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The cloak detection deployable.

First post
Author
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#1 - 2014-07-23 00:04:10 UTC
Requires null and/or wormhole stuff to make.

One time deployable, total cost to build circa.. 10 mil? 20 mil? About 20m3. Lasts for 30 minutes, 2 minute set up time. Total ehp about 3000 split 500/500/2000. Moderately easy to scan.

Range: 24km, 30km, 36km.

This module should be created to work in conjunction with other deployables *because* right now we have ways to hide (or deceive) but no ways to detect. Consider this deployable like a depth charge. You drop it and it 'pings' a very small area for a time. The ranges I specifically selected because those are point ranges for 1. unbonused points, 2. interceptor/linked points and 3. specialist ship points.

While it's important to create risk for people consuming our fine games relatively easy pve content, it's also important to create risk for the pvpers who prey on them. This module is really about as benign as you can get. If you deploy the cheapest version then anyone with a faction point 25km or higher can grab you, while someone using the most expensive pinger is going to need lachesis/arazu/proteus points to hold them down. In this manner it also increases the risks for the hunter as failure to bring the right point or enough points (in the case of warpstabs) will mean the targets get away. Coordination to tackle a wary pve-er will be increased.

This module is perfect for nullsec, wormholes and FW in particular large complexes.

I'd like this thread to be taken a bit more seriously as it's not aimed at 'afk cloakers' it's aimed at increasing the options available in cat&mouse scenarios the same way that d-scan prohibitors and cyno blockers do.

Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2014-07-23 00:08:38 UTC
IB4 flame
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#3 - 2014-07-23 00:44:33 UTC
Cloakers take a risk every time they move their ship or uncloak it. A very big risk, since a covert ops ship is about as useful in a fight as a pool noodle.

If I wanted to seriously camp your system for some kills I wouldn't do it with my name in local. I'd just log-off camp you with a more appropriate cyno lighting tackler and use API data to monitor your habits, then drop on you at my coalition's convenience.

Cloakers in local are about as dangerous as a ball of furry kittens to any wary pilot, let alone a pilot in their blue space. So unless you can definitively prove that there is a legitimate threat of being beaten to death with a sack full of kittens every time you undock, I assure you there will be little motivation to agree with any suggestion put forth to counter cloaking.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.

Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#4 - 2014-07-23 01:38:35 UTC
I surely hope you jest. Your choice to meta-game and use alts is something that is a societal problem not a game mechanics problem. Catching (or avoiding) for example a cloaking cyno legion is a more appropriate comparison than 'covert ops' ships only as that definition is very broad and tangentially includes every frigate, cruiser and black ops that can equip that cloak module (or one like it).

Quote:
If I wanted to seriously camp your system for some kills I wouldn't do it with my name in local. I'd just log-off camp you with a more appropriate cyno lighting tackler and use API data to monitor your habits, then drop on you at my coalition's convenience.


and as you so eloquently put it "cloakers are about as dangerous as a ball of furry kittens". Yeah, because being hotdropped at *your* convenience presents such a small threat.

It's not about being beaten to death every time you undock, that's an accepted part of life in EVE and is supposed to be a potential risk anywhere in the game - the point was not to defeat AFK cloakers which I specifically said in my OP it was to present a limited use tool for people to use in order to not just defend themselves but also give the initiative back to proactive pvpers who might want to go shark hunting.

Infact your post so completely bad I think you didn't read my OP at all. If someone is willing to risk the right ship to attack me then I wouldn't have a good chance of survival on principle. And you're not going to catch someone in an off-grid safe while cloaked anyway so I don't see your point? AFK cloaking has no solution. This is not an AFK cloaking tool.

This is a tool for tactically decloaking hostiles inside of point range so as I said the initiative can be stolen back. Nothing ruins a good hot drop like getting your cyno toon dunked before your titan bridge is up.
Meandering Milieu
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2014-07-23 02:47:45 UTC
Honestly the nerf needed is not to cloaks. I hate cloaky campers, but have learned to live around them.

No, the problem isn't the cloaks, as we have seen said several times. Cloaky ships on their own are often silly in comparison to even PvE ships.

The problem isn't the cloaky ships, it is the cyno they carry. While you might very well kill the cloaky, doing it before the cyno pops and you are tackled by tons of other ships is a bit trickier. People wouldn't be afraid of that solo cloaker if he didn't possibly -always- have a 10-20 man group behind him. Power projection has long been considered a problem in nullsec, both in the ability to move entire fleets across the map quickly, or the ability for a small gang in most regions to be able to instantly appear anywhere in that region.

It isn't that they are cloaked. It isn't that they are there 24/7. It is that you cannot know when they are active, and who is behind them. Undocking to rat or move goods becomes a gamble you don't know the odds on. Instead of addressing something like cloaking, which isn't really the problem, you should address what makes cloaky camping a pain: The ability of an enemy fleet to land on you near immediately with no way for you to evaluate the risk.

Risk/reward works, but part of that equation is knowing the risk you are taking. Undocking to rat with 2 cloaked neuts in system isn't the risk that keeps people docked. It is two neuts in system with 10+ guys waiting on a titan/Blops in NPC space.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#6 - 2014-07-23 02:56:59 UTC
Are you suggesting adding a cooldown timer on cynos after cloaking and decloaking?
Rayzilla Zaraki
Yin Jian Enterprises
#7 - 2014-07-23 03:14:44 UTC
Will they ever learn?

/semistealthcloakycamper thread

Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues.

Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#8 - 2014-07-23 03:16:15 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
-snip-


Hi, Mr. Seremshur! I'd like to take a moment to discuss with you the very real threat to the continued and long life of our most beloved game EVE Online. This threat is known as At The Keyboard Uncloaked Ganking(ATK Uncloaked for short). For over a decade now pilots in the New Eden star cluster have been terrorized and held hostage by prolific use of uncloaked gank boats that ruin the fun of cloaked players and their gameplay.

I implore you to ask your friends and comrades about this deplorable state of affairs and reach out to your CCP representative and tell them to say no to kowtowing and buffing the uncloaked monopoly on EVE's gameplay.


Sincerely,
Kaerakh from Surprisingly Deep Hole.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-07-23 03:28:50 UTC
If someone gets close enough to be detected/de-cloaked by this module, you're dead already. I like the idea but it doesn't really add anything to gameplay apart from a 'Haha you're dead' notification.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#10 - 2014-07-23 03:29:51 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Snip.


Log-off camping requires exactly 0 cloaks and precisely 1 fast warping tackler that can carry a cyno and not get blapped.

I have in total: 0 alts, one account, and no coalition.

This is not my gameplay style, I just know how to do it because knowledge is a useful thing.

50% of the benefit of a cloak is not to sneak up on a target that you can kill, but to sneak away from a target you can't lying in wait, Surviving against the odds is part of PvP and your suggestion would eliminate 100% of that functionality. Blockade runners, covert ops frigates, and Force Recons rely on cloaks almost exclusively for survivability. Unless you also propose a significant buff to those ships to give them their claws back in situations where they don't have a cyno, I wouldn't suggest changing them just to fit your desires for that one scenario in the dozens of roles those ships are used for. Nerf the cloak so covert ops ships can't get away and you necessarily have to buff them so they can fight. Enjoy getting ganked by nothing but cloaked solo campers for the next year until everyone begs CCP to "nerf" cloaks back to the way they were, UNLESS you fill your cargo hold with these, because cloaked ships will suddenly become very popular after a good buffing.

The fact that it's a deployable, that it's timed, and that it has a range means nothing. It's an offensive module designed to be a perfect counter to a defensive module in the most desirable situations - gate camps, WH ratting (whose income this will decrease not at all and make the ratters many orders of magnitude safer) and when you know you're being hunted because of a neutral in local - and that means that it's efficacy is greatly increased. And yes, it is about AFK cloaking. If you have a cloaky neutral in local and are too scared to go about your business all you have to do to get back to your ratting is drop one of these in an anomaly with an interceptor and come back in 2 minutes with your ratting BS. Nothing simpler. Until you want to completely re-work cloaking mechanics and the ships that rely on them, suggestions for adding any sort of counter to a cloak are a pretty bad idea, and poorly thought out if there is no consideration for the consequences down the chain of events.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.

Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#11 - 2014-07-23 03:32:15 UTC
Hi mr dude guy

Try finding more than one occasion on my kb where I was a victim of afk cloaking. There is one. In 5 years of playing.

Wouldn't you too like to decloak haulers and t3s that land at your gates? Would you like to make that bubbled wormhole entrance a bit more effective? Would you enjoy the propsect of actually catching those fw plex bots? Decloaking stealth bombers off your station?

Why spam cans and borderline exploit when you can deploy one or two pingers and accomplish the same?

Did you just land on a gate at a plex and think someone is following you? Are you trying to catch explorers inside of data and relic sites? Does defensively decloaking some nasty falcon before he gets in point range excite you? Then the pinger is your friend.

Don't want your pos being scouted during set up? Drop a pinger at 100 from a celestial and catch that pesky spy. Mwd/cloak trick giving you grief? Pinger can help.

Whether used offensively or defencively the pinger can help even the scales on the information war that cloaking dominates.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2014-07-23 03:35:40 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Hi mr dude guy

Try finding more than one occasion on my kb where I was a victim of afk cloaking. There is one. In 5 years of playing.

Wouldn't you too like to decloak haulers and t3s that land at your gates? Would you like to make that bubbled wormhole entrance a bit more effective? Would you enjoy the propsect of actually catching those fw plex bots? Decloaking stealth bombers off your station?

Why spam cans and borderline exploit when you can deploy one or two pingers and accomplish the same?

Did you just land on a gate at a plex and think someone is following you? Are you trying to catch explorers inside of data and relic sites? Does defensively decloaking some nasty falcon before he gets in point range excite you? Then the pinger is your friend.

Don't want your pos being scouted during set up? Drop a pinger at 100 from a celestial and catch that pesky spy. Mwd/cloak trick giving you grief? Pinger can help.

Whether used offensively or defencively the pinger can help even the scales on the information war that cloaking dominates.


What is the counter to the pinger?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#13 - 2014-07-23 03:36:35 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Hi mr dude guy

Try finding more than one occasion on my kb where I was a victim of afk cloaking. There is one. In 5 years of playing.

Wouldn't you too like to decloak haulers and t3s that land at your gates? Would you like to make that bubbled wormhole entrance a bit more effective? Would you enjoy the propsect of actually catching those fw plex bots? Decloaking stealth bombers off your station?

Why spam cans and borderline exploit when you can deploy one or two pingers and accomplish the same?

Did you just land on a gate at a plex and think someone is following you? Are you trying to catch explorers inside of data and relic sites? Does defensively decloaking some nasty falcon before he gets in point range excite you? Then the pinger is your friend.

Don't want your pos being scouted during set up? Drop a pinger at 100 from a celestial and catch that pesky spy. Mwd/cloak trick giving you grief? Pinger can help.

Whether used offensively or defencively the pinger can help even the scales on the information war that cloaking dominates.


Thank you for confirming everything I just said. Your only consideration is for your style of gameplay and with no perspective of any external effects beyond how it benefits you.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.

Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#14 - 2014-07-23 03:39:11 UTC
Blowing it up. Hitting the target before it onlines. Running out its radius before it onlines. Not warping in to one. Dscanning. Probing. Fitting for combat. Fitting for defense. Fitting for alignment speed.

Lots of things really. More than what ive mentioned to be sure. If it lasted only 5 minutes would you still find it so imbalanced?
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#15 - 2014-07-23 03:48:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Blowing it up. Hitting the target before it onlines. Running out its radius before it onlines. Not warping in to one. Dscanning. Probing. Fitting for combat. Fitting for defense. Fitting for alignment speed.

Lots of things really. More than what ive mentioned to be sure. If it lasted only 5 minutes would you still find it so imbalanced?


If I jump through a gate in my Buzzard & find 50 guys in interceptors with an onlined pinger on the other side, what can I do to have a chance of surviving?

If I am ratting & a guy gets decloaked by my pinger who then drops a bubble & a cyno, what can I do to have a chance of sirviving the encounter?

Your idea, which I like by the way, would give people a massive edge over Covert Ops cloakers which are actually designed to be able to infiltrate space (on the flip side, it really does nothing for the guy making money as previously suggested). Also there is massive potential for abuse, which is why I like your idea.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#16 - 2014-07-23 03:56:58 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Hi mr dude guy

Try finding more than one occasion on my kb where I was a victim of afk cloaking. There is one. In 5 years of playing.

Wouldn't you too like to decloak haulers and t3s that land at your gates? Would you like to make that bubbled wormhole entrance a bit more effective? Would you enjoy the propsect of actually catching those fw plex bots? Decloaking stealth bombers off your station?

Why spam cans and borderline exploit when you can deploy one or two pingers and accomplish the same?

Did you just land on a gate at a plex and think someone is following you? Are you trying to catch explorers inside of data and relic sites? Does defensively decloaking some nasty falcon before he gets in point range excite you? Then the pinger is your friend.

Don't want your pos being scouted during set up? Drop a pinger at 100 from a celestial and catch that pesky spy. Mwd/cloak trick giving you grief? Pinger can help.

Whether used offensively or defencively the pinger can help even the scales on the information war that cloaking dominates.


I guess my post was over your head. I'm sorry I didn't communicate it effectively.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#17 - 2014-07-23 03:58:22 UTC
I'm not convinced a buzzard or any ship should be surviving a 50 man interceptor gate camp. Nevermind they too could drop a bubble. If the guy gets decloaked bubbles and cynos etc I hope you put the pinger far enough away. In an anom? I guess that depends on whether you think you'd have survived anyway (you were probably dead anyway).

Does infiltration of hostile space mean complete immunity to interception by normal means or does it mean say not being a ****** and getting caught in some kind of transient and temporary defence. Speaking strictly of null in any scenario where you are bubbled and surrounded by cans its no different to a pinger really is it.

Wormholes are much the same. In lowsec I can travel in a covops frigate with near complete impunity. Only very specialised setups can catch a covops as it stands. Will you be a cool dude and drop a heap of pingers at great expense?
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#18 - 2014-07-23 04:03:29 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
I'm not convinced a buzzard or any ship should be surviving a 50 man interceptor gate camp. Nevermind they too could drop a bubble. If the guy gets decloaked bubbles and cynos etc I hope you put the pinger far enough away. In an anom? I guess that depends on whether you think you'd have survived anyway (you were probably dead anyway).

Does infiltration of hostile space mean complete immunity to interception by normal means or does it mean say not being a ****** and getting caught in some kind of transient and temporary defence. Speaking strictly of null in any scenario where you are bubbled and surrounded by cans its no different to a pinger really is it.

Wormholes are much the same. In lowsec I can travel in a covops frigate with near complete impunity. Only very specialised setups can catch a covops as it stands. Will you be a cool dude and drop a heap of pingers at great expense?


Or we could avoid potentially hazardous to balance concepts by not implementing them. I like that idea. Can we do my idea instead?
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#19 - 2014-07-23 04:05:58 UTC
The balance seen in as yet to be rebalanced covops/recons/T3s and black ops? Excuse me? Try again.
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#20 - 2014-07-23 04:16:20 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
I'm not convinced a buzzard or any ship should be surviving a 50 man interceptor gate camp. Nevermind they too could drop a bubble. If the guy gets decloaked bubbles and cynos etc I hope you put the pinger far enough away. In an anom? I guess that depends on whether you think you'd have survived anyway (you were probably dead anyway).

Does infiltration of hostile space mean complete immunity to interception by normal means or does it mean say not being a ****** and getting caught in some kind of transient and temporary defence. Speaking strictly of null in any scenario where you are bubbled and surrounded by cans its no different to a pinger really is it.

Wormholes are much the same. In lowsec I can travel in a covops frigate with near complete impunity. Only very specialised setups can catch a covops as it stands. Will you be a cool dude and drop a heap of pingers at great expense?


How about a 10 man gate camp?

A 5 man gate camp?

Things can get pretty sketchy with a good chance of getting caught while trying to get a Cov-ops out of a bubble with 2 or 3 competent people watching the gate. You can't even call that a gate camp anymore.

All of this talk about bubbles.

Nothing mentioning that Interdictors and HIC's can't fit cov-ops cloaks (and if you're using a prototype, god bless your dear little heart) nor that a mobile warp disruptor takes twice as long to online as this suggested pinger.

4 minutes to gank a buzzard (who isn't going to be doing any of this) and GTFO? No problem. A Force Recon? Sure, he didn't stand a chance in 1v1 anyways, any T1 cruiser with a competent pilot can whittle him down in half that time, loot the wreck and warp to safety. Oh I'm sorry, were you ratting? Good thing you placed that large pinger so that the edge of it would be at the warp-in and placed yourself on the far side and kept your general direction towards the safe, that'll give you a good 70km buffer to get home.

Yeah, 72km... Radii and Diameter are two different things, and you defined a radius.

Nothing about this idea is good. It just takes and drives one style of gameplay into the ground in favor of another, while giving everybody else an easy exploit. Thanks for pointing out that other methods used to achieve similar results are borderline exploits by the way. Surely a deployable that is even more effective with a single right click is balanced, right?

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.

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