These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

CCP is thinking about removing the IGB

First post First post
Author
Jack Tronic
borkedLabs
#181 - 2014-07-11 17:35:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Tronic
Dieter Rams wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Really the only question and problem with moving from the IGB to CREST is the fact that you can browse the IGB from the client versus alt-tabbing. From our, or mine anyways, understanding most of you guys have multiple monitors and that's not an issue. There are also other applications that will overlay your current web browser with the game. Things like Overwolf I think it's called.


Or.... you could make the map useful in EVE and also add a wormhole mapping system à la Siggy. Why does CCP have this fetish to leave features out for the community to build? Why must we rely on DOTLAN, Siggy and out of game fitting tools? Why do you think people are willing to buy multiple monitors just to be able to access information that should be available in game? Do you realize how crazy this all sounds? You have a great blind spot right here.

I think you've done a great job with the API CCP FoxFour, but lets not forget how long overdue this work is from the promises of CREST made 2 years ago. CCP is crap at managing expectations, you hype stuff like tessellation in a fancy demo at FanFest only to discard it completely the next year. It's no wonder CCP had to kick half the company.


Because you'll end up with the bookmark system where you must share bookmarks with corp mates in the same alliance. And deal with the 5 max bookmarks per copy operation.

Honestly people making 3rd party tools is really not a big deal, it provides content generation that CCP themselves would be too overwhelmed to manage and keep up to date. However the big deal is support, the API and CREST are overdue. The IGB is dated.


CCP FoxFour wrote:
There are also other applications that will overlay your current web browser with the game. Things like Overwolf I think it's called.

I hope to god that is a horrible joke that you need to use a 3rd application to fix the EVE experience.
Do you realize that literally EVERYONE uses the IGB while mining because it is so broken and boring? Do you realize that literally EVERY new player uses it to read guides as they run missions?

Let me quote a random person I asked on the street
Quote:

[17:43:11] XXX > fuckin overwolf
[17:43:15] XXX > i never wanna use that
Arronicus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#182 - 2014-07-11 18:13:32 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Oh wow, this is a pretty amazing thread. Mostly filled with a lot of misunderstanding so let me see if I can clear that up before we get to the Jita riots. Before continuing though, please be advised this post comes to you from a phone and is therefore likely to be filled with even more terribleness than my usual posts. I may try and proof read this though.

So, first and foremost the IGB is not being removed anytime soon and defiantly not without a lot of discussion with the CSM and more importantly you guys. When I say not anytime soon I mean there is no plan to remove it, there is not even a plan to look into how much effort it would be to it. Removing the IGB is as best I can tell years away from happening.

So that probably doesn't help this that much as all i have done is confirm we CCP want to remove the IGB and that it is years away from happening. That doesn't help the fact that many of you use the IGB and feel losing the IGB would hurt your gameplay.

So let me try something else. We don't want to remove the IGB until we have CREST up to the point of replacing it. The most common uses of the IGB are things like DOTLAN's radar or wormhole mapping software. Both those really just need your location information, which we can supply in the an even better way via CREST. Better CREST wouldn't require you to have the IGB open. Log into some website, give it permission to see your location, and even when you are not on that web site it know where you are. This means you get your whole corp to sign up and then only those looking at the mail need to open the browser. This is better in so many ways.

The other big thing the IGB offers is the ability to open links in the client. I don't think we have looked to deep into it, but we should be able to have you press a button on web site and then via CREST it tells the server which tells your client to open some window. Maybe a tad shower but again not only is the format and technology better for developers but the number of uses and possibilities is far greater than the IGB.

I could go on listing so many other things but the bottom line is this: CREST is a far newer technology and more importantly one we can maintain far easier than the IGB. We would like to remove the IGB but we will not do so until CREST, or even maybe something else, gets us feature equal to the IGB.

Really the only question and problem with moving from the IGB to CREST is the fact that you can browse the IGB from the client versus alt-tabbing. From our, or mine anyways, understanding most of you guys have multiple monitors and that's not an issue. There are also other applications that will overlay your current web browser with the game. Things like Overwolf I think it's called. The benefits from us doing things through CREST and relying on you guys to use an existing browser are immense. We get to focus on making cool things instead of trying to maintain a customized browser in the client. Not sure you guys realize just how much work there is in maintaining something as complex as a browser and how much of a security problem for everyone this is.

Anyways, nothing is happening anytime soon, when it does it will be because we, CCP and you the players and the CSM, have had a good long discussion about it, and only once something else is in place to replace it.

I hope that elevates your concerns for now. Let's get back to blowing up spaceships and building an awesome universe together and enjoying the sun... Which I might be the only one doing :P


Pretty darn good for a post from your phone, aside from your tide shower ;)

Very interesting to know how CCP sees the situation. Personally, the only reason I use the IGB is for the sites like staticmapper that track your location. Definitely wouldn't have any issue with the IGB being gone if CREST does what it sounds like you can make it do, even if I do have concerns about other players intercepting personal location information (ingame, not IRL location)
Tara Vorkosigan
CauldronCorp
#183 - 2014-07-11 21:30:06 UTC
Sir Constantin wrote:
If you are low on ram don't touch the browser and you'll be fine. As far as I know the browser process will show up after you launch the browser ingame.

They can optimize the browser, there are open source browsers like kmeleon which use less than 200MB ram. We don't need the browser for complex stuff, we need something simple for gifs and sites like dotlan, whormholes, evekill, etc.


Removing IGB is a dumb ideea.


I'm actually agreeing with you. I can run the IGB just fine. But if I have to have Firefox open as well, it'll basically gimp both EVE and Firefox through lack of ram and having to use a page file.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#184 - 2014-07-11 21:43:08 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Anabella Rella wrote:
This! Maybe the leet types on the CSM all have multi-display setups but, I seriously doubt that to be the case for the majority of the player base. I have neither the desk space nor the inclination to purchase a second display just to play Eve.
Do you have a phone?

Quote:
We already have to rely on an out of game solution to avoid the monotonous Eve soundtrack.
So what you're saying is that the removal of the jukebox didn't really change anything and that their reasoning for dumping it was pretty much spot on.


Yes, I have a smartphone with a small (compared to my computer display) screen. But, that misses the point. Why remove a convenient in-game feature that's widely used and force us to rely on a second display, a smartphone, tablet, etc.? As another poster pointed out, when the current IGB was created it was touted as a major upgrade in terms of both functionality and future maintainability. Was that all just hogwash? Was CCP being dishonest with us then or, are they being dishonest now?

As to the jukebox, you ignored my main point again; in order to get beyond hearing the same 4 tunes over and over we're supposed to use a 3rd party app whereas before we didn't. My question is where does this all end? Eve already relies far too much on 3rd party software and websites. I don't feel that dumping the IGB in favor of having to use yet another out of game program is the way to go. I've never played another game that required me to run multiple out of game programs in order to use features that were once (and should still be) built into the game client itself.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#185 - 2014-07-11 22:09:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Anabella Rella wrote:
Yes, I have a smartphone with a small (compared to my computer display) screen. But, that misses the point. Why remove a convenient in-game feature that's widely used and force us to rely on a second display, a smartphone, tablet, etc.? As another poster pointed out, when the current IGB was created it was touted as a major upgrade in terms of both functionality and future maintainability. Was that all just hogwash? Was CCP being dishonest with us then or, are they being dishonest now?
First of all, the question is whether it actually is widely used.
Second of all, I'd imagine that the IGB is fairly easy to update. It's kind of the point of chromium. But even then, the question is if it's worth it. Even an updated IGB would not provide the benefits they're talking about.

Quote:
As to the jukebox, you ignored my main point again; in order to get beyond hearing the same 4 tunes over and over we're supposed to use a 3rd party app whereas before we didn't.
No, I didn't ignore it. I twisted it in a direction you didn't like. The old jukebox actually created exactly that problem because it was the only (hideously poorly-featured) music controller in the game. Anything in the game that triggered a track to play would reset the entire player and you'd be back to hear the same 4 tunes — the one at the top of your list — over and over again… if you were lucky and it didn't just stop outright.

If you wanted proper music in EVE before, you still had to use an external media player. They just made a hard cut in what the in-game music player was used for: now it's only in-game music.

The reason we see so many third-pary applications is because they're simply vastly better than what the game has to offer. At that point, the question is whether it's worth the developers' time to implement or maintain code that will duplicate but always be inferior to the generally used and universally available options. If it already exists, why do it all over again, why do it badly, and why increase your workload by having to maintain this bad replication of functionality? The reason you don't see this in other games is because they don't have that built-in functionality and/or exactly zero third-party support.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#186 - 2014-07-11 22:33:10 UTC
Tippia wrote:
First of all, the question is whether it actually is widely used..


The entire CFC uses it in every activity we do.
Seraph Essael
Anomalous Existence
Spatial Instability
#187 - 2014-07-11 22:38:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Seraph Essael
Tippia wrote:
First of all, the question is whether it actually is widely used.

There's ten pages of posts here and the gist of them ten pages is to not remove the IGB. Not to mention the sheer number of Wormholers that use static mapper and wormhol.es and a number of other sites within the IGB...

So yes, it is widely used...

Also this:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
That doesn't help the fact that many of you use the IGB and feel losing the IGB would hurt your gameplay.

Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."

erittainvarma
Fistful of Finns
#188 - 2014-07-11 22:47:24 UTC
Second, third and fourth screens are for alts, not for some damn web browsers, you ****** dev!

Okay, I actually have only two screens. But at least with two screens the situation is that if I'm actually playing the game, using external browser is much more inconvenient than using IGB even if it's laggy at some sites. The problem with external browsers are that they always are either blocking the view or going invisible when you don't want them to. I haven't tried overwolf though, but I actually feel that IGB is just fine for my use (though I would love to see it play videos also, fleets would be much greater if opening videos would be as easy as gifs and images).
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#189 - 2014-07-11 22:57:25 UTC
Seraph Essael wrote:
Tippia wrote:
First of all, the question is whether it actually is widely used.

There's ten pages of posts here and the gist of them ten pages is to not remove the IGB. Not to mention the sheer number of Wormholers that use static mapper and wormhol.es and a number of other sites within the IGB...
Yes, but how many of thuse use it as an actual in-game browser rather than as a means to feed in-game data back and forth to out-of-game processing?

It's that last functionality that CREST is supposed to replace. The sites you listed are doing just that and seem to be pretty much exactly what CREST is aimed at. Granted, some sort of in-game data browser might be needed to view the output of that processing but really, that's not nearly as neat (or secure) as having a way to feed data back into the game through a purpose-built interface.
Dyscordia
Super Elite Friendship Club
#190 - 2014-07-11 22:59:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Dyscordia
Tara Vorkosigan wrote:
What about those of us with low RAM? Firefox likes to omnom 40% of my System RAM or so. I can't afford more RAM, and I can't really have anything else running while I'm playing EVE. And I like being able to click on a fit and have it instantly pop up in EVE so I can save it.


This is a good example of why third party applications or out of client solutions are a stop gap measure and not end goal for a your product IMHO. No one really wants to add more hard drive clutter and run more processes as a requirement to have the entire EVE experience. I've been around long enough to see many third party products and websites stop being supported (abruptly) or documentation grow stale because third parties are not bound by anyone to continue working on or growing their products because it's just a hobby. Some do. Bless them, but not all.

Quote:
" From our, or mine anyways, understanding most of you guys have multiple monitors and that's not an issue. "


Metrics? I certainly do not have a second, third, or forth monitor. I have a Manhattan apartment and I cannot fit the NORAD war room on my desk just for gaming. I work in development and my users would be appalled if I made assumptions without any metrics or research when brainstorming functionality. Pictures on /r/eve/ of setups with LED lights behind their 2-4 monitors to set the mood is hardly the norm in my opinion. Not everyone cares enough to have an optimized computing set up that rivals small nations. They just want to hop in a space ship and shoot stuff. Using their one monitor. For folks like me who are completely fine with one monitor only, this seems like a step backwards regardless if it is a new technology or not.

When I first saw EVE in 2005, the fact that it had an in game browser mind blowing and a huge selling point to me that this is a pretty advanced game (at the time) and convinced me to start a pilot. When I am being told the next generation solution to the IGB is API and third party development, I am less than enthused. In fact it seems like more work than it's worth to me. I'll just alt tab to chrome, PYFA or whatever else third party app I have to use because useful information is clunky to navigate to in the EVE client if that useful information even exists at all... unless CREST is mind blowing and can be easily demonstrated. The IGB was easy enough - you open the Browser and low and behold, it's a Browser! No tutorial required. You can surf the net just like Firefox. It's about the only thing that is easy out of the box with EVE. I am already anticipating a Community Spotlight where you showcase a few CREST highlights and discuss what an overlay is within two paragraphs, then the post gets buried under years of other community spotlights and anyone coming into the game after X date has no idea what what this even is without digging to find info that may or may not be stale. They get called a noob on some forum for asking questions and quit.

The main take away from this post is that as a veteran (like most of your subscription base), I am not getting any younger and patience diminishes every year for solutions that are actually more complicated than its predecessor and requires tutorials or research (which isn't just a CCP trend, it seems like an industry thing). Apple iPhones revolutionized its market by adding a simple, yet functionally advanced phone with features a blackberry could already theoretically do (but in much a more cumbersome way). How is RIM doing these days? Answer: Interest and enthusiasm for Blackberries is non-existent. I just had to check yahoo finance for RIMM/BBRY stock ticker to see if they even still exist. It's abysmal but it's still there. The minute there is a space ship/sci fi game just as engaging as EVE but with a sleeker and easy to use package, this is where you perspective client base will go. You will retain veterans like Blackberry did... for a while.. I am not saying this mythical new game will ever happen, but we all know how the story would play out and I would consider this when planning your development.

The IGB may be archaic, a security risk and have a slew of negative marks on why it has to go. I can appreciate that. But CREST/API/3rd Parites will have big shoes to fill in terms of simplicity, ease of use and function. Losing the IGB is simply something I am not looking forward to in all honesty. You don't have a very easy sell. If this is the route you want to go, I recommend a well thought out rollout and CREST Support system. The IGB has been a staple feature since the beginning that is ever present because I locked it to my neocom bar. I am sure countless others have done the same. I wouldn't take this change too lightly.
Seraph Essael
Anomalous Existence
Spatial Instability
#191 - 2014-07-11 23:10:04 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Seraph Essael wrote:
Tippia wrote:
First of all, the question is whether it actually is widely used.

There's ten pages of posts here and the gist of them ten pages is to not remove the IGB. Not to mention the sheer number of Wormholers that use static mapper and wormhol.es and a number of other sites within the IGB...
Yes, but how many of thuse use it as an actual in-game browser rather than as a means to feed in-game data back and forth to out-of-game processing?

It's that last functionality that CREST is supposed to replace. The sites you listed are doing just that and seem to be pretty much exactly what CREST is aimed at. Granted, some sort of in-game data browser might be needed to view the output of that processing but really, that's not nearly as neat (or secure) as having a way to feed data back into the game through a purpose-built interface.


Okay, I know several people personally who use the IGB (including myself for the first one) for things like google translate (even though its not to great due to slang type in languages, but you can usually get the general gist of the conversation or what has been said), for things like Eve survival, and a multitude of other sites that help them with their industry and manufacturing or missions etc. I know several PvPers who use it to quickly browse killboards if theyre looking to pick and choose fights...

I can't be the only person in the entirity of the game who knows people that uses the IGB as a browser...

And not to be funny, but using WH mappers through the IGB is still using the IGB.

Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#192 - 2014-07-11 23:20:46 UTC
Seraph Essael wrote:
And not to be funny, but using WH mappers through the IGB is still using the IGB.

Yes, but it's a fairly silly and cumbersome hack compared to just automatically feeding the data to an external processor.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#193 - 2014-07-11 23:25:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Seraph Essael wrote:
And not to be funny, but using WH mappers through the IGB is still using the IGB.

Yes, but it's a fairly silly and cumbersome hack compared to just automatically feeding the data to an external processor.


Better than tabbing out. We have a whole host of tools we use via the IGB that simply would be a nightmare to use if we had to tab out of the game all the time.
Dyscordia
Super Elite Friendship Club
#194 - 2014-07-11 23:49:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Seraph Essael wrote:
And not to be funny, but using WH mappers through the IGB is still using the IGB.

Yes, but it's a fairly silly and cumbersome hack compared to just automatically feeding the data to an external processor.


Better than tabbing out. We have a whole host of tools we use via the IGB that simply would be a nightmare to use if we had to tab out of the game all the time.


I agree - I already alt+tab out of EVE to play EVE too much already.

The prospect of having to use a third party overlay instead of alt tabbing is almost a step in the right direction. Almost.

IIRC, I remember reading years ago that one of the reasons CCP never allowed third parties to develop complete UI redesigns & custom plugins to allow advanced readouts like in other games is that it would give the fully customized pilot using third party setups a distinct advantage in EVE PVP over new users or users that opt out of third party plug ins. So they never explored this avenue for this level of third party integration. I actually don't know much about CREST nor do I want to spend the time reading up on a feature that may or may not be implemented in the far future. But it sounds like it could be leveraged somewhat in this capacity. One thing that is true in EVE is information in king.


BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#195 - 2014-07-11 23:58:05 UTC  |  Edited by: BrundleMeth
Hatshepsut IV wrote:

All garbage aside, I will not accept the possibility of them letting us use SSO to migrate our mapping tools over as a reason not to raise hell until they give us 100 percent concrete proof that they will do so.

Can/might/should is not will. There is lots of stuff they could do but won't our haven't.

Mapping tools are bread and butter to the entire way of life of wormhole corps who roll and scan out 10-20 chains a day. Doubly so if you have multiple corps in an alliance. They function to give a unified map to make your bookmarks match up.

It costs them nothing to leave the IGB in exactly as is now, it hurts noone by doing something.

It hurts an entire player base removing it for no other reason then certain people don't use/like it as much as some of us.

But...I don't really care either. If I can't view You Tube in it, get rid of it....
Seraph Essael
Anomalous Existence
Spatial Instability
#196 - 2014-07-12 00:11:46 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Seraph Essael wrote:
And not to be funny, but using WH mappers through the IGB is still using the IGB.

Yes, but it's a fairly silly and cumbersome hack compared to just automatically feeding the data to an external processor.


Better than tabbing out. We have a whole host of tools we use via the IGB that simply would be a nightmare to use if we had to tab out of the game all the time.

Yep, exactly this. Alt + tabbing to check ever single wormhole, every single day. I must go through at least 15+ wormholes in a single scanning / maping session somedays. To tab out on each of them would be quite frankly, a pain in the ass. Then theres the checking of killboards if I find a lone Drake in a hole ratting to see if he ever flies alone or acts as bait. Etc etc.

Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."

Nolak Ataru
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#197 - 2014-07-12 03:10:23 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Anyways, nothing is happening anytime soon, when it does it will be because we, CCP and you the players and the CSM, have had a good long discussion about it, and only once something else is in place to replace it.


It's too damn early in the morning to tell really bad jokes, FoxFour.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#198 - 2014-07-12 03:15:15 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Lykouleon wrote:
Carmen Electra wrote:

Just to be sure, you do realize the IGB is a version of chrome, right?


OMG, they did that to Chrome??


its part of the webkit that chrome is based on yes...but it is not chrome. Although they could easily update the browser as it exists right now simply by updating the toolkit. It would be a very small and significant patch. Probably result in another boot.ini incident somehow so it is avoided :-P.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#199 - 2014-07-12 03:16:30 UTC
it is missing Chrome's V8 Java engine for one...its missing html 5 support...flash or any other application that requires escalating system privileges.
Starden Arnolles
Wormlife Freeport Operations
Wormlife
#200 - 2014-07-12 04:21:12 UTC
I fear the developers are confusing figuring out how to make their jobs easier with figuring out how to improve the game.