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[Crius] Research feedback

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Author
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#221 - 2014-06-23 12:05:38 UTC
Thenin wrote:
now with using only one run from a T1 BPC to invent a T2 BPC it should be possible to allow multi run invention jobs. Is that planned in the near future?



It has been hinted at, as far as that this is kinda the first step in invention and that might be the second... ie put in a 10 run BPC and do 10 invention jobs in a row, but no one has come out and said it as far as I know

I think it is more along the lines of that is what they are envisioning for this post Crius invention overhaul, but they haven't looked f it is possible or feasible yet.
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#222 - 2014-06-23 13:01:11 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Thenin wrote:
now with using only one run from a T1 BPC to invent a T2 BPC it should be possible to allow multi run invention jobs. Is that planned in the near future?



It has been hinted at, as far as that this is kinda the first step in invention and that might be the second... ie put in a 10 run BPC and do 10 invention jobs in a row, but no one has come out and said it as far as I know

I think it is more along the lines of that is what they are envisioning for this post Crius invention overhaul, but they haven't looked f it is possible or feasible yet.


Not for Crius, but possibly for the Invention release later this year. We agree it would be pretty cool.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones

Kaytee Aideron
Tenax Incorporated
#223 - 2014-06-23 15:28:40 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
...

Will be fixed this week.


The output box does in fact say one with no way to manipulate it. Here I just thought it was meaning that I would get one BPC but at max runs if successful.

CCP Nullarbor wrote:
...

Not for Crius, but possibly for the Invention release later this year. We agree it would be pretty cool.


This would be super handy.

I couldn't find where I am told whether the invention was a success or not, is it on one of the columns that are currently off to the right? This isn't a super high priority in my mind as the output can clearly be seen in the hanger obviously.

Are we going to get a resizable industry window? Or maybe at least a way to configure what columns we want to see (haven't checked if this is possible)?

Another minor issue I've noticed is that the Industry UI doesn't update when selecting the materials hanger but rather only updates after selecting the output hanger. Is this intended?

Let me end on some positive feedback. I really do appreciate what has been put forth so far. Being able to filter using the search box, by facility, by hanger, and all the different combinations of this I see as being extremely positive changes. The fact that my runs remember where their materials are and where their outputs should be placed per blueprint (at least this seems to be the case) is also greatly appreciated.
Pic'n dor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#224 - 2014-06-23 17:58:05 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Pic'n dor wrote:
I could have if it was possible :
From : https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Research_and_manufacturing

The ME scale of BP :

ML0 - 10%
ML1 - 5%
ML2 - 3.3%
ML3 - 2.5%
ML10 - 0.9%
ML50 - 0.2%

So, you can only get ME0%/5%/7%/8%, but i got a stock pile of ME6% ...

IMHO :
1- Rounding formulas gone wrong
2-Intended feature to make things a little bit harder for us.. And a tiny lie in the devblog...


preME2 > postME6 is a loss of BP efficiency...


6% BPC is ME4

Please use terminology so we all understand please

Also, what was the BPC on TQ prior to conversion

what bpc, what ME/PE etc. the more info the better


Come on Waste % won't exist anymore...

6% BP is postML6 since it is not waste but impriovement.
So 6% improvement is a 0.94 multiplier on the material needed.

So i got a stock pile of ME2 (3.3% waste) that was converted to a stock pile of 6% BPC

COUCOU TOUCHE TOUCHE

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#225 - 2014-06-23 22:02:30 UTC
Remember waste is a multiplier on top, rather than a divisor. Changes the way the equation works means the same numbers one way don't match the other way also.
Anyway, don't whine to much over conversions, it's only a change over system. Anything copied post patch will be starting from fresh. On a vastly vastly improved system. A couple of slightly cracked eggs are worth the overall gain.
Arana Mirelin
Te'Rava Industries
#226 - 2014-06-24 22:25:46 UTC
One thing I noticed which I haven't seen discussed is related to reverse engineering. There is a "material" change which I believe will cause more confusion than it's worth, unless there is presently a bug.

On TQ, reverse engineering requires datacores, the wrecked / malfunctioning / intact whatever, and a hybrid tech decryptor for each specific race. When testing on SiSi, I noticed instead, the decryptor has been changed to a 'subsystem data interface', with a similar image to the interfaces used in T2 invention. However, unlike the T2 interfaces, the subsystem interfaces were consumed as part of the RE process, as the decryptors were previously. This caught me off guard at first, and I expect could cause confusion with one of the four interfaces behaving differently from the rest.
Trin Javidan
Caymen Labs
#227 - 2014-06-25 14:49:28 UTC
Doing ME on Station part bpo's (parts to assemble the 4 racial stations/outposts) is currently on tranquility pointless as it doesnt effect the requird materials. May i hope this still going to be like this? In other words; as a stationbuilder, is my current station stock going to get devalued due the new ME changes and/or can i get a reimbursement for this if this is going to happen?
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#228 - 2014-06-25 15:08:49 UTC
Trin Javidan wrote:
In other words; as a stationbuilder, is my current station stock going to get devalued due the new ME changes and/or can i get a reimbursement for this if this is going to happen?

yes, no
Laurana Storm
#229 - 2014-06-25 17:51:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Laurana Storm
1. Item takes less materials to produce in rapid equipment assembly array then in equipment assembly array

2. you broke mechanics.... 300/200 max run copy gives me a 1 run copy :( for inventing, for manufacturing i can make 300

3. all further test suspended do to the fact my pos ceaps disapearing, altho all pos modules are still visible in industry tab they are not listed in corp assets.
Trin Javidan
Caymen Labs
#230 - 2014-06-25 20:42:52 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Trin Javidan wrote:
In other words; as a stationbuilder, is my current station stock going to get devalued due the new ME changes and/or can i get a reimbursement for this if this is going to happen?

yes, no


That would not be nice. People are prevented from making isk on previous changed items (bij refining restrictions ect), so the other way around would be nice too :). @ 8 stations with 7b in production losses each, thats going to hurt Cry
Dimaxx
STARship Builders
#231 - 2014-06-27 20:42:57 UTC
Why increased the production time of capital ships? +11% minerals for capital components, +some components is increased. Now more and more building time.

Obelisk bpc

TQ:
ME=4/TE=2
Production time 12d 20h 08m (with my skills/implants 9d 20h 29m)

Sing
ME=8/TE=14
Production time 14d 14h 17m (with my skills/implants 11d 05h 01m), and in the industry window 11d 11h 12m.

Additionally ~2 days? In the devblog has been said about the increase of the materials, but says nothing about increasing the building time of cap ships.
Dread Nanana
Doomheim
#232 - 2014-06-27 23:26:00 UTC
Quote:
Invention times are now half T2 build time plus T1 copy and invent time, for the relevant quantities, so the two roughly line up


This is quite bad for inventions. So now I need 2+ toons to install inventions for every 1 toon that does manufacturing?

In a small corp of a few people, current invention lines are not backlogged more than about an hour. Which means 2h until invention at any time, generally, 0 wait time.

With new times, there is no wait time but throughput is reduced to 1 per 4-8h? So if inventions are 50%, you expect everyone to wait 8h until they can click something again?? Have you guys actually though through this based on <100% success rates?

Either make invention success rates 100% with skills going to reduce datacores,


  • each datacore becomes 100 or 1000 datacores
  • multiply everything by same number and decrease volumes
  • invention skills now reduce datacore usage, instead of invention success rates. Same result but now balanced with manufacturing. 10 inventions one day become 10 manufacturing jobs the next. Instead of most manufacturing jobs being idled.


or go back to 2h inventions for modules until you can fix inventions next time around.

Copying has never been a bottleneck for inventions anyway. 1 copying/T1 manufacturing toon can make enough copies for 5 invention/T2 characters.
Anita1
Meinungsfreiheit
#233 - 2014-06-28 20:54:41 UTC
so right now on tranq, i copy the same bpo like on test server,

on tranq with a waiting time of 13 days it takes me 24 days in total to get the copies

on the test server without waiting time and with 80% duration blabla, it takes me 25 days to get the copies

why?
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#234 - 2014-06-30 10:33:31 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Greyscale
Dimaxx wrote:
Why increased the production time of capital ships? +11% minerals for capital components, +some components is increased. Now more and more building time.

Obelisk bpc

TQ:
ME=4/TE=2
Production time 12d 20h 08m (with my skills/implants 9d 20h 29m)

Sing
ME=8/TE=14
Production time 14d 14h 17m (with my skills/implants 11d 05h 01m), and in the industry window 11d 11h 12m.

Additionally ~2 days? In the devblog has been said about the increase of the materials, but says nothing about increasing the building time of cap ships.


This is discussed at length in this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=345753

We're trying to move all the blueprint numbers around so they actually make a coherent picture rather than being ad-hoc. This means some numbers have gone up, yes. We're pretty confident that the market will easily adapt.

Dread Nanana wrote:
Quote:
Invention times are now half T2 build time plus T1 copy and invent time, for the relevant quantities, so the two roughly line up


This is quite bad for inventions. So now I need 2+ toons to install inventions for every 1 toon that does manufacturing?

In a small corp of a few people, current invention lines are not backlogged more than about an hour. Which means 2h until invention at any time, generally, 0 wait time.

With new times, there is no wait time but throughput is reduced to 1 per 4-8h? So if inventions are 50%, you expect everyone to wait 8h until they can click something again?? Have you guys actually though through this based on <100% success rates?

Either make invention success rates 100% with skills going to reduce datacores,


  • each datacore becomes 100 or 1000 datacores
  • multiply everything by same number and decrease volumes
  • invention skills now reduce datacore usage, instead of invention success rates. Same result but now balanced with manufacturing. 10 inventions one day become 10 manufacturing jobs the next. Instead of most manufacturing jobs being idled.


or go back to 2h inventions for modules until you can fix inventions next time around.

Copying has never been a bottleneck for inventions anyway. 1 copying/T1 manufacturing toon can make enough copies for 5 invention/T2 characters.


The purpose of doing this is precisely so that you *don't* need different numbers of characters on the research and build times. Please do note that copy times for modules have gone up pretty considerably. Assuming that research jobs are interchangeable (cross-skilling from copying to invention or vice versa should be easy), you will need approximately one research character for every manufacturing character, before bonuses.
Marc Rene
Doomheim
#235 - 2014-06-30 19:51:14 UTC
I've tried inventing T2 Warrior drones, each run is only taking 1-run off of the T1 BPC (which I was expecting after reading the forums) but is only giving me a 1-run T2 BPC - is this intentional or a bug that needs be ironed out?

If intentional it is going to make T2 ammo, drones and modules very expensive to invent!

Sigras
Conglomo
#236 - 2014-07-01 01:29:00 UTC
Dread Nanana
Doomheim
#237 - 2014-07-01 02:09:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Dread Nanana
CCP Greyscale wrote:

The purpose of doing this is precisely so that you *don't* need different numbers of characters on the research and build times. Please do note that copy times for modules have gone up pretty considerably. Assuming that research jobs are interchangeable (cross-skilling from copying to invention or vice versa should be easy), you will need approximately one research character for every manufacturing character, before bonuses.


T2 invention characters tend to be the same as T2 manufacturing characters. They need about the same skills except for few basic ones. As for copying, no, the skill sets for inventions are much more extensive than required for T1 copying. Maybe for T2 copying, but that does not impact invention corps at all.

OK, here are the numbers for POS,

TQ:

125mm railgun invention

  • copying time - 20x maxrun - 2.5 days, 1 slot
  • invention - 20 jobs, 10 at a time, 2.5h
  • manufacturing - 10 T2 BPCs - about 12h


425mm rail invention


  • copying time - 20x maxrun - 2.5 days, 1 slot
  • invention - 20 jobs, 10 at a time, 2.5h
  • manufacturing - 2 days


So 1 character can copy for 10 invention characters. OR, 1 character alone, can copy for themselves and invent at same time if they manage their jobs properly (invention when online, some slots copy when offline). In general, you can invent more than you can build so you can invent some longer jobs like ships from time to time.


Test Server:

125mm railgun invention

  • copying time - 20x 1 run - 6h, 1 slot
  • invention - 20 jobs, 10 at a time, 8h !!, or 2 days unless someone plays 4+h at a time.
  • manufacturing - 10 T2 BPCs - 4h


425mm rail invention


  • copying time - 20x maxrun - 6 hours, 1 slot
  • invention - 20 jobs, 10 at a time, 14h !!, or 2 days (or 1 if you play 8h at a time!!!)
  • T2 manufacturing - 12h !!


So what is happening here? T2 inventions are heavily nerfed in favour of T2 BPO owners. And invention characters can no longer even fill their own manufacturing queues because of 50% success rate for modules. T2 BPO owners now can produce 2x as many modules in same time period (thanks to unlimited run BPOs) and invention characters can't invent more than 10 jobs per day. Since invention success is about 50% for modules, that is effectively a 400% boost for T2 BPO owners over inventions.

As for copying, as you can see, it has never ever been an issue for normal modules. And with the upcoming changes, it is even less of an issue, irrespective of what happens to per run copy times (since you will need 1 run not max run for 10 run T2 BPCs).

Typical game play for invention characters is to login, install some inventions, do other things (planetary interactions, hauling, missions, exploration, sometimes even PvP-like things like WH stuff), then after an hour, install another batch of inventions and manufacturing. Then maybe log off.

So, unless this is meant as a boost for T2 BPO owners and a nerf for inventions, in my opinion, please increase T2 module production back to where it was along with T2 copy times (remove boost for T2 BPOs), reduce invention times for modules back to base 2h allowing people to invent 10 T2 BPCs hence filling their manufacturing queues (drop neft for inventions).

I hope you can see that with the changes as is, T2 invention runners will not be able to produce as much as they currently are (and have 50+% of their manufacturing lines sitting idle 100% of the time) and T2 BPO owners will produce heck of a lot more even if they don't copy their BPOs.

Currently on TQ, T2 BPOs have advantage of efficiency (they can just install 30 day manufacturing jobs), while invention characters can respond better to the market. That balance will be severely impacted by T2 manufacturing and invention time changes as they are on sisi.
Bitter Fremlin
Heimatar Enhanced Fleet Industries
#238 - 2014-07-01 09:30:35 UTC
Dread Nanana wrote:

  • invention - 20 jobs, 10 at a time, 8h !!, or 2 days unless someone plays 4+h at a time.


  • Sorry -- did I miss the memo about only being allowed to log in once per day?

    Quote:
    So what is happening here?


    An obvious demonstration that an inefficient workflow is less productive an efficient one.

    Crius will bring changes. Those managing Tech II production streams will have to reassess and rearrange. Those who can adjust will profit while those who try and jam a pre-Crius system into the post-Crius industrial landscape will not.

    Interesting times...
    CCP Greyscale
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #239 - 2014-07-01 10:51:29 UTC
    - Starbase bonuses mess with the balance somewhat; this is intentional
    - Yes, there are issues with throughput and online/offline time currently, this is something we are looking to address in future invention changes
    Laendra
    Universalis Imperium
    The Bastion
    #240 - 2014-07-01 12:41:30 UTC
    Sigras wrote:



    Still? that fix should have been in a week ago, at least.