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EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
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Faction Ship Questions
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Trajanus Caesar
Doomheim
#1 - 2014-07-19 04:05:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Trajanus Caesar
I have been asking in-game about this and the census is that if you fly a faction ship you will be primary in fleets and blobbed if solo.

1. Why, aren't T2 and T3 ships more expensive and powerful?
2. If your ship gets destroyed its value is determined by its location's market value of said item(s) at the time of destruction, right?
A. If so, then if you, for example, buy a blueprint Navy Issue Apocalypse for 250k LP, 0 ISK, and 1 x Draclira Merlonne's Tag (you farmed it) from the LP store and it gets destroyed (no weapons, modules, etc. just the ship). AND the ship/blueprint isn't available in the regional/local market. Isn't its value 0 ISK?
B. If not, then could you explain how a ship's value is determined upon its destruction as well as how people make ISK from killmails (you get a percentage of the ship's total value deposited to your wallet?)

"Veni, vidi, vici" -Julius Caesar

"I came, I saw, I conquered."
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#2 - 2014-07-19 04:53:27 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Trajanus Caesar wrote:
1. Why, aren't T2 and T3 ships more expensive and powerful?

"Diminishing returns" is a major theme in EVE. You see it in price-to-performance in terms of ships... you see in time-to-stats with skills.

It is basically what keeps "low grade" ships relevant and prevents people who are richer and/or played for longer have an absolute advantage over everyone else. This means that newbies can actually make a difference in the grand scheme of things.

And balancing power with price doesn't really work. Several ships were balanced by that metric and it did not stop players from producing them en mass (see: Supercarriers and Titans).

Trajanus Caesar wrote:
2. If your ship gets destroyed its value is determined by its location's market value of said item(s) at the time of destruction, right?

Kind of. The value you see on killmails and killboards is the averaged price from the rest of the game. More local prices vary wildly.

Trajanus Caesar wrote:
A. If so, then if you, for example, buy a blueprint Navy Issue Apocalypse for 250k LP, 0 ISK, and 1 x Draclira Merlonne's Tag (you farmed it) from the LP store and it gets destroyed (no weapons, modules, etc. just the ship). AND the ship/blueprint isn't available in the regional/local market. Isn't its value 0 ISK?
B. If not, then could you explain how a ship's value is determined upon its destruction as well as how people make ISK from killmails (you get a percentage of the ship's total value deposited to your wallet?)

To you, perhaps an item that you farmed/grinded your way into earning will have no ISK value. But to others it will. Everything has a market value which is decided by 3 main factors...

Time: In your case, how much time did you spend getting that LP? How about the tag? How much liquid ISK could you have earned doing other things instead of working for the LP/tag? The more time you spend earning something, the more you (and others like you) will value it.

Difficulty/Risk: How difficult was it to get that amount of LP? How much risk were you in? Something that is simple to get can be risky. And something that isn't that risky can be difficult to get. Something can shoot up in value if it difficult and RISKY to get (like officer mods).

Supply and Demand: Other players may have different ideas from whatever you are thinking. They may perceive something as being "worthless" and/or not worth the price being asked for... demand will drop and so will prices.
On the other hand, people may think something is "awesome" and prices rise due to increased demand.
And yet... if too many people begin selling too much of something then supply overcomes demand and prices fall.

edit: one thing I should add... some of these factors may contradict one another. One says the price of something should be high because it took a lot of time to get... but because there was no risk in getting it the value will remain low. Or something will be in high supply but prices remain high because it requires a lot of resources that take a great deal of time and/or difficulty to earn.


To directly answer your question about insurance though (the money deposited in your wallet)... that is based on the market mineral prices of a ship hull, not the market value of the hull itself.
This is why you get crap insurance for Faction, T2, and T3 ships. The mineral value is only part of what makes them so expensive.

And yes... this is intentional. Insurance is designed to soften the loss for cheaper ships that younger, poorer players often use (so they can get back to doing what they want to do faster). People who typically buy expensive ships are generally not young or poor so they do not get the "safety net."

How did you Veterans start?
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#3 - 2014-07-19 04:55:16 UTC
1) Nope, faction ships in the same ship class cost more usually.
2) It's based on the universal averages

B) You get 20% of the value of the ship if they have a bounty on their head up to the bounty's value. If they have 100k on their head and you kill a 50 million ship, you still only get 100k.

The Drake is a Lie
Trajanus Caesar
Doomheim
#4 - 2014-07-19 05:19:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Trajanus Caesar
ShahFluffers wrote:
Trajanus Caesar wrote:
1. Why, aren't T2 and T3 ships more expensive and powerful?

"Diminishing returns" is a major theme in EVE. You see it in price-to-performance in terms of ships... you see in time-to-stats with skills.

It is basically what keeps "low grade" ships relevant and prevents people who are richer and/or played for longer have an absolute advantage over everyone else. This means that newbies can actually make a difference in the grand scheme of things.

And balancing power with price doesn't really work. Several ships were balanced by that metric and it did not stop players from producing them en mass (see: Supercarriers and Titans).

Trajanus Caesar wrote:
2. If your ship gets destroyed its value is determined by its location's market value of said item(s) at the time of destruction, right?

Kind of. The value you see on killmails and killboards is the averaged price from the rest of the game. More local prices vary wildly.

Trajanus Caesar wrote:
A. If so, then if you, for example, buy a blueprint Navy Issue Apocalypse for 250k LP, 0 ISK, and 1 x Draclira Merlonne's Tag (you farmed it) from the LP store and it gets destroyed (no weapons, modules, etc. just the ship). AND the ship/blueprint isn't available in the regional/local market. Isn't its value 0 ISK?
B. If not, then could you explain how a ship's value is determined upon its destruction as well as how people make ISK from killmails (you get a percentage of the ship's total value deposited to your wallet?)

To you, perhaps an item that you farmed/grinded your way into earning will have no ISK value. But to others it will. Everything has a market value which is decided by 3 main factors...

Time: In your case, how much time did you spend getting that LP? How about the tag? How much liquid ISK could you have earned doing other things instead of working for the LP/tag? The more time you spend earning something, the more you (and others like you) will value it.

Difficulty/Risk: How difficult was it to get that amount of LP? How much risk were you in? Something that is simple to get can be risky. And something that isn't that risky can be difficult to get. Something can shoot up in value if it difficult and RISKY to get (like officer mods).

Supply and Demand: Other players may have different ideas from whatever you are thinking. They may perceive something as being "worthless" and/or not worth the price being asked for... demand will drop and so will prices.
On the other hand, people may think something is "awesome" and prices rise due to increased demand.
And yet... if too many people begin selling too much of something then supply overcomes demand and prices fall.

edit: one thing I should add... some of these factors may contradict one another. One says the price of something should be high because it took a lot of time to get... but because there was no risk in getting it the value will remain low. Or something will be in high supply but prices remain high because it requires a lot of resources that take a great deal of time and/or difficulty to earn.


To directly answer your question about insurance though (the money deposited in your wallet)... that is based on the market mineral prices of a ship hull, not the market value of the hull itself.
This is why you get crap insurance for Faction, T2, and T3 ships. The mineral value is only part of what makes them so expensive.

And yes... this is intentional. Insurance is designed to soften the loss for cheaper ships that younger, poorer players often use (so they can get back to doing what they want to do faster). People who typically buy expensive ships are generally not young or poor so they do not get the "safety net."


I see. Thanks for the info

"Veni, vidi, vici" -Julius Caesar

"I came, I saw, I conquered."
Trajanus Caesar
Doomheim
#5 - 2014-07-19 05:28:17 UTC
Xercodo wrote:
1) Nope, faction ships in the same ship class cost more usually.
2) It's based on the universal averages

B) You get 20% of the value of the ship if they have a bounty on their head up to the bounty's value. If they have 100k on their head and you kill a 50 million ship, you still only get 100k.


Thanks for B. So if you want to make ISK by killing people (other than piracy and mercontracts) they have to have a bounty.

"Veni, vidi, vici" -Julius Caesar

"I came, I saw, I conquered."
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#6 - 2014-07-19 05:36:45 UTC
Trajanus Caesar wrote:
Xercodo wrote:
1) Nope, faction ships in the same ship class cost more usually.
2) It's based on the universal averages

B) You get 20% of the value of the ship if they have a bounty on their head up to the bounty's value. If they have 100k on their head and you kill a 50 million ship, you still only get 100k.


Thanks for B. So if you want to make ISK by killing people (other than piracy and mercontracts) they have to have a bounty.

Well... you can also sell the weapons and modules that you scoop from their wrecks... but this is only profitable when you kill more than you die. Blink

How did you Veterans start?
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2014-07-19 06:14:07 UTC
Trajanus Caesar wrote:
Xercodo wrote:
1) Nope, faction ships in the same ship class cost more usually.
2) It's based on the universal averages

B) You get 20% of the value of the ship if they have a bounty on their head up to the bounty's value. If they have 100k on their head and you kill a 50 million ship, you still only get 100k.


Thanks for B. So if you want to make ISK by killing people (other than piracy and mercontracts) they have to have a bounty.

Yes. Typically combat is a net loss unless you plan carefully to profit from it.

Also bounties are not very useful and are largely ignored in EVE. It's pretty common to put bounties on your friends as a sign of affection or respect, because people generally aren't going to change their decision to attack you based on your bounty. There's no change in aggression rules for pilots with bounties, so CONCORD will still respond to defend them in high sec. People that already intended to suicide gank you will just see the bounty as an added bonus, and generally no one else is going to go out of their way to pop you just because of the bounty, unless you are flying an absurdly expensive ship.

Out in low/null bounties are a nice bonus, but the greater profit usually comes from looting their wreck.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#8 - 2014-07-19 08:29:11 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
unless you are flying an absurdly expensive ship.

I'll also say that killing an absurdly expensive ship is motivation enough in and of itself, so again the bounty would be a tertiary motivation.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-07-19 08:45:19 UTC
Stuff you farmed to build a ship is NOT free / has no value.

Just because you farmed all of it and used it to build a ship doesn't mean the ship is free,

You could have sold the items on the market for ISK
You could have bought the items on the market with ISK.

Anything in EVE has a value, sometimes the killboards etc. are horribly wrong about their value but that is usually only with "special edition" ships etc.

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Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-07-19 15:38:24 UTC
FCs call primaries based on:

1) threat level and expected tank*, if the fight is 'even' (yes I'm oversimplifying a bit here)

2) ship value and expected tank* if they're pretty sure they'll lose the fight and just want to kill as much ISK value as possible before whelping their own fleet

3) just ship value if they expect to win but aren't sure they'll be able to point every enemy ship on field before they bail (warp out)


Faction ships cost lots of ISK, sometimes even more than t2 ships of the same class (size), and are less tanky than t2. Especially because of lower dmg resists, meaning that in a fleet with logi ('healer' ships) it will be harder for the logis to keep them alive under fire.


Finally, people prefer to kill high value ships whenever possible because it's better for their killboard and because they know they're 'hurting' the enemy more. It has nothing to do with bounties usually, though bounties can be a nice bonus.



*Ship defenses; how hard it will be and/or how much time it will take to kill the ship

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