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Crime & Punishment

 
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Bring me the head of a CFC titan pilot!

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Arkady Romanov
Whole Squid
#641 - 2014-06-24 10:53:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Arkady Romanov
Eyrun Mangeiri wrote:
How much does CFC rely on renters anyway? Are they essential to you or are they just a nice thing to have? I play EVE since 6 month, but when I'm looking at old Sov maps Rental empires seem to be a rather new thing and Goons are much older than that and your empire is also older.


They're essential in the sense that we need them to be able to afford the super/titan arms race that is going on between us and the guys in the East.

Plus I like losing ships hand over fist and I need my sweet, sweet welfare cheque.

We were actually the last major bloc to implement them (the Russians and N-blah groups and PL have done it for ages), mostly because we had an ingrained hatred of the serf system, dating back to the days where BoB would demand that their serfs pay them, but also act as meat shields in SOV conflicts.

These days renters only rent. They're not expected to protect the SOV, and we're not expected to protect them from random roams. Very occasionally, if they prove unusually competent or resilient, sometimes the corp is absorbed into a CFC alliance and enjoys all the benefits that entails.

Whole Squid: Get Inked.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#642 - 2014-06-24 10:57:21 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Just look at the way Null is being held, hundreds of bootstrappy young Randian supergods. It's totally not being held by multi-thousand strong groups of players, bound together by common social activities and groupings.

The evidence is right there guys, just build a graph and study it out!

It's actually a good idea.


it is actually a good idea, so good in fact that certain powerblocs agreed to not do it to each other.

That leaves it up to you guys.

Hop to it, the last ones left me about 40 garde IIs, and 10 fighters on an ihub, but I really could do with a delivery of dragonflies, and some more garde IIs
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#643 - 2014-06-24 11:33:33 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Just look at the way Null is being held, hundreds of bootstrappy young Randian supergods. It's totally not being held by multi-thousand strong groups of players, bound together by common social activities and groupings.

The evidence is right there guys, just build a graph and study it out!

It's actually a good idea.

in other words the best you can aspire to is to be a renter
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#644 - 2014-06-24 12:04:01 UTC
Eyrun Mangeiri wrote:
How much does CFC rely on renters anyway? Are they essential to you or are they just a nice thing to have? I play EVE since 6 month, but when I'm looking at old Sov maps Rental empires seem to be a rather new thing and Goons are much older than that and your empire is also older.

You make more from renting a region than you do from towering every profitable moon in it. I don't think it's the majority of our income, but it's still hundreds of billions a month. It's significant, but we lived without them until August 2013, if that helps you get a vague perspective.
Arkady Romanov wrote:
We were actually the last major bloc to implement them (the Russians and N-blah groups and PL have done it for ages), mostly because we had an ingrained hatred of the serf system, dating back to the days where BoB would demand that their serfs pay them, but also act as meat shields in SOV conflicts.

These days renters only rent. They're not expected to protect the SOV, and we're not expected to protect them from random roams. Very occasionally, if they prove unusually competent or resilient, sometimes the corp is absorbed into a CFC alliance and enjoys all the benefits that entails.

Yeah, though the part missing here is how their renters/serfs were their allies. Instead of saying "yo FCON, join us and together we can rule the galaxy" they would say "yo FCON, you're going to pay us to live in your space, also be our meatshields lol".

People who call GSF's allies 'pets' are rather ignorant of how the term came to be.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#645 - 2014-06-24 12:05:51 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Just look at the way Null is being held, hundreds of bootstrappy young Randian supergods. It's totally not being held by multi-thousand strong groups of players, bound together by common social activities and groupings.

The evidence is right there guys, just build a graph and study it out!

It's actually a good idea.

in other words the best you can aspire to is to be a renter

Actually, one can interpret his blog as saying simply "I am less relevant even than a renter, welp".

Then the voice takes over and says "shhh, just keep making graphs of all the money you are throwing away, it will work, I promise".

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Arkady Romanov
Whole Squid
#646 - 2014-06-24 12:06:49 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Yeah, though the part missing here is how their renters/serfs were their allies. Instead of saying "yo FCON, join us and together we can rule the galaxy" they would say "yo FCON, you're going to pay us to live in your space, also be our meatshields lol".

People who call GSF's allies 'pets' are rather ignorant of how the term came to be.


That was deliberately omitted because from a GSF perspective, those guys weren't "allies" by any definition we would use. But its good you explained the BoB mentality.

Whole Squid: Get Inked.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#647 - 2014-06-24 12:34:58 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:

Actually, one can interpret his blog as saying simply "I am less relevant even than a renter, welp".

gevlon I can get you a deal on some fine PBLRD space all you have to do is ask (and pay the rent)
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#648 - 2014-06-24 13:06:27 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
[quote=BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie]
to do harm to goonswarm you need to be able to organize people to work together effectively towards a common goal. gevlon, with his autistic hatred of socials, is uniquely unable to understand any aspect of that. he can only understand money, and self-promotion. he'd never go for something where he's giving credit to the rest of his team: his "GRR Project" is all about Gevlon personally taking credit for as much of other people's work as he possibly can by supplying the cheapest, easiest to obtain element of any organization in eve.


I originally thought that General Lemming was Gevlon's less dense alter-ego who actually understood that just giving minor amounts of money to fund wardecs was nowhere near enough to start the kind of movement Gevlon wanted. It wasn't until recently, when Lemmings exploded, that I thought about it again because he was still calling his donation to Marmite the "GRR Project", I guess it wasn't him after all..

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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#649 - 2014-06-24 13:54:37 UTC
Elizabeth Norn wrote:
I originally thought that General Lemming was Gevlon's less dense alter-ego who actually understood that just giving minor amounts of money to fund wardecs was nowhere near enough to start the kind of movement Gevlon wanted. It wasn't until recently, when Lemmings exploded, that I thought about it again because he was still calling his donation to Marmite the "GRR Project", I guess it wasn't him after all..
General Lemming was the alt of Tora Bushido. Lemmings was started up because Marmite couldn't openly recruit and keep their efficiency up at the same time. The only way to hold efficiency at the level they want is to boot anyone that causes losses and constrain kills to low risk high payout kills. Not exactly friendly with "recruit everyone" policy.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

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Tora Bushido
The Marmite Mercenaries
BLACKFLAG.
#650 - 2014-06-24 14:42:00 UTC
Lemmings had the same advantage as RvB. They got nice kills in cheap ships. Their numbers was their strength. And even if they lost an entire fleet, it was still worth the good fights. You saw it with BAW vs Lemmings. BAW killed many Lemmings, but then they lost a pod and Loki.... BOOM! war report eve again, which motivated more Lemmings to join. It also gave me the option to let anyone with 3M sp etc in. No rules, just kill and have fun. I enjoyed Lemmings, but running two alliances just doesn't work. Lol The rest is as Lucas wrote above.

DELETE THE WEAK, ADAPT OR DIE !

Meta Gaming Level VII, Psycho Warfare Level X, Smack Talk Level VII.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#651 - 2014-06-24 15:13:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Tora Bushido wrote:
Lemmings had the same advantage as RvB. They got nice kills in cheap ships. Their numbers was their strength. And even if they lost an entire fleet, it was still worth the good fights. You saw it with BAW vs Lemmings. BAW killed many Lemmings, but then they lost a pod and Loki.... BOOM! war report eve again, which motivated more Lemmings to join. It also gave me the option to let anyone with 3M sp etc in. No rules, just kill and have fun. I enjoyed Lemmings, but running two alliances just doesn't work. Lol The rest is as Lucas wrote above.
You're right, that can be an advantage, but a problem there is that newer pilots can't afford a loss, even small scale. I could throw away 10 lokis right now without batting an eyelid, and lot of people could do the same, but a 3m sp pilot losing a battlecruiser can be crippled. If Gevlon had put half of the isk he put into wars into SRP (even if just partial) instead, and you'd designed more fits for your members to use to learn to effectively fit cheap you'd probably have held off the stagnation of the recruitment at least a little longer.

It was certainly an interesting concept to see but you're right, running two alliances was probably too tough a call. An alliance like Lemmings would need full attention to keep it rolling along at full steam.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Pete Butcher
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#652 - 2014-06-24 15:43:32 UTC
Tora Bushido wrote:
Lemmings had the same advantage as RvB. They got nice kills in cheap ships. Their numbers was their strength. And even if they lost an entire fleet, it was still worth the good fights. You saw it with BAW vs Lemmings. BAW killed many Lemmings, but then they lost a pod and Loki.... BOOM! war report eve again, which motivated more Lemmings to join. It also gave me the option to let anyone with 3M sp etc in. No rules, just kill and have fun. I enjoyed Lemmings, but running two alliances just doesn't work. Lol The rest is as Lucas wrote above.


You mean all you wanted was fun, instead of holy crusading against goons? But that's against Gevlon philosophy. How could he allow that?

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Pete Butcher
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#653 - 2014-06-24 15:47:44 UTC
On a more serious note, congrats on milking him so long. Keep it up - we're getting quality entertainment here :-)

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Tora Bushido
The Marmite Mercenaries
BLACKFLAG.
#654 - 2014-06-24 15:54:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tora Bushido
Indeed, running an alliance like Marmites is hard work. Lemmings was a fun relaxed thing to do. We had SRP, which was paid by the richer members and industrials who supported it. We did have basic fittings people could use. If we can get new financers for the wars and more fc's running fleets, I am happy to restart it all :). Not because its all evil Goonies etc, but because it was fun as hell \\Twisted//.

Right now Marmites still has 19 CFC alliances perma decced. We also enjoy shooting them and its a nice way for us to get loot and tears. Gevlon hired us for the job, we enjoy doing it.... win-win.

Marmite doesn't do politics. We have many players, who have chars in a lot of 00 alliances. As long as they don't use it to set up their alliance mates in Marmites or their 00 mates, we are ok with it. See us as your summer holiday from 00 CVA's.

DELETE THE WEAK, ADAPT OR DIE !

Meta Gaming Level VII, Psycho Warfare Level X, Smack Talk Level VII.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#655 - 2014-06-24 16:44:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
The real tragedy in us selling the POCOs, was it happened before doc know got to try his "goon busting" RR-Drake fleet against us, with shield arbitrator support.

Surely, the counter to massed Ishtars with senties, is slow easily-tracked ships, with TDs as EWAR.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Radric Davids
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#656 - 2014-06-24 17:09:38 UTC
An alliance founded by hatred is probably going to attract a lot of wackos and very few smart reasonable people. When that group founded on hatred of an extremely powerful alliance inevitably makes zero headway in their crusade while the average line member loses ships and has no visible impact or personal gain - there are going to be huge morale problems.
Xenuria
#657 - 2014-06-24 17:48:11 UTC
Radric Davids wrote:
An alliance founded by hatred is probably going to attract a lot of wackos and very few smart reasonable people. When that group founded on hatred of an extremely powerful alliance inevitably makes zero headway in their crusade while the average line member loses ships and has no visible impact or personal gain - there are going to be huge morale problems.



While I don't agree that GoonWaffe was founded on Hatred I will point out that hazing and bullying are part of goon culture. Goons came from SA and Something Awful is about as ~Animal Farm~ as you can possibly get on an internet forum. It's less that the CFC is a hate alliance and more that they are an invasive culture in eve that happens to jive well with the cold brutality of space.


In terms of moral I think you miss the point. Goons are all about heavy dis-confirmation bias and rationalizations to negate any sense of failure. ie "Didn't want that (thing) anyway." They are conditioned on their home site to shield themselves from any shame or social consequence by conforming to whatever is popular at the time. "Irony" is the bread and butter of "I was just pretending to be X". While some goons can be/are good people the pervasive influence of their culture is intensified by their lunch-table politics and leadership style.

Ultimately you cannot harm or demoralize goons by blowing up their ships. They are preconditioned to be selectively apathetic about any loss on their part that would otherwise be seen as meaningful. If you want to hurt goons then you need to stop giving them attention. Negate their pride with your own selective apathy.

CSM 12 Candidate
MASSADEATH
MASS A DEATH
Scumlords
#658 - 2014-06-24 17:59:09 UTC
Radric Davids wrote:
mamite and MoA do not see this as the grr project, hell the vast majority of them don't know what that is. You portray them as crusaders against the CFC, but in reality they are basically fleecing you for money.

All the enemies who actually pose a threat to CFC are organized. PL, N3 - organized. Random morons like marmite or small gangs in dek are not organized, and do not pose a threat. You will never, ever pose a threat because you think that working closely with other people is for 'dumb socials' and I highly doubt you even have mumble/ts3 installed on your computer. You will always be alone, and never be relevant



Firstly you dont know what MOA is thinking , and I will break my usual silence and actually reply to a CFC/Goonie scum lord.

Second., MOA is fully aware of what the Grr project is, and its great, it saves us from having to kill the CFC and goons in high sec so we can concentrate on 0.0

MOA's target's of choice are CFC and goons, we deploy and will go out of our way to kill them, and do everything in our power to disrupt them.

The "taking out the trash" deployments of the goons (3 deployments) against us are a testiment to us doing a good job against a very large and well organized group like the CFC and Goons. It was a dismal failure for the goons since they can really only kill static targets like POCOS and POS towers.

We are the last Bastion left in the north, and take the full brunt of your "forces"

Gevlon, seeing the good work we are doing and knowing that it takes isk to fight the evil scum lords CFC and Goonies, is giving us some isk to help out.

no strings attached... we are a fully independant alliance with no one but us calling the shots...and no RMT weasalage involved at the comand levels.

we thank him for his support. And we will push on and forward against the CFC and goons.

Gevlon at least has a vision, and some forward thinking on this matter and the plague of the blue donut. Which is more than I can say for the CFC and Goonie leaders (save Sion Kumitomo from GoonWaffe who is IMO the only one that has a brain in his head and possibly could be the games best hope from the goon side of things)

so..unless you want to "hellcamp" us for maybe 3-4 months... we are not going away, and the isk is 100% being used to fund killing CFC and goonies on the battlefield.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#659 - 2014-06-24 18:06:33 UTC
MASSADEATH wrote:

-snip-



Now, I'll admit I'm not always on top of EVE news here, but even I would've noticed of Goons engaged in a capital brawl with MoA. If you wanna keep pretending that you're causing trouble to Goons by doing tiny little hit and run maneuvers, go right ahead.

I'll be waiting with a bucket of popcorn when you bring your capitals out and get steamrolled so hard they'll need putty knives to scrape you off the floor.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#660 - 2014-06-24 18:14:33 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
MASSADEATH wrote:

-snip-



Now, I'll admit I'm not always on top of EVE news here, but even I would've noticed of Goons engaged in a capital brawl with MoA. If you wanna keep pretending that you're causing trouble to Goons by doing tiny little hit and run maneuvers, go right ahead.

I'll be waiting with a bucket of popcorn when you bring your capitals out and get steamrolled so hard they'll need putty knives to scrape you off the floor.

every so often moa manages to get a tower up and we bulldoze it to remind them that they were kicked out of the CFC for being woefully incompetent

they're a little bitter about that still