some extra effort in). The OP just doesn't have perfect refining skills in spite of trying to claim them as such.


Thanks for clearing this up.
So as I understand it, it is now harder, as in more skill points needed (and maybe implants) to achieve the best possible refining rate.
In my opinion that makes those skills more useful, even.



Yes.

Prior to Crius, in Hisec, at a 50% base station (i.e. most of them), you could get 100% yield with the following skills:

Refining - L5
Refinery Efficency - L3
[Ore] Processing - L4

Now, you need the following

Refining 5
Refinery Efficiency 5 (NOTE -- Was renamed ... but like my N-Type Adaptive Nano Membranes, I'm still gonna call it that)
[Ore] Processing 5
Cybernetics 5 (For the 4% Refining implant)

Looking at a dead-new rookie (EVE Mon "Create Character File" option), and the hisec ores (Veld, Scord, Plag, Omber, Kernite, Pyrox)

OLD skills = 18 days (well, 17 and change)
NEW skills = 89 days (88 and change)

This is ignoring the fact that you can easily put +3s in, which shaves off 11 days, 14 hours, 15 minutes (of which, about 1 hour 45 minutes is Cybernetics 1-3 ... which are prereqs for the +3s anyway).

Difference -- 60 to 70 days to be "perfect" now. And it's not really like miners are going to be torn between "train mining skills" and "train something else" (because they don't tank in the first place ...)


Edit -- now, this is obviously ignoring the fact that they can just throw up a small POS and compress the ore and sell it that way (because it's on the rise --> there's no more mineral compression via modules).

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia