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[Crius] Industry Landscape feedback

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Michael Ignis Archangel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#141 - 2014-06-25 16:50:33 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Ezeus wrote:
We did some test on SISI to produce ships from Null-sec amarr outposts. The material needed were reduced. It seems the Amarr outpost is applying a ME and PE bonus to production, reducing the amount of material needed. Is this intended or is this a bug ?



According to the dev blog and probably 50 dev replies over the past 4 weeks, it is most certainly working as intended


I might be mistaken, but he might be referring to the very large (30% in the outpost I tried) discount it was giving. Is this related to the overly high discount given in the POS as mentioned a few replies above?

I know Amarr outposts were supposed to have some material bonus, but it seems to be mirroring the time bonus.
Ezeus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#142 - 2014-06-26 13:21:44 UTC
Michael Ignis Archangel wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Ezeus wrote:
We did some test on SISI to produce ships from Null-sec amarr outposts. The material needed were reduced. It seems the Amarr outpost is applying a ME and PE bonus to production, reducing the amount of material needed. Is this intended or is this a bug ?



According to the dev blog and probably 50 dev replies over the past 4 weeks, it is most certainly working as intended


I might be mistaken, but he might be referring to the very large (30% in the outpost I tried) discount it was giving. Is this related to the overly high discount given in the POS as mentioned a few replies above?

I know Amarr outposts were supposed to have some material bonus, but it seems to be mirroring the time bonus.



Yes I am referring to the 30% discount applied to the material in amarr outposts. I have seen a lot of dev-post on the POS, but no-one seem to be discussing the outpost (to my knowledge), other than the minmattar refining bonus.
If someone has relevant information, coming from a dev about the amarr outpost please link it !
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#143 - 2014-06-27 16:36:43 UTC
Ezeus wrote:
Michael Ignis Archangel wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Ezeus wrote:
We did some test on SISI to produce ships from Null-sec amarr outposts. The material needed were reduced. It seems the Amarr outpost is applying a ME and PE bonus to production, reducing the amount of material needed. Is this intended or is this a bug ?



According to the dev blog and probably 50 dev replies over the past 4 weeks, it is most certainly working as intended


I might be mistaken, but he might be referring to the very large (30% in the outpost I tried) discount it was giving. Is this related to the overly high discount given in the POS as mentioned a few replies above?

I know Amarr outposts were supposed to have some material bonus, but it seems to be mirroring the time bonus.



Yes I am referring to the 30% discount applied to the material in amarr outposts. I have seen a lot of dev-post on the POS, but no-one seem to be discussing the outpost (to my knowledge), other than the minmattar refining bonus.
If someone has relevant information, coming from a dev about the amarr outpost please link it !



If you read the thread that has the outstanding bugs, that one is there as well as being discussed.
Toguri Iva
Mahe Ratu
#144 - 2014-06-28 15:37:05 UTC
Manufacturing costs in Sisi (approximately) for a 4 runs Heretic BPC:

Highsec: 6.900.000 ISK
Low Sec: 3.500.000 ISK
Null (Gallente outpost): 500.000 ISK
Null (Amarr outpost): 390.000 ISK + less materials
Null (NPC conquerable station): 144.500 ISK

I don't understand this, manufacturing slots are going to be cheaper in conquerable 0.0 stations?.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#145 - 2014-06-30 10:28:16 UTC
Toguri Iva wrote:
Manufacturing costs in Sisi (approximately) for a 4 runs Heretic BPC:

Highsec: 6.900.000 ISK
Low Sec: 3.500.000 ISK
Null (Gallente outpost): 500.000 ISK
Null (Amarr outpost): 390.000 ISK + less materials
Null (NPC conquerable station): 144.500 ISK

I don't understand this, manufacturing slots are going to be cheaper in conquerable 0.0 stations?.


I'm not sure exactly how the numbers on SiSi are working right now, but as detailed at length in the costing blog, costs scale based on how busy a system is. Costs are per-system, not per-station-type.
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#146 - 2014-06-30 10:35:44 UTC
I noticed that the manufacturing times have changed a lot for some blueprints.

For example ammunition blueprints currently in TQ are all four (4) minutes per batch of 100 hundred units. Where as in Sisi they are 4 minutes for small ammo (S size, rocket, light missiles), 9 minutes for medium (M size, H and HA missiles) and 14 minutes for large (L size, cruise, torp). All numbers without skills/implants/w.e. effects.

The same type of change was done also to combat, EW and logistics drones.

On the other hand I can now produce some T2 modules more than four times faster than before.

Manufacturing times for ships seem to be unchanged.

What has prompted these changes? What is the problem that this change is trying to solve? And why these particular numbers? Why not for example keep the medium ammo mfg times the same, increase large ammo times and decrease small ammo times.

Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#147 - 2014-06-30 10:40:05 UTC
Sable Moran wrote:
I noticed that the manufacturing times have changed a lot for some blueprints.

For example ammunition blueprints currently in TQ are all four (4) minutes per batch of 100 hundred units. Where as in Sisi they are 4 minutes for small ammo (S size, rocket, light missiles), 9 minutes for medium (M size, H and HA missiles) and 14 minutes for large (L size, cruise, torp). All numbers without skills/implants/w.e. effects.

The same type of change was done also to combat, EW and logistics drones.

On the other hand I can now produce some T2 modules more than four times faster than before.

Manufacturing times for ships seem to be unchanged.

What has prompted these changes? What is the problem that this change is trying to solve? And why these particular numbers? Why not for example keep the medium ammo mfg times the same, increase large ammo times and decrease small ammo times.


See this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=345753
Regan Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2014-06-30 13:23:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Regan Rotineque
i noticed that fuel block production times have increased from 9 hrs for 12,000 blocks to more tha n 50 hours per 12,000 blocks (300 runs)

For people doing logistics and is a massive change. im now tying up build slots for days to accomplish somethng that took a few hours before.

I read the post mentioned above but i think that since the only reason to copy a fuel block bpo is to do multiple runs at a time no invention it seems a bit strong these changes to buiuld time. Can you relook at fuel blocks as a special case?
Toguri Iva
Mahe Ratu
#149 - 2014-06-30 14:31:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Toguri Iva
CCP Greyscale wrote:
I'm not sure exactly how the numbers on SiSi are working right now, but as detailed at length in the costing blog, costs scale based on how busy a system is. Costs are per-system, not per-station-type.


So, May it be possible a null system with high production taxes?. Is the production taxes base the same in null, low and high, or is greater in high an low sec?. I mean base taxes in a system, when no one have started yet any production job.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#150 - 2014-06-30 16:32:43 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

-- The multi-run discount is not currently being capped; this is expected to see further balancing.

so if i understand this correctly CCP wants to encourage longer jobs (build multiple ships) via reduced costs. However this only really works if you are using BPOs, right? I mean if i want to build 20 slicers i have 20x 1 run BPCs and run into the worst case scenario.

Are there any plans to be able to concatenate several BPCs into one long job? Otherwise i don't really see why the cost reduction based on job length is there in the first place. I bet most jobs are run from BPCs and not BPOs.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#151 - 2014-06-30 18:15:54 UTC
Toguri Iva wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
I'm not sure exactly how the numbers on SiSi are working right now, but as detailed at length in the costing blog, costs scale based on how busy a system is. Costs are per-system, not per-station-type.


So, May it be possible a null system with high production taxes?. Is the production taxes base the same in null, low and high, or is greater in high an low sec?. I mean base taxes in a system, when no one have started yet any production job.


There's no variation in base numbers between different systems. Some facilities (including station types) do give bonuses to that cost, but in a non-station system (probably building in a starbase in that case) the base numbers are the same everywhere.

Bienator II wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

-- The multi-run discount is not currently being capped; this is expected to see further balancing.

so if i understand this correctly CCP wants to encourage longer jobs (build multiple ships) via reduced costs. However this only really works if you are using BPOs, right? I mean if i want to build 20 slicers i have 20x 1 run BPCs and run into the worst case scenario.

Are there any plans to be able to concatenate several BPCs into one long job? Otherwise i don't really see why the cost reduction based on job length is there in the first place. I bet most jobs are run from BPCs and not BPOs.


We're iterating on this right now, stay tuned for more info.
Toguri Iva
Mahe Ratu
#152 - 2014-06-30 19:23:42 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
There's no variation in base numbers between different systems. Some facilities (including station types) do give bonuses to that cost, but in a non-station system (probably building in a starbase in that case) the base numbers are the same everywhere.


Ok, thanks for the info :)
Captain Davy
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#153 - 2014-06-30 21:18:15 UTC
There is any word on what the Material Efficiency Skill will do on crius?? right now it doesnt do anything on SISI.

There is a chance that the SP will be refunded?
Toguri Iva
Mahe Ratu
#154 - 2014-06-30 22:45:20 UTC
The new industry UI allows you to compare the production costs in different facilities in your region or facilities in stations you've BPO or BPC. I'm comparing the new system cost index bar and there is a 10% tax in NPC stations and 0% tax in player outposts. Tax is different in all stations in the region, maybe this is because there are many players testing the new system in this region (Delve).
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#155 - 2014-07-01 09:59:00 UTC
Captain Davy wrote:
There is any word on what the Material Efficiency Skill will do on crius?? right now it doesnt do anything on SISI.

There is a chance that the SP will be refunded?


We're still finalizing this, but we're very keen to have something for it to do that doesn't involve reimbursement.
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#156 - 2014-07-01 10:18:13 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Captain Davy wrote:
There is any word on what the Material Efficiency Skill will do on crius?? right now it doesnt do anything on SISI.

There is a chance that the SP will be refunded?


We're still finalizing this, but we're very keen to have something for it to do that doesn't involve reimbursement.


What really is there left? That skill is was one of the longest and literally the most essential to train for any industrialist under the old system. One of the first, that any new industry toon trains.

You'd be hard pressed to find a replacement role, that's not already covered by other skills, which is equal to the 1.5 weeks it takes to train.

Really Advanced Mass Production? (+5 slots)

Advanced Industry? (25% time saving)

Production Expert? (ME bonus multiplier to multiple runs)
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#157 - 2014-07-01 10:53:28 UTC
Sentient Blade wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Captain Davy wrote:
There is any word on what the Material Efficiency Skill will do on crius?? right now it doesnt do anything on SISI.

There is a chance that the SP will be refunded?


We're still finalizing this, but we're very keen to have something for it to do that doesn't involve reimbursement.


What really is there left? That skill is was one of the longest and literally the most essential to train for any industrialist under the old system. One of the first, that any new industry toon trains.

You'd be hard pressed to find a replacement role, that's not already covered by other skills, which is equal to the 1.5 weeks it takes to train.

Really Advanced Mass Production? (+5 slots)

Advanced Industry? (25% time saving)

Production Expert? (ME bonus multiplier to multiple runs)


It's also (IIRC) a second-tier, rank 3 skill, which *should* be an advanced, optional, comparatively-low-impact skill. Yes, it's essential currently, but no, it's very definitely *not* going to be turned into something equally essential, because its current form is a huge accessibility problem for industry and we're not going to keep it that way just to keep it consistent with the old design :)
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#158 - 2014-07-01 10:59:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
So a refund. Lol

Because everything else would turn it into "a huge accessibility problem for industry". Roll

By the way, since when does CCP think that lengthy specialization is a problem? Roll
If I recall your stance correctly, specialization in mining and reprocessing is supposed to take a lot of time. How is industry different? And do not think about giving me that the ME skill keeps players out of the industry. It is just as essential for the activity as any reprocessing skill in order to be absolutely efficient. Even if you don't have ME V, you can still produce with lots of profits if you buy minerals for cheap prices - and this actually forces encourages players to think about what they do, how they do it and how it's done most efficiently even with lackluster skills. And it shows them that every activity involves effort in EVE.

You want to take that away?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#159 - 2014-07-01 11:48:50 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
So a refund. Lol

Because everything else would turn it into "a huge accessibility problem for industry". Roll

By the way, since when does CCP think that lengthy specialization is a problem? Roll
If I recall your stance correctly, specialization in mining and reprocessing is supposed to take a lot of time. How is industry different? And do not think about giving me that the ME skill keeps players out of the industry. It is just as essential for the activity as any reprocessing skill in order to be absolutely efficient. Even if you don't have ME V, you can still produce with lots of profits if you buy minerals for cheap prices - and this actually forces encourages players to think about what they do, how they do it and how it's done most efficiently even with lackluster skills. And it shows them that every activity involves effort in EVE.

You want to take that away?


At its current TQ power level, it's not a specialization, it's a requirement to be competitive, and it's a completely arbitrary requirement. It's not even interacting with other systems, it's just an artificial wastage that's imposed solely so the skill can take it away again.

We're looking to find a bonus we can give it that's in line with what you'd expect from the skill's attributes. We're not going to make it as powerful as it's previously been. We don't want to give out a refund.
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#160 - 2014-07-01 11:58:41 UTC
Opportunity Cost (Rank 3)

10% reduction in wardec costs against indy corps which think ore is free just because they've mined it.