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CCP is thinking about removing the IGB

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cyboman
My Wormhole Hurts
#161 - 2014-07-10 12:26:59 UTC
I think the IGB sucks. Alt-Tab if you need to. Play the game or watch a movie. If EVE bores you that much then quit... Can I request all of your stuff?
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#162 - 2014-07-10 12:41:46 UTC
cyboman wrote:
I think the IGB sucks. Alt-Tab if you need to. Play the game or watch a movie. If EVE bores you that much then quit... Can I request all of your stuff?

I don't think you quite understand the current situation.
Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#163 - 2014-07-10 16:04:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Durzel
If an advertiser said "how can we get people to look away from what we're trying to get them to see?" you'd think they were mad, but removing the IGB is not so far removed from that.

If a game drops you to the desktop, or forces you to go there yourself, then you've lost them. They could quite easily get distracted by other stuff there, other games. Eve doesn't need less reasons to play.

Maybe there's a bit of hyperboly there, but as long as it's possible for people to paste links - and God knows they will in times of boredom and waiting, etc - then the game should be able to deal with that. The game really ought to provide everything one might need whilst playing it without having to look elsewhere at all.

The IGB should continue to exist in some form, and it would be fantastic if it was upgraded to support more modern technologies - but at the very least it should persist as is, for all the reasons already mentioned. Not everyone plays in windowed mode.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#164 - 2014-07-10 16:06:29 UTC
Durzel wrote:


If a game drops you to the desktop, or forces you to go there yourself, then you've lost them. They could quite easily get distracted by other stuff there, other games. Eve doesn't need less reasons to play.


Yeah I find myself constantly accidently playing World of Tanks when I alt-tab to check a signature in wormhol.es.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
roigon
TURN LEFT
#165 - 2014-07-10 17:12:47 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
we should be able to have you press a button on web site and then via CREST it tells the server which tells your client to open some window. Maybe a tad shower but again not only is the format and technology better for developers but the number of uses and possibilities is far greater than the IGB.


Dear mr Socks4

When can I expect to push a button in pyfa that will tell crest to buy the ship + modules + ammo in Jita on my jita alt, then create a contract with red frog to ship it to my staging system, then when I boot up pyfa again and it detects the contract has been finished it creates a contract to black frog to jump it to my low-sec home, then when that is finished tell crust to let my main character fit the ship and occupy it, then have pyfa present me with a notification that my ship is ready?

Something like 3 months sound do-able?
Alina en Chasteaux
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#166 - 2014-07-10 17:28:57 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
It depends. If they can get SSO working, great, but alot (and I mean ALOT) of people play in fullscreen.

I'd honestly would kinda hate having to have an ipad next to me to monitor what I'm doing.. I would also like it too.

There are alot of people that use it, and removing it completely would hurt more people than it helped.

Update it, do SSO also, never worry about updating browser again.

SSO will only be viable if you can either sign-in once for all your accounts / characters.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#167 - 2014-07-10 18:03:55 UTC  |  Edited by: BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Oh wow, this is a pretty amazing thread. Mostly filled with a lot of misunderstanding so let me see if I can clear that up before we get to the Jita riots. Before continuing though, please be advised this post comes to you from a phone and is therefore likely to be filled with even more terribleness than my usual posts. I may try and proof read this though.

So, first and foremost the IGB is not being removed anytime soon and defiantly not without a lot of discussion with the CSM and more importantly you guys. When I say not anytime soon I mean there is no plan to remove it, there is not even a plan to look into how much effort it would be to it. Removing the IGB is as best I can tell years away from happening.

So that probably doesn't help this that much as all i have done is confirm we CCP want to remove the IGB and that it is years away from happening. That doesn't help the fact that many of you use the IGB and feel losing the IGB would hurt your gameplay.

So let me try something else. We don't want to remove the IGB until we have CREST up to the point of replacing it. The most common uses of the IGB are things like DOTLAN's radar or wormhole mapping software. Both those really just need your location information, which we can supply in the an even better way via CREST. Better CREST wouldn't require you to have the IGB open. Log into some website, give it permission to see your location, and even when you are not on that web site it know where you are. This means you get your whole corp to sign up and then only those looking at the mail need to open the browser. This is better in so many ways.

The other big thing the IGB offers is the ability to open links in the client. I don't think we have looked to deep into it, but we should be able to have you press a button on web site and then via CREST it tells the server which tells your client to open some window. Maybe a tad shower but again not only is the format and technology better for developers but the number of uses and possibilities is far greater than the IGB.

I could go on listing so many other things but the bottom line is this: CREST is a far newer technology and more importantly one we can maintain far easier than the IGB. We would like to remove the IGB but we will not do so until CREST, or even maybe something else, gets us feature equal to the IGB.

Really the only question and problem with moving from the IGB to CREST is the fact that you can browse the IGB from the client versus alt-tabbing. From our, or mine anyways, understanding most of you guys have multiple monitors and that's not an issue. There are also other applications that will overlay your current web browser with the game. Things like Overwolf I think it's called. The benefits from us doing things through CREST and relying on you guys to use an existing browser are immense. We get to focus on making cool things instead of trying to maintain a customized browser in the client. Not sure you guys realize just how much work there is in maintaining something as complex as a browser and how much of a security problem for everyone this is.

Anyways, nothing is happening anytime soon, when it does it will be because we, CCP and you the players and the CSM, have had a good long discussion about it, and only once something else is in place to replace it.

I hope that elevates your concerns for now. Let's get back to blowing up spaceships and building an awesome universe together and enjoying the sun... Which I might be the only one doing :P

Thanks for the clarification. I'm glad that you are looking to improve third party app support, but some of us (even those with multiple monitors) don't like having to alt tab to use other programs while gaming. I can appreciate that managing javascript security vulnerabilities can be difficult, but the igb, notepad, calculator, and (formerly) jukebox are some of the little features that really separate the user experience in eve from other online games.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#168 - 2014-07-10 18:08:44 UTC
CCCP is thinking about removing the KGB

Is what I keep reading dammit

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Enta Ozuwara
State War Academy
Caldari State
#169 - 2014-07-10 23:04:48 UTC
Oh that's fun. Finally there's some reaction to this. Didn't expect anybody to follow up on this, the CSM seemed pretty dismissve when I asked this. Long story short I send word to the security guy a year ago, now heard after this particular employee leaving CCP that he did agree with me on the IGB as a severe security risk but his hands were bound by upper management.

Bascially someone puts some effort into this, all EVE players can get hacked by clicking a link ingame (that could be disguised as a contract or killmail or whatever)
Jack Tronic
borkedLabs
#170 - 2014-07-10 23:16:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Tronic
CCP FoxFour wrote:

So let me try something else. We don't want to remove the IGB until we have CREST up to the point of replacing it. The most common uses of the IGB are things like DOTLAN's radar or wormhole mapping software. Both those really just need your location information, which we can supply in the an even better way via CREST. Better CREST wouldn't require you to have the IGB open. Log into some website, give it permission to see your location, and even when you are not on that web site it know where you are. This means you get your whole corp to sign up and then only those looking at the mail need to open the browser. This is better in so many ways.



I do not believe you will allow ~1.5k simulatenous requests from a single IP to CREST every second. Because I can tell you that that's the typical load the siggy's dedicated server manages on a weekend.

But here's the whole problem, you now need two monitors to effectively see what you could previously do with just one.
Heck, if I'm already using two monitors with a client on each, where the heck do you expect me to display the browser at the same time if its not inside the client? Do you want to go and change how EVE renders so its always in the background?
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#171 - 2014-07-10 23:39:22 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Val'Dore wrote:
When you say random bits of UI, what are you talking about?

Are you trying to turn this into a nerf local thread?


No, I've given up on CCP seeing that particular light. Just like WTZ and other bad ideas left there to make things easier for lazy people.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
xartin
International Speciality Machines
#172 - 2014-07-11 01:37:10 UTC  |  Edited by: xartin
The IGB should have been fed to wolverines years ago given how outdated it is and the gaping security threat it poses to every eve subscriber.

Chrome version 3 is nothing to laugh at when your a software publisher shipping insecure software to millions of users. CCP should be reported to some internet security oversight authority for doing this for the past 5 years.

It's the responsibility of software publishers to update and maintain software they publish even if it's from 3rd party sources (3rd party provided code repositories) such as chrome and chromium.

The version of chrome shipped with eve is vulnerable to remote exploits that have been widely published in news media and every vulnerability and known exploit on chrome's bug tracker afterwards.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/blog/2012/mar/08/pwn2own-chrome-hacked
Quote:
The user is tricked into visiting a specially crafted web page hosting the exploit which will execute various payloads to ultimately download the Calculator from a remote location and launch it outside the sandbox (at Medium integrity level).


Sad thing is doing this to every eve user would be trivial if someone with malicious intent popularized a malicious website within the eve community. Said theoretical individual likely wouldn't be remotely installing calc.exe to eve subscribers pc's.

Also by the admission of a previous Security Analyst employee of CCP the management of CCP has repeatedly refused to invest development time into fixing the insecure software shipped with eve online. I also commend this person for speaking up and having the strong ethics ccp's management apparently lacks to feel this is of any critical importance.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/27g99h/a_tad_funny_and_a_bit_embarassing_this_ingame/ci14tp5
Quote:
Hi, I'm the security analyst in the picture.

I don't work for CCP anymore. But I welcome you to laugh and cry. I too cried, when despite repeatedly pushing the various people to get this fixed, to find that nobody cared. Hence asking for a PoC, as to be able to demonstrate the actual risk besides a DoS. That was the only condition on which I was given any leverage to convince somebody to put this on a team to fix.

While I appreciate you trying to be funny about whether or not I'm able to comprehend security advisories, don't be silly. It shouldn't take you more than a few seconds looking up the various vulnerability lists to see that I'm more than familiar with them.


CCP i love you guys but there's certain level of irresponsibility that extends beyond your own doorstep that stands to potentially put a LOT of people's personal computers at risk and this has qualified for far too long. If your naive enough to think it hasn't already happened your also unfortunately incorrect.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/27g99h/a_tad_funny_and_a_bit_embarassing_this_ingame/ci0vqcj
Quote:
Seriously, I'm pretty sure both my computer and my wife's computer got ****** over because of this ****. Every-single time we try to open the in-game browser we get re-directed. I have to wait for this **** to stop in order to move out into WH space again.
Stu Pendisdick
#173 - 2014-07-11 02:19:51 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Anyways, nothing is happening anytime soon, when it does it will be because we, CCP and you the players and the CSM, have had a good long discussion about it


Discussion.

Read that as "We don't give a merry mother f**k what 'you, the players' have to say about it, we'll do as we please and you'll just have to live with it."

No need to sugar coat it.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#174 - 2014-07-11 04:59:37 UTC
Jack Tronic wrote:

But here's the whole problem, you now need two monitors to effectively see what you could previously do with just one.
Heck, if I'm already using two monitors with a client on each, where the heck do you expect me to display the browser at the same time if its not inside the client? Do you want to go and change how EVE renders so its always in the background?


This! Maybe the leet types on the CSM all have multi-display setups but, I seriously doubt that to be the case for the majority of the player base. I have neither the desk space nor the inclination to purchase a second display just to play Eve. The IGB, like the Jukebox you unceremoniously axed, is a functional convenience feature that many people like myself use on a daily basis. Adding more output options to CREST won't allow me to quickly and easily view web links without having to leave the game. We already have to rely on an out of game solution to avoid the monotonous Eve soundtrack. How many more convenience features are CCP planning to dump?

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#175 - 2014-07-11 05:16:27 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
This! Maybe the leet types on the CSM all have multi-display setups but, I seriously doubt that to be the case for the majority of the player base. I have neither the desk space nor the inclination to purchase a second display just to play Eve.
Do you have a phone?

Quote:
We already have to rely on an out of game solution to avoid the monotonous Eve soundtrack.
So what you're saying is that the removal of the jukebox didn't really change anything and that their reasoning for dumping it was pretty much spot on.
Erica Dusette
Division 13
#176 - 2014-07-11 05:32:34 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Help! Someone busted the brakes on this thing.

Should have come to a complete stop withing 3 posts of FoxFour's explanation. Then again, I think GD never had brakes installed in the first place.

Mr Epeen Cool

The best part of this thread (and pretty much one the greatest Dev posts I'd ever seen on here) was CCP FoxFour's reply to a comment by Winthorp on page 4, before it was deleted along with numerous posts quoting it. But I can confirm FoxFour did win the internets.

I WAS THERE. Shocked

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate ツ Full-Time Supermodel

▷ worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕ ▷ вσss
Hrald
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#177 - 2014-07-11 06:10:06 UTC
The IGB is chrome 3. CHROME 3. Either needs to be updated or removed. CCP will probably go for removal since that's easier.
Dieter Rams
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#178 - 2014-07-11 14:26:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Dieter Rams
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Really the only question and problem with moving from the IGB to CREST is the fact that you can browse the IGB from the client versus alt-tabbing. From our, or mine anyways, understanding most of you guys have multiple monitors and that's not an issue. There are also other applications that will overlay your current web browser with the game. Things like Overwolf I think it's called.


Or.... you could make the map useful in EVE and also add a wormhole mapping system à la Siggy. Why does CCP have this fetish to leave features out for the community to build? Why must we rely on DOTLAN, Siggy and out of game fitting tools? Why do you think people are willing to buy multiple monitors just to be able to access information that should be available in game? Do you realize how crazy this all sounds? You have a great blind spot right here.

I think you've done a great job with the API CCP FoxFour, but lets not forget how long overdue this work is from the promises of CREST made 2 years ago. CCP is crap at managing expectations, you hype stuff like tessellation in a fancy demo at FanFest only to discard it completely the next year. It's no wonder CCP had to kick half the company.
Tara Vorkosigan
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#179 - 2014-07-11 15:39:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tara Vorkosigan
What about those of us with low RAM? Firefox likes to omnom 40% of my System RAM or so. I can't afford more RAM, and I can't really have anything else running while I'm playing EVE. And I like being able to click on a fit and have it instantly pop up in EVE so I can save it.
Sir Constantin
#180 - 2014-07-11 16:49:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Constantin
If you are low on ram don't touch the browser and you'll be fine. As far as I know the browser process will show up after you launch the browser ingame.

They can optimize the browser, there are open source browsers like kmeleon which use less than 200MB ram. We don't need the browser for complex stuff, we need something simple for gifs and sites like dotlan, whormholes, evekill, etc.


Removing IGB is a dumb ideea.