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Highsec and nullsec play the same game with the same tools. How is it then that nullsec is, in your mind, a vastly organized machine waiting to stomp out all other producers and highsec is a bumbling mess that can't find it's backside with two hands? Is it because the players in those nullsec have made decisions that benefit themselves that involve being cooperative? There is no secret sauce here. If only there was a way for highsec players to act like nullsec players....



PvP != solo PvP. Everyone complains about "the blob". What is a blob other than a group of players acting in concert? Why is it then that industry and market PvP (in the mind of the high-sec player) is only a solo game? I guarantee you (see above) that those "evil" nullsec cartels don't view the game that way and act accordingly. Once again, nothing is preventing players in any space from acting that way.

It's mainly because nullsec players (those relevant to the discussion) don't mind being part of coalitions with > 1000 members. Personally, I dislike being part of any organization so large that I can't remember the reallife names of everyone in teamspeak. That attitude will get me nowhere in the entities that play SOV games; fine, EvE has enough other things I can do. Right now, highsec industry is one of them. After this patch? I'm not sure that this will still be the case.

I feel compelled to correct some misconceptions regarding nulsec.

Every person in a coalition is part of an alliance. Every person in that alliance is part of a corp. The size and composition of players within your corp is entirely up to your corp's leadership team, and to a certain extent its members.

Being part of an alliance or coalition does not require and usually is not about everyone being close personal friends irl, though this certainly does happen. Its more about having a common identity and purpose within the game environment. Being friends irl can help that small core group to identify with each other. But if you refuse to be a part of something in eve because you don't know everyone in that entity's rl identity, you are severely restricting your gaming experience.

I have done industry in hisec, losec, nulsec, and w-space. None of these changes are going to break anything. Don't need those labs anymore? Melt them down (preferably before Crius goes live) and build something with the PI. Or sell it.

Don't want to sell the labs or reprocessed P4s because PI cheap right now? No problem. So buy up those cheap P4s and make something profitable. There are always opportunities if you just look for them.

Industry in Eve as well as irl is not static. Things change. When things change, move away from unprofitable products and move into profitable ones. Your flexibility is nearly unlimited within any major production group. All you need is blueprints and materials.

If you don't want to work with the teams, don't. They are not mandatory. You can choose to use the "no effect/cost" default team and build as you always have. You will have no bonuses and may not be as profitable or competitive as someone that is.

Once someone with deep pockets decides to set up in a system, they should have regularly good teams in system. You can co locate and sponge off of them. The benefit is you get the team for nothing. But you have to spend time/isk moving. Or not. Again. Your choice. It balances out.

Team locations will be publicly known. There will be a lot of people moving things around early in Crius once the teams start getting auctioned out. The high-value teams (those with overlapping specialties) will get bought by the systems with the deepest pockets. But because they are the best, they will end up costing more, thus biting into profits more. Lesser teams will cost less. It all balances out.

Nulsec is not going to destroy hisec manufacturing with their "advantages." They would have to import massive amounts of minerals from hisec to nulsec (jf fuel usage is going up 50% in case you forgot) make the stuff, then ship it back to hisec. The import/export costs alone could easily offset any ME/team/tax advantages.

If anyone thinks this is untrue, I challenge you to bust out the spreadsheets and do an actual cost analysis on something. Feel free to substitute mineral prices for compressed ore prices, since compressed ores have not been readily available in hisec.

If your response to Crius is to rage-quit, then you are giving the "nulsec cartels" the biggest advantage they could possibly hope for; less competition.

"Infusion of choice" is debatable. This is more akin to coercion These changes also the take away gains achieved at a considerable expense. Grinding stats to drop a POS required a huge investment of time which was time spent NOT doing other things. I suspect its at least 100's of hours of missioning? (not sure tbh) Simply taking that away is not an infusion of choice. Additionally, there is no way to escape the penalties being imposed for refusal to cooperate with competitors. One can cooperate today too without the "frying pan or fire" kind of choice that is coming.

The problem is how the organized group outperforms the indiviudal. Increase in speed would have been fine and similar to other areas of the game (e.g. nullsec exploration/anoms/ratting all bring more isk/hour). Increase in cost efficiency risks making highsec industry not less rewarding than nullsec industry but not rewarding at all, as in negative isk/hr. At this point it's no longer a choice to do industry solo, it becomes forced group play. It's not certain that this will happen, but what has been presented so far does not make me confident that the risk does not exist. A large number of things change at once, and I doubt we can realistically estimate the cumulative effectsize of all of them taken together.

Is it an oversight on the blog that there is no listed Large class > Industrial Command Ship specialty team?

yeah, right.

Are you aware that for at least r32s nullsec is forced to export / reimport, since those moons are regional and even at your most tinfoil you must be aware that no single power holds a complete range?

Besides, even right now the bulk of moon minerals are shipped raw to jita, re-exported for refining, shipped back to jita, then used. Some CFC groups have local sale & refining, can't say anything about other groups. But even in the CFC the price is pegged to Jita averages. Local use only saves on shipping. So if traders in jita put up higher buy orders, nullsec will sell to jita when local consumers are priced out.


Oh wait I forgot we won't sell anything to empire because we're in a giant conspiracy and CCP is our willing servant.

Not a rage-quit for me.

If you want to make comments, do it on the Post I've created "Revamp of Industry" in section EVE Communication Center » EVE General Discussion.

According to some very napkinny math (not even 8am here):

Small to medium T2 ships come with a profitmargin of 10-50% (e..g sallvalue = 1.10-1.5 * material costs) right now.

Now factor in
-9% mat cost bonus from an fully upgraded Amaar Outpost
-I'd guesstimate 5% of mat. cost advantage due to differences in the job costs section (once all the math is crunched; I'm aware that job cost is not based on mat cost but on sellvalue, however sellvalue = matcost * profit factor, so it works as a conservative estimate)

Assuming nullsec as cost baseline, highsec would have a 16% increased production cost. As both costs and profit in this example are normalized to material cost value, we can directly subtract one from the other and the profit margin becomes quite slim for a large number of ships, though not yet non-existant for all.

This is under the assumption of identical material costs; however the same cost calculation applies to T2 components which are the largest fraction of the material costs. Worst case, the component cost difference between nullsec and highsec is directly proportional to the respective production cost difference (as calculated before) & suddenly the cost increase is approximately squared and we're looking at 35% additional costs (1.16^2 =~ 1.35) in highsec, which pushes most small to medium ships to the point where they're no longer profitable.

Note that I haven't even mentioned teams; the combination of the changes to job costs, additional material cost modifiers and unlimited production slots in itself can already create cost discrepancies of > 25%, yet CCP can't just stick to those changes for now and see how they pan out, they have to add more new systems that further complicate the issue and make it more unpredictable. Because mailing lists I assume (yeah sorry, that response really rubbed me the wrong way).