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Blueprint research in Crius
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Kale Freeman
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-07-18 22:18:20 UTC


Looking through the numbers regarding ranks and time to research. It looks like researching a battleship blueprint to ME-10 used to take 41 days. Any new industrialist looking to start building up a set of blueprints will need to spend 280 days research his battleship blueprint to reach the same ME-10 level.

This is a serious freebie (240 days of research) being gifted to the established industrialists! That is just for one battleship blueprint. Surely this isn't the intention? Am I missing something in the numbers which significantly reduces the disadvantage the new industrialist is facing?

As a person without a stockpile of well researched BPO, this looks like this is a clever move by the established industrialists to give themselves a almost unassailable advantage. I would guess that most of the feedback to CCP has been from established industrialists and most of the "I'm not an industrialist yet, but I'm going to look at it after this expansion" people aren't shouting very loudly and are probably completely unaware of what is happening to them.

I don't want to go all tinfoil hat, but unless I'm missing something significant I see these numbers providing the established guys with many hundreds and possibly thousands of days of research for free.
Thur Barbek
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2014-07-18 23:19:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Thur Barbek
Your 50/15 battleship bpo that took year+ to get is now a 10/10. 50 ME is no where close to perfect and took a lot longer to get than 280 days. New players will get perfect ME in 280 days. So in this case the older player loses a time investment.

Another fun fact: if you have a 6/0 dread bpo (perfect ME) it will become not perfect ME post patch.


But anyway, you are assuming people hoard 10 ME bpo's, when in reality most bpo's are WAY higher me than 10. And thus a large majority of people are actually losing out on time invested. (and in most cases the pos fuel costs for that time).
Rapscallion Jones
Omnibus Solutions
#3 - 2014-07-18 23:19:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Rapscallion Jones
Dude, I've got all 12 BS at ME100. You know what I get in return, -10. That's eight months of research per BPO gone in a puff of smoke. Don't get me started on my freighter and carrier sets. What was once perfect is no more. We're all getting screwed in this one, it's just a matter of how.
Hakan MacTrew
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#4 - 2014-07-19 00:53:09 UTC
I don't see how anyone is getting screwed. On the test server I noticed that ALL research and manufacturing jobs done in Highsec stations are limited to 30 day maximum run times, meaning that it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a BS BPO past about ME 7 / TE 14 without putting it in a POS and making it vulnerable. (I havent checked Lowsec or Null yet so they may or may not be exceptions to that rule.) Not to mention that I also checked the job cost and I hope that the global figures will change because ME 10 was coming in at over 1.4b isk in fees.

You will still have a 'perfect' BPO. All it means is that new insutrialists will be able to achieve the same goal you did in just over 9 months but with a hefty price tag.

How about sparing a thought for the poor sods that will need to spend over 15 YEARS, (and that inculdes a 0.35 ME/TE modifier for using a Hyasyoda lab,) working on Titan BPO's to get them perfect.

At the end of the day, Crius is fixing a lot of problems with Industry and while not everyone is going to be happy about all of the changes, they are better for the community in general, if not all individuals. (And I really love the new UI.)

On a related note, I am LOVING the fact that the changes to invention and production mean that the gap between inventing and T2 BPOs is going to be much smaller. Those T2 BPO products are going to require 50% more materials to make while inventions will use about the same. Not only that, but decrypters and meta inputs will have a much greater effect on the finished BPC.

So while I am sure you are unimpressed with the percieved collateral loss you feel you will sustain, imagine how those T2 BPO owners who spent tens if not hundreds of billions of isk on their pride and joys who now must feel like they have been kicked in the crown jewels by mule.


I will say though that I am concerned about some of the knock on effects I expect from the patch. Given that ME 10 T1 builds will have the same material costs as ME 0 builds do now after the balance pass I imagine that the value of minerals will hike pretty quickly. While the demand for minerals will increase, I doubt the supply will respond in kind, thus I expect, (what I estimate to be,) a 15% rise in demand will create something like a 22% increase in cost. This of course will eventually filter back up to product sale prices and that will accelerate the inflation of pretty much everything.

Maybe I am over thinking it, and I am certain that I have missed some crucial variables, but hey, I'm no economist, I just create and blow up pixelated spaceships...

Friends
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2014-07-19 01:18:25 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
I don't see how anyone is getting screwed. On the test server I noticed that ALL research and manufacturing jobs done in Highsec stations are limited to 30 day maximum run times, meaning that it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a BS BPO past about ME 7 / TE 14 without putting it in a POS and making it vulnerable.

Research is supposed to act like a 30-day long skill queue; you can't add more work once you hit 30 days. So you should be able to research from 7 to 8, as long as you aren't also trying to research to 9 in that same run. And you can research from 8 to 9, as long as you aren't also trying to research to 10. Otherwise, it would be impossible to get some BPOs to 10 post Crius, as there is no way to reduce the job time of a Titan, for example, to go from 9 to 10 ME in under 30 days.

I was testing to make sure this was actually the case, but mirror.
Hakan MacTrew
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#6 - 2014-07-19 01:34:46 UTC
Komi Toran wrote:
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
I don't see how anyone is getting screwed. On the test server I noticed that ALL research and manufacturing jobs done in Highsec stations are limited to 30 day maximum run times, meaning that it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a BS BPO past about ME 7 / TE 14 without putting it in a POS and making it vulnerable.

Research is supposed to act like a 30-day long skill queue; you can't add more work once you hit 30 days. So you should be able to research from 7 to 8, as long as you aren't also trying to research to 9 in that same run. And you can research from 8 to 9, as long as you aren't also trying to research to 10. Otherwise, it would be impossible to get some BPOs to 10 post Crius, as there is no way to reduce the job time of a Titan, for example, to go from 9 to 10 ME in under 30 days.

I was testing to make sure this was actually the case, but mirror.


Ah, I thought it may have been a method CCP would use to get BPO's out of stations and into vulnerable POS's.

Cheers for the heads up.

Friends
Qoi
Exert Force
#7 - 2014-07-19 01:38:10 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:

Those T2 BPO products are going to require 50% more materials to make while inventions will use about the same. Not only that, but decrypters and meta inputs will have a much greater effect on the finished BPC.


I agree with most of what you say, but your maths is fairly wrong, so allow me to make a few corrections.
T2 BPOs will require 45% more materials than before, since the base cost is multiplied by 1.5 but then the ME will take 10% off that.
Also decryptors and meta inputs will have a much smaller effect on the finished BPC, since in the old system, the material usage modifier could vary from 170% (ME -6) to 110% (ME -1), but now it will only vary between 100% and 95%, a much smaller variation. (Table http://bp.kiwi.frubar.net/me-changes/ )

Hakan MacTrew wrote:

Given that ME 10 T1 builds will have the same material costs as ME 0 builds do now after the balance pass


This is plain wrong, the new base material requirements are old base / 0.9, so for a perfect blueprint you are having the same costs as previously with a perfectly researched ME, because x/0.9 - 10% is x again :-) You forget that the old system was adding stuff to the base costs, while the new system is removing stuff.

http://eve-industry.org
Hakan MacTrew
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-07-19 02:12:21 UTC
Qoi wrote:
Hakan MacTrew wrote:

Those T2 BPO products are going to require 50% more materials to make while inventions will use about the same. Not only that, but decrypters and meta inputs will have a much greater effect on the finished BPC.


I agree with most of what you say, but your maths is fairly wrong, so allow me to make a few corrections.
T2 BPOs will require 45% more materials than before, since the base cost is multiplied by 1.5 but then the ME will take 10% off that.
Also decryptors and meta inputs will have a much smaller effect on the finished BPC, since in the old system, the material usage modifier could vary from 170% (ME -6) to 110% (ME -1), but now it will only vary between 100% and 95%, a much smaller variation. (Table http://bp.kiwi.frubar.net/me-changes/ )

Hakan MacTrew wrote:

Given that ME 10 T1 builds will have the same material costs as ME 0 builds do now after the balance pass


This is plain wrong, the new base material requirements are old base / 0.9, so for a perfect blueprint you are having the same costs as previously with a perfectly researched ME, because x/0.9 - 10% is x again :-) You forget that the old system was adding stuff to the base costs, while the new system is removing stuff.

This is why I shouldn't do maths at 2:00am after a late shift...

I realise now that I forgot the base 10% wastage stat from current BPOs.

cheers

Friends