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PI Setup, Will this Single Planet setup work?

Author
Devon Greenbank
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-06-29 08:31:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Devon Greenbank
Objective:Arrow

I intend to use my Lava ->Create Smartfab Units (T3)

This is not a manufacturing planet, the goal is to extract from T0 and produce to T3.



What I understand:Arrow

Louis:
Quote:
4. Place a Silo and a Basic Industrial Facility right next to each of the groups of Extractors. Instead of a Silo, place a Launchpad at one of the groups. Click submit. Once you build a Launchpad the planet immediately gets a Cargo Link in space you can use to import/export.
5. Place an Advanced Industrial Facility right next to the Launchpad and click submit.

Lets pretend theres two lines.

#1 = Metals/heavy metals.
#2 = Non CS Crystals/Felsic Magma


#1 Line -#1Extractor -> #1Launchpad -> Basic Factory-> (? #1Launchpad -> Advanced Facility-> Back to #1 Launchpad)
#2 Line -#2Extractor -> Silo-> #2Basic Factory-> (... ? #1 Launchpad -> Advanced Facility->Back to #1 Launchpad)



I placed in brackets what I'm unsure and questioning.
I become a little bit confused here to as the order when it comes to moving around between the facilities and launchpads.




Extra information:
Arrow

-This will be in high sec.

-This will be with all PI skills max

-This will be set to 3 day extractions.



Questions:Question

1- Will I be needing more than one Storage/Launchpad per line?

2- The advice I read mentioned replacing one silo with a Launchpad, other advice I read suggested replacing ALL silos with launchpads. Should I be using all or only one Launchpad? (Perhaps launchpads can't route to other launchpads while silos can?)

3- It says "advanced Facility next to launch pad."
So Basic Facility#2->Launchpad#1 (On other resource line) -> Advanced facility?

4- Where do I put the resources after the advanced facility? ( Advanced Facility -> Back to Launchpad? )



It kind of started to seem unsure when I realized this point.
#1 Launchpad has incoming from:

#1 Basic Factory
#2 Basic Factory
#1 Extraction Line
#1 Advanced Factory

While no lines should be overloaded and need upgrading. Is it possible that the Launchpad would get overfilled and possibly that the advanced factory should unload somewhere else? Can three factories even filter into the same Launchpad without problems?

My thoughts linger also on would I be needing more than one advanced facility. Where should I be adding separate resources/lines together to one facility or storage?


Basically, I don't have the experience to picture what the final setup will looklike.
Anyone kind enough to finish painting the picture? ^_^

My apologies for not simply looking up the information, but I encounter many urls to pictures that don't work along with information more relevant to stopping at T1. But most importantly, this is my first attempt.

Thank you for your patience.
Devon
Ellon JTC
Quadralien
#2 - 2014-06-29 08:40:26 UTC
it won't be efficient.
Devon Greenbank
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2014-06-29 08:41:12 UTC
What would you suggest changing?

Or rather, if you had a blank slate. What would you prefer to do?
Devon Greenbank
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-06-29 08:48:52 UTC
Perhaps

#1 Line -#1Extractor -> #1Launchpad -> Basic Factory->
#2 Line -#2Extractor -> #2Launchpad -> #2Basic Factory->

Both lines connect from there

#1Launchpad -> Advanced Facility ->#3 Launchpad for finished products?
Devon Greenbank
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2014-06-29 09:25:41 UTC
To make it simpler and encourage responses I'd like to simply ask this.
To make a setup producing from T0 to T3

What setup would you use? :)
Abadayos
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2014-06-29 11:29:36 UTC
extracting in HS is a total waste of your time. It can work however the profit margins will be so small vs time invested you would be better off running a few level 2 missions a week and call it a day. Yes, level 2 missions. HS planets for extraction are THAT bad, especially on long cycles.

If you want to use a HS planet for extraction you really need to 'strip mine' it using 2-6 hour extraction cycles, moving the heads and possibly the whole extractor unit (45k ISK per time you do that remember) and set heads, links etc all over again.

You would get better results going to a lava planet in 0.3 and below (0.4 works too, but if ytour going t be in LS you may as well go as low as you can reasonably safely go) and get in a transport ship with cov ops cloak. If your smart , use the map correctly and do some research, you can in under 5 days make more than a month in HS doing this method.

I do not have exact figures, this is just going by my experience as I set up some experiments for characters I was skilling up for PI that couldn't 'safely' enter and get out of HS at that point in their training plan.

The real trick to PI is to get4-5 extraction planets making P0-P2 products and 1 Factory planet on the lowest tax, smallest barren/temperate planet you can find (HS is safer and makes no difference in this case to Null/LS/WH except for more tax). Find a good planet and use that to 'crunch' your P2's into P3/P4's if you want. It makes decent money and after the first 2-4 weeks of stockpiling from your extraction planets (making 5k+ P2 at each planet should be sufficient), you can kick it off at the factory planet for 24/7 production with a decent buffer in silos/office/station in the system..or PoS.

As I said, your method may work, but the resultant income would be pitiful for the amount of work and effort. Bite teh bullet, train for cov ops cloak and transport ships asap and go nuts is my best advice here....or go into a WH (C1) and just set up shop in there for PI on an alt, shuttle out whenever you have a HS connection. Not the best either but it works
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-06-29 11:30:28 UTC
P0 to P3, probably 5 planets. 4 extracting to P1, one factory planet to P3. Unless you have a nullsec or WH planet, you're probably not going to get enough extraction on a single planet to make a useful amount, if 4 extractors, multiple planets and a launchpad will even fit.
Abadayos
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2014-06-29 11:49:06 UTC
Elena Thiesant wrote:
P0 to P3, probably 5 planets. 4 extracting to P1, one factory planet to P3. Unless you have a nullsec or WH planet, you're probably not going to get enough extraction on a single planet to make a useful amount, if 4 extractors, multiple planets and a launchpad will even fit.



Trick would be to have 2 extractors set up at one time, making a stockpile and running for X amount of time, then swapping to extract the other 2 things needed untill they equal/exceed the original set up, then swap back over again.

This set up takes about 5 days to get 'balanced' sufficiently in a LS colony going from P0-P2 on a poor output world, can be set up to be running full tilt in under 2 days with micromanagement and a half decent planet, quicker still in WH/Null
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#9 - 2014-06-29 12:27:11 UTC
There are many was of doing this, I assume by your plan you are looking at a lower maintenance passive income. But as others have said, this is difficult to pull off in high sec. Not that it will not work, but in high sec you need so many extractor heads out that there is no CPU/power grid left for factories.

While it is true that every planet type has at least 1 P3 it can supply all the base materials for, you will have a very hard time setting up to get them all, and have the CPU/PG left for all the factories you need.

Basically you need to average 6000 units of each raw extracted material (P0) per hour to feed a basic factory, to keep it running. This will keep your P1 factory efficient.
P2 is also fairly easy, you need one basic factory for each material required for the P2. so two basic factories can make enough P1 to feed on advanced factory making P2.
P3 gets a little more complicated. most P3 only require 2 P2 inputs, however, you need two P2 factories for each P2 input to keep the P3 factory running. this is very difficult to pull off, even with a level 5 command center. You can just stick with 2 P2 factories, but then your P3 factory will only be making 50% of it potential output. But even this is difficult in high sec.

To make P3 on a single planet from scratch you need at least 4 extractor Control units, feeding 4 P1 basic factories, which in turn will feed two P2 advanced factories, which in turn will feed a single P3 advanced factory. But the P3 factory will only have 50% output.

To be clear, to make P3 you need 4 different P1 materials, witch go into two different P2 materials.


The issue with this in high sec, is that the extractor control unit extracts nothing on its own, it needs extractor heads placed, and each extractor head uses CPU and Power grid. To keep your P1 factories working you need to average 3000 units of material per 30 minute cycle, or an average of at least 6000 units per hour. It is not possible to extract 6000 units of 4 different P0 raw materials on a single planet in high sec, you would be hard pressed to find a planet in a wormhole that could do this. Not to mention having enough CPU/PG left to run factories.

If you want single planet setups, in high sec the best you can do is P2. Even in low sec, making P3 on a single planet is not good income. This is what I do, in low sec. Your best bet is to make materials used in POS fuel, they have steady demand, and are always a decent profit, especially Enriched uranium, and Coolant. All P2 materials can be produced from scratch on at least 1 planet. For example the only planet type that produces both noble metals, and heavy metals, the two P0 needed for Enriched Uranium. One of the rarer planet types, making Enriched Uranium more valuable. While Coolant can be produced on both gas and storm planets, but fuelblocks require twice as much coolant as Enriched Uranium, so Coolant still sells well.

If you are set on making P3, I recommend robotics. You can produce the consumer electronics on the lava planet, and export that to a barren planet that is producing mechanical parts, and combine them into robotics, which always sell well.

I expect all PI products to jump in price in the next month or so, as when the next expansion comers out. The POS restrictions will be lifted, no more required standing, and will no longer be limited to 0.7 or lower security systems. I expect this will lead to many new POSes going up, which will create a big demand for new POS towers, which will greatly increase the demand for PI materials.
Devon Greenbank
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-06-29 19:14:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Devon Greenbank
Well said bugsy, I feel like I understand my case much better now. Thank you.

I no longer have any intent on aiming towards a T3. As it wouldn't be possible to support all of this on a planet, in combination with the resources being insufficient.


One last question if I may, its continually mentioned I need a set amount of m3 to keep my factories going.
Is this simply to keep it efficient, or would I manually be required to turn the factory back on as it would stop without the required input?

Also, lets assume I stop at T2 as best as I can.
Would you recommend returning the final product into the previous Launchpad or into a new one?
Termy Rockling
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2014-06-30 10:52:34 UTC
The factory does work aslong theres materials, so if either of inputs is dry the factory just stops until it can get more materials when it just stars going again.

When i did P2 you can either run 2ECUs which is inefficient or 1 ECU taking turns on different resources.

So mine planets look bit like

ECU-SF-BIF-LP-AF-LP
Note the LP is same one linked twice.
On the "other side of LP" i have similar setup for other resource but no ecu which i swap every other day or so since im lazy.
Lowsec colony can support roughly 2*3BIFs and 3AFs and can store P2 goods for couple weeks or more, i am lazy so i move P2 from LP to the SFs to wait for time i get to transporting the stuff to local station to wait there until i get big load for freighting out.
Conrad Lionhart
#12 - 2014-07-03 09:34:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Conrad Lionhart
Devon Greenbank wrote:
Well said bugsy, I feel like I understand my case much better now. Thank you.

I no longer have any intent on aiming towards a T3. As it wouldn't be possible to support all of this on a planet, in combination with the resources being insufficient.


One last question if I may, its continually mentioned I need a set amount of m3 to keep my factories going.
Is this simply to keep it efficient, or would I manually be required to turn the factory back on as it would stop without the required input?


Yes it is simply to keep it efficient.
No you do not have to manually turn factories on. If there are enough mats, the factory will use it and run. If there are not enough mats, it will stop. Everything is auto.

Quote:
Also, lets assume I stop at T2 as best as I can.
Would you recommend returning the final product into the previous Launchpad or into a new one?


I think 1 Launch Pad is enough. If the Launch Pad gets full, simply export it.

The total volume of T2 produced is less than the total volume of T1 to make it, and the total volume of T1 produced is less than the total volume of T0 mats required to make it. The mats always take up more volume than the final product (the exception is for T4 products, which can take up more volume than the mats).

What this means is the volume will always decrease, if you have 100% efficiency with no bottleneck.
The Launch Pad will never get full from too many T1 or T0 mats. It will get full from too many T2 products.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#13 - 2014-07-03 10:54:54 UTC
It's inefficient in the same way that training up for and buying a Hulk and then fitting civilian mining lasers to it would be.

Work it from first principles. You're limited by the amount of T0 you can extract and if you need that many factories your heads are going to be limited. Add to that the fact it's HS and most of your factories will be idle most of the time. Given that the ultimate limit is the amount of stuff you can extract from the planet and it's easy to see how 4 x T0 -> T1 and then 1 x T1 -> T2 -> T3 (factory planet) is better.

If your goal is to avoid paying taxes, good luck. You'll find your efficiency is so low on T0 -> T3 planet you might as well have paid the tax in the first place.
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#14 - 2014-07-03 12:08:58 UTC
unless you can make all those factories roll the ovens 24\7 it isn't efficient.
Li Quiao
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2014-07-03 13:45:05 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
It's inefficient in the same way that training up for and buying a Hulk and then fitting civilian mining lasers to it would be.


How would you manage to do that, seeing as the Hulk has no turret hardpoints?
Kira Sunseeker
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#16 - 2014-07-04 20:55:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Kira Sunseeker
So, which of these setups is better (in lowsec):
Run 4 P0->P1 planets that feed a single P1->P3 factory planet
or
Run a bunch of P0->P2 planets?
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#17 - 2014-07-04 21:28:16 UTC
I like to do harvest planets of p0 > p2 and if i need to make something higher grade (p3\p4) I make factory planet.
Conrad Lionhart
#18 - 2014-07-05 08:22:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Conrad Lionhart
Kira Sunseeker wrote:
So, which of these setups is better (in lowsec):
Run 4 P0->P1 planets that feed a single P1->P3 factory planet
or
Run a bunch of P0->P2 planets?


Assuming you have found a nice low sec system with low tax (seeing as it doesn't have that extra 5% to 10% high sec tax), the 4 P0->P1 planets feeding a single P1->P3 factory may be better.

The main advantage of P0->P2 is that it doesn't have to pay any extra tax.
On the other hand, you have to pay extra export and import tax to move those P1 mats to the P3 factory.

In theory, the extra tax you need to pay to make the P3, is what keeps the profitability of P3 in check to make it competitive with your P2 factories.

However, a low tax rate from your low sec system means that any extra tax you pay will be low enough that it shouldn't hurt your profits too much.

This makes the tax, in theory, low enough that you are almost circumventing the extra cost meant to keep P3 profitability in check, so you enjoy better profits for P3.

But this is in theory. There are still other factors like market prices for the P3 item you are making, the actual tax, etc.

The only way to know for sure is to do the calculations.
Kira Sunseeker
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#19 - 2014-07-05 09:21:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Kira Sunseeker
^ Yes. According to my math, a P1-P3 factory planet with 4 P1 extract planets is more profitable.

It has a good profit even in lowsec but I think I'm gonna change my plan and place a PI alt on a WH and create a setup like that, and everytime a HighSec exit appears I'd haul my production to a hub.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#20 - 2014-07-05 11:22:46 UTC
Li Quiao wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
It's inefficient in the same way that training up for and buying a Hulk and then fitting civilian mining lasers to it would be.


How would you manage to do that, seeing as the Hulk has no turret hardpoints?


Confirming that I've never tried. However, you understood my point I assume.
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