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[Crius] Research feedback

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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#261 - 2014-07-06 07:54:16 UTC
Soul Azizora wrote:
Did a quick skim - couldn't see this mentioned anywhere.

Might be nice to be able to see mats for invention on a BPO in show-info? Having it greyed out on a BPO makes sense in terms of starting it - but not in terms of getting information I think?


You cannot invent with BPO, hence it is pointless to show the mats in the BPO. A functionality to get you directly to a BPC from the Copy-tab, however, could help.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Dero de'Asketh
Heimatar Enhanced Fleet Industries
#262 - 2014-07-06 13:55:35 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Something to be aware of, pretty much all of the cost values on Singularity are garbage at this point because they are scaled based on activity, of which there is very little on the test server.


Could you not seed SiSi activity with a snapshot from TQ? While it wouldn't be accurate, it should be representative enough -- especially if you are still working from 28-day moving averages -- if you reset every few days.

More representative prices could quieten a lot of the mutterings around and about...
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#263 - 2014-07-07 10:42:21 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Research costs scale based on time; base cost is for level 1, and higher levels cost-scale based on what multiple of level 1 time they take. This means that you have significant decisions to make about whether or not (and where!) to research high-end blueprints to high levels.


Hold on just a moment there, you're telling me that researching a blueprint that costs roughly a billion isk (capital component bpo) to ME 10 over the course of ~100 days for ~100mil, whereas another blueprint that costs roughly 1.1bil (carrier blueprint) to ME 10 over the course of ~300 days, for ~7-50 billion isk, is intended?


Probably not. Judging by CCP Nullarbor's last 2 posts, it is the case on Sisi because there's not enough jobs running, and that it will be significantly lower on TQ. Remains to be seen how that pans out.

I sure hope that I don't need to pay ~12B to research a BS BPO to max levels. ^^


Thing is, most bpos require a reasonable amount of isk to research to max levels. I can check a BS later, but I'd be willing to bet it's under 120mil, it's just actual capital ship bpos which have their research costs set to insane values that noone would ever pay. But let's suppose for a moment, that costs ARE actually working as intended for carrier bpos, that means an archon BPO costs around 4 billion isk to research from ME 9 to ME 10. ME 9 to ME 10, when you are producing out of a single upgraded amarr station, or out of a POS, is a savings of 2 components on that Archon (7 if you have no ME bonus from pos or station). So, at lets say 12mil per component, we're looking at a savings of 24 mil per run. 7 1/4 days per run puts us at 4 per month, or 48 per year. That's 1152m per year.

Return on investment under current figures puts researching an archon from ME 9 to ME 10 at 3 1/2 years just to break even. Clearly something is broken, or max researched capital bpos are supposed to be the new Tech 2 bpos.


There's no specific intent about costs, the system is set up to scale things in a way we believe is generally coherent without much/any special-casing. Numbers will obviously pan out differently on TQ due to different usage patterns. That said, if there are some things where certain investments end up having extremely long pay-off times, that's not a thing we're necessarily unhappy with, both because some players *are* in it for the real long haul and because places where there are legitimate decisions about whether or not something's worth it are interesting and valuable, particularly when they're concentrated in areas of the game that are essentially only accessible to experienced, veteran players. If you're buying cap ship BPOs, you should be sufficiently competent at industry that you can evaluate how far to research a given blueprint without guidance (explicit or implicit) from us :)
Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#264 - 2014-07-07 18:32:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Evelgrivion
CCP Greyscale wrote:
There's no specific intent about costs, the system is set up to scale things in a way we believe is generally coherent without much/any special-casing. Numbers will obviously pan out differently on TQ due to different usage patterns. That said, if there are some things where certain investments end up having extremely long pay-off times, that's not a thing we're necessarily unhappy with, both because some players *are* in it for the real long haul and because places where there are legitimate decisions about whether or not something's worth it are interesting and valuable, particularly when they're concentrated in areas of the game that are essentially only accessible to experienced, veteran players. If you're buying cap ship BPOs, you should be sufficiently competent at industry that you can evaluate how far to research a given blueprint without guidance (explicit or implicit) from us :)


So what you're saying is, its up to the industrialist to figure out if his potential investments are likely to pay off, much as they do now, but with a newly added, brand new layer of hidden variable laden BS thrown into the design? This literally goes against everything about streamlining, clarification, and reduced complexity you spoke of in that intentions blog of yours. What is actually going on, here? Ugh
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate
Wildly Inappropriate.
#265 - 2014-07-07 18:35:08 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Research costs scale based on time; base cost is for level 1, and higher levels cost-scale based on what multiple of level 1 time they take. This means that you have significant decisions to make about whether or not (and where!) to research high-end blueprints to high levels.


Hold on just a moment there, you're telling me that researching a blueprint that costs roughly a billion isk (capital component bpo) to ME 10 over the course of ~100 days for ~100mil, whereas another blueprint that costs roughly 1.1bil (carrier blueprint) to ME 10 over the course of ~300 days, for ~7-50 billion isk, is intended?


Probably not. Judging by CCP Nullarbor's last 2 posts, it is the case on Sisi because there's not enough jobs running, and that it will be significantly lower on TQ. Remains to be seen how that pans out.

I sure hope that I don't need to pay ~12B to research a BS BPO to max levels. ^^


Thing is, most bpos require a reasonable amount of isk to research to max levels. I can check a BS later, but I'd be willing to bet it's under 120mil, it's just actual capital ship bpos which have their research costs set to insane values that noone would ever pay. But let's suppose for a moment, that costs ARE actually working as intended for carrier bpos, that means an archon BPO costs around 4 billion isk to research from ME 9 to ME 10. ME 9 to ME 10, when you are producing out of a single upgraded amarr station, or out of a POS, is a savings of 2 components on that Archon (7 if you have no ME bonus from pos or station). So, at lets say 12mil per component, we're looking at a savings of 24 mil per run. 7 1/4 days per run puts us at 4 per month, or 48 per year. That's 1152m per year.

Return on investment under current figures puts researching an archon from ME 9 to ME 10 at 3 1/2 years just to break even. Clearly something is broken, or max researched capital bpos are supposed to be the new Tech 2 bpos.


Or you know, dont research it to me10% and eat the 20 mil and build durign the time it woudl research, pretty sure that makes alot more sense. ME10% isnt always perfect
Grenn Putubi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#266 - 2014-07-08 00:33:46 UTC
I skimmed the thread and didn't see anyone mention this and I foresee it being a big deal if it's not addressed now:

On Sisi there are times research can take months at a time, not a huge deal really considering there are no lines to worry about being tied up for that long until you start thinking about trying to exploit the system.

What measures are the Devs putting in place to prevent extremely long research jobs from being performed by unsubbed characters and then being delivered by their corp without ever having to resub the account that installed the job? I foresee a wave of newb accounts in their free month training all their research skills to max, joining a corp, installing a bunch of jobs with extremely long research times and then never actually paying a subscription fee at all. They let the free month expire and the job belongs to the corp so it will just keep going till it's finished and some other character delivers it when it's done. This could be done in an NPC station so there'd be no risk of losing the job to an attack and they wouldn't have to worry about keeping a tower fueled either. It's essentially free research slots at the cost of a new account which can be purchased fairly cheaply in large amounts through the various sales CCP has throughout the year.

Another issue I started thinking about and haven't seen a definite CCP response to yet is how they're going to deal with BPOs that are installed for research when the conversion happens. Will the jobs be cancelled and the BPOs returned to where they came from or will they be allowed to complete first and then delivered to the intended destination? Will they be converted to the new system before or after the job completes? If I install a job the night before the patch to take a bpo from 0 to 10ME and the job's going to take 15 days, will the job complete in 15 days and deliver a 10ME bpo to me? What if the job is queued to start after the patch? Say I queue a job to start after that first bpo to take another bpo from 5 to 10 ME and that job's gonna take another 15 days, hogging up that research line for 30 days...will it start after the first job completes even tho there won't be a job queue system anymore? Will the queued job be cancelled and the bpo returned to me? Will it just begin immediately after the patch finishes and run concurrently with the first job so they both deliver at the same time? Will the job times be adjusted to the new system and that 15day job be converted to a 2 or 3 month job and follow the new time scale along with the new research ratings?
Josclyn Verreuil
Dark 0rder.
#267 - 2014-07-08 01:52:53 UTC
Grenn Putubi wrote:

Another issue I started thinking about and haven't seen a definite CCP response to yet is how they're going to deal with BPOs that are installed for research when the conversion happens. Will the jobs be cancelled and the BPOs returned to where they came from or will they be allowed to complete first and then delivered to the intended destination? Will they be converted to the new system before or after the job completes? If I install a job the night before the patch to take a bpo from 0 to 10ME and the job's going to take 15 days, will the job complete in 15 days and deliver a 10ME bpo to me? What if the job is queued to start after the patch? Say I queue a job to start after that first bpo to take another bpo from 5 to 10 ME and that job's gonna take another 15 days, hogging up that research line for 30 days...will it start after the first job completes even tho there won't be a job queue system anymore? Will the queued job be cancelled and the bpo returned to me? Will it just begin immediately after the patch finishes and run concurrently with the first job so they both deliver at the same time? Will the job times be adjusted to the new system and that 15day job be converted to a 2 or 3 month job and follow the new time scale along with the new research ratings?


Looking forward to an answer on this one. There are quite a few folks furiously trying to research BPOs to 10/10 before Crius hits, and I'm quite curious what will happen to prints that are baking when it goes live.
Grenn Putubi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#268 - 2014-07-08 04:31:09 UTC
With only 2 weeks left till the patch is scheduled to hit live they should be able to give us some specifics on these issues, if not now then very soon.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#269 - 2014-07-08 05:11:17 UTC
Josclyn Verreuil wrote:
Grenn Putubi wrote:

Another issue I started thinking about and haven't seen a definite CCP response to yet is how they're going to deal with BPOs that are installed for research when the conversion happens. Will the jobs be cancelled and the BPOs returned to where they came from or will they be allowed to complete first and then delivered to the intended destination? Will they be converted to the new system before or after the job completes? If I install a job the night before the patch to take a bpo from 0 to 10ME and the job's going to take 15 days, will the job complete in 15 days and deliver a 10ME bpo to me? What if the job is queued to start after the patch? Say I queue a job to start after that first bpo to take another bpo from 5 to 10 ME and that job's gonna take another 15 days, hogging up that research line for 30 days...will it start after the first job completes even tho there won't be a job queue system anymore? Will the queued job be cancelled and the bpo returned to me? Will it just begin immediately after the patch finishes and run concurrently with the first job so they both deliver at the same time? Will the job times be adjusted to the new system and that 15day job be converted to a 2 or 3 month job and follow the new time scale along with the new research ratings?


Looking forward to an answer on this one. There are quite a few folks furiously trying to research BPOs to 10/10 before Crius hits, and I'm quite curious what will happen to prints that are baking when it goes live.



Asked and Answered like 65875875768548646754764764567 times already

All jobs will complete as they are currently scheduled
All BPO's will return to where they were when the job started
ALL conversion from old ME/PE to new ME/TE will happen AFTER the job completion at the new researched number
Grenn Putubi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#270 - 2014-07-08 05:31:47 UTC
Could you share the blue post where this was answered cause I haven't seen it and I've search the forums more than a few times looking for it.
Badda Benjaminsen
Heimbrent
#271 - 2014-07-08 08:50:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Badda Benjaminsen
There doesn't seem to be any stacking bonuses from several i.e labs at the same POS currently. I onlined 1 through 6 research labs but the research times on the bpos stayed the same no matter how many labs I had online. Or does the stacking bonuses only apply to design labs (Research wise) ? Not sure if it works on assembly arrays currently.
Wealla Heneltry
Heimatar Enhanced Fleet Industries
#272 - 2014-07-08 09:09:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Wealla Heneltry
Grenn Putubi wrote:
Could you share the blue post where this was answered cause I haven't seen it and I've search the forums more than a few times looking for it.


Here's one that at least covers the first two points. Number 3 -- conversion after completion -- seems a sensible way of doing things, although I couldn't find a quote from a quick search.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#273 - 2014-07-08 11:34:15 UTC
Badda Benjaminsen wrote:
There doesn't seem to be any stacking bonuses from several i.e labs at the same POS currently. I onlined 1 through 6 research labs but the research times on the bpos stayed the same no matter how many labs I had online. Or does the stacking bonuses only apply to design labs (Research wise) ? Not sure if it works on assembly arrays currently.



There's no stacking bonus for times.

It's only to do with the isk cost for installing the job.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Grenn Putubi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#274 - 2014-07-08 17:21:55 UTC
Wealla Heneltry wrote:
Grenn Putubi wrote:
Could you share the blue post where this was answered cause I haven't seen it and I've search the forums more than a few times looking for it.


Here's one that at least covers the first two points. Number 3 -- conversion after completion -- seems a sensible way of doing things, although I couldn't find a quote from a quick search.


Yeah, I've seen that one but it has more to do with worries about remote installment of jobs from stations than what I was really asking about. Since that was answered already I was more worried about the specifics of how BPs will be treated if they're actually in research when the conversion happens and what will be done about jobs that are in queue to be worked on but haven't started yet.

There are a lot of possibilities for how to handle these cases and I haven't seen a blue response giving a definite answer on them. With less than 2 weeks to go it's really something we deserve to know because it's going to have a huge effect on those of us rushing to get our BP collections researched before the patch.
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#275 - 2014-07-08 19:28:04 UTC
Grenn Putubi wrote:
Wealla Heneltry wrote:
Grenn Putubi wrote:
Could you share the blue post where this was answered cause I haven't seen it and I've search the forums more than a few times looking for it.


Here's one that at least covers the first two points. Number 3 -- conversion after completion -- seems a sensible way of doing things, although I couldn't find a quote from a quick search.


Yeah, I've seen that one but it has more to do with worries about remote installment of jobs from stations than what I was really asking about. Since that was answered already I was more worried about the specifics of how BPs will be treated if they're actually in research when the conversion happens and what will be done about jobs that are in queue to be worked on but haven't started yet.

There are a lot of possibilities for how to handle these cases and I haven't seen a blue response giving a definite answer on them. With less than 2 weeks to go it's really something we deserve to know because it's going to have a huge effect on those of us rushing to get our BP collections researched before the patch.


We are in the process of writing the patch notes for Crius which will contain specifics of how the migration of running jobs occurs.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
Cersei Galadriel
Doomheim
#276 - 2014-07-08 20:06:55 UTC
Speaking of running jobs, I have several ME research jobs that were scheduled on Tranquility and are now complete. On Singularity, the industry window appears to show the job correctly, except that no facility is selected in the top corner:

http://i1172.photobucket.com/albums/r579/TheRealActionHank/MEbefore.jpg

When i hit deliver, it says the job failed, and the BP is still at ME 0%:

http://i1172.photobucket.com/albums/r579/TheRealActionHank/MEAfter.jpg

Manufacturing view of BP immediately after, in case it's useful somehow:

http://i1172.photobucket.com/albums/r579/TheRealActionHank/MEAfter2.png
Grenn Putubi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#277 - 2014-07-08 20:21:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Grenn Putubi
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Grenn Putubi wrote:
Wealla Heneltry wrote:
Grenn Putubi wrote:
Could you share the blue post where this was answered cause I haven't seen it and I've search the forums more than a few times looking for it.


Here's one that at least covers the first two points. Number 3 -- conversion after completion -- seems a sensible way of doing things, although I couldn't find a quote from a quick search.


Yeah, I've seen that one but it has more to do with worries about remote installment of jobs from stations than what I was really asking about. Since that was answered already I was more worried about the specifics of how BPs will be treated if they're actually in research when the conversion happens and what will be done about jobs that are in queue to be worked on but haven't started yet.

There are a lot of possibilities for how to handle these cases and I haven't seen a blue response giving a definite answer on them. With less than 2 weeks to go it's really something we deserve to know because it's going to have a huge effect on those of us rushing to get our BP collections researched before the patch.


We are in the process of writing the patch notes for Crius which will contain specifics of how the migration of running jobs occurs.


Good to hear. I'm anxious for the specifics, as I'm sure everyone else is.

Any chance of an answer to my other query about how you're planning to handle the possible exploitation of unsubbed accounts running extremely long research jobs for a corp?
Neo Hutt
#278 - 2014-07-08 22:25:56 UTC
Not sure if this a bug or a feature. Trying to make 10 x 200 run copies from a maxed caldari fuel bpo takes ... 12 days, while building from a 200 run takes 12 hours. Also... max run on a fuel block bpc now is 200?!
asteroidjas
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#279 - 2014-07-09 03:04:05 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Something to be aware of, pretty much all of the cost values on Singularity are garbage at this point because they are scaled based on activity, of which there is very little on the test server.

Our own simulations from TQ data put the estimated cost for manufacturing somewhere between 0-15% of the manufactured goods depending on where you build it. Research / Invention costs are a little trickier to calculate, but I have a developer blog coming out next week which will describe the cost formula in detail for those looking to update their spreadsheets.

Just for clarification here....

So, this new cost scaling is meant to scale the job cost upwards with increased activity....right?

Yet, you just said the absurdly high costson SiSi are because there is next to no activity on SiSi...right?

Something seems amiss between those two statements. You might want to doublecheck your maths at some point. Maybe.
Josclyn Verreuil
Dark 0rder.
#280 - 2014-07-09 03:20:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Josclyn Verreuil
asteroidjas wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Something to be aware of, pretty much all of the cost values on Singularity are garbage at this point because they are scaled based on activity, of which there is very little on the test server.

Our own simulations from TQ data put the estimated cost for manufacturing somewhere between 0-15% of the manufactured goods depending on where you build it. Research / Invention costs are a little trickier to calculate, but I have a developer blog coming out next week which will describe the cost formula in detail for those looking to update their spreadsheets.

Just for clarification here....

So, this new cost scaling is meant to scale the job cost upwards with increased activity....right?

Yet, you just said the absurdly high costson SiSi are because there is next to no activity on SiSi...right?

Something seems amiss between those two statements. You might want to doublecheck your maths at some point. Maybe.


Try reading just one of the million threads or devblogs. The costs are based on a ratio.


Activity in the System
Activity in the Universe


The costs on SiSi are borked because the denominator of the ratio is impossibly small, therefore even a tiny increase in the numerator radically changes your costs.

Thus, costs scale upwards with increased SYSTEM ACTIVITY, and SiSi costs are borked because of low UNIVERSE ACTIVITY.


Try to be a bit less smug when you are this far out of touch with readily available information, k?